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Oct 25, 2017
1,103
Konoha
Well I feel like this is complicated, because obviously you can't paint everyone who cares about Social Justice negatively, and you can't paint everyone who feels like some "SJW's" go overboard as being knuckle-dragging misogynists.

Essentially, most people care about social justice, obviously, most people agree that people deserve equal rights, only a rare sort of people actually don't believe in that.

Some accusations against some SJW's, or rather the perception about them by many people are...

  1. Accusations of "slacktivism", basically hopping onto "justice bandwagons" without actually caring very deeply or being very knowledgeable about a subject. There have been questions about the "genuineness" of many of the people who rant about it online, or if they are simply doing it because it's a popular thing.

  2. Pathologizing their opponent, many people who don't have degrees in sociology or psychology, in the "movement" spend a lot of time playing arm-chair analyst with people they've never met on the internet, and attacking them based on what they perceive to be as psychological or mental deficiencies.

  3. Lacking sense of humor or taking some jokes too seriously, or the proverbial "making a mountain out of a molehille". The idea that some of the things that get brigaded against weren't really worth it, or there was no reason to get upset about it.

  4. Not being able to engage in constructive discussions and getting emotional or angry as opposed to being logical and arguing their points in a calm rational manner.

  5. The idea that many of them are just as hateful and mean as what they accuse their opponents of being, but simply reserve their bigotry for whites and men.
So yea, that is a few of the perspectives. I'm not saying these are accurate, but these are the perspectives of many people who just don't "get" a lot of the things that we who stand for social justice take very seriously.

There are a few issues why this is... First, like any group on the internet there isn't really a "leader", so someone can rant about Social Justice, but genuinely not be a good or "well" person, so since there really isn't a mechanism to "get membership" or to get excommunicated officially by any kind of structure, anyone can kind of hop into the discussion because it's diplomatic.

So some of these more outlandish types have a louder voice thus get more attention and legitimacy by people who wish to bring into question the entire idea of "Social Justice" on the internet or don't understand our movement. It's the same thing with these social justice warrior cringe compilation videos that go viral on social media.

The second part is that a significant portion of the social justice base is very young, so you have a lot of young passionate voices who may not have the most experience communicating in effective ways.

Part of that is also, it's a passionate topic, many people take it very seriously, so it can get very heated, when you're talking about sexism, and racism, and rights, these are obviously very serious issues that warrant attention. Some people get so heated about some of the topics that they forget that there is another human being at the end of the discussion, and forget that there is even common-ground to be had.

Both sides suffer both from the limitations of internet communication, and the limited bandwidth that a primarily text-based medium offers us, AND about the common humanity both sides have, which kind of occurs often in debates and discussions on the internet totally separate from this stuff.

And finally, some SJW's are simply trolls, as in some of them actually don't care about the stuff at all and pretend to care about the stuff just to stoke the flames and piss people off. Some of them may be people pretending to be SJW's, or they may be SJW's that say outlandish things specifically to get reactions, or simply because they think it's funny, and some people don't realize they are being facetious.
Also because an image problem is by nature limited to "image"... it's a matter of incorrect mass perception
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
4chan and other shitholes are doing a good job spreading their "anti-SJW" Nazi shit all over the internet. Nearly all of the "anti-SJWs" you will find online end up becoming neo-Nazis later on as they get further indoctrinated into /pol/ culture.

There is nothing that a progressive minded person can really do about this because the people spreading the garbage don't listen to the left - they only listen to a curated right-wing propaganda site like Breitbart or Daily Stormer that filters out all reasonable voices and amplifies the most insane.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
I think the problem is that people on the internet take screenshots of what teenagers post on Tumblr, and use them as examples of what all activists want. It's not that simple.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I find a lot of it comes from the usual suspects anyway.

That said there's nothing wrong with the movement being introspective about itself.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I mean not really. People who believe in justice for all we're always patronized. Also social justice Warrior is like the dumbest name in the world.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Standing up for marginalized people will always have an image problem. Go look up what the mainstream political press had to say about civil rights leaders like MLK in the 60s.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
There may be a minority of extremists/stupidity that could be labelled SJW in an unironic sense, but the vast, VAST majority of the time the term is used by a troll/bigot to simply denote someone who gives a shit about social justice.

There is no image problem, just disgusting humans on the right trying to shit on people who actually care.
 

Earthstrike

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,232
Let's be clear about one thing. The conservatives who talk about SJWs are not arguing in good faith. No matter how much you work on the "image" it will always be denigrated by the right. Let's not forget that society never even considered abortion clinic protestors SJWs. People who, week after week, without fail, would go to a clinic to yell at pregnant woman, but all of a sudden now people are worried about the tone and approach of social issues? Please, it's such a false narrative.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
This has been an issue for a long while. PC Principal was introduced in South Park back in 2015 and probably marks the begining of the more modern "PC Culture" backlash.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,695
For a long time I've thought that the "SJW" as protrayed by the alt-right doesn't actually exist and is just a misunderstanding of joke posts on tumblr. That said I do have a friend who has just gotten... weird in the last few years. I live in a famously liberal town and it's a nice bubble to be in but it's been weird seeing someone get so needlessly vitriolic in such a short period of time.

So I guess maybe those people do exist, but they're such a tiny number of people I'm pretty sure you can just immediately ignore anyone who uses the term SJW unironically. Especially given that for the most part SJW just tends to mean "literally any person who has ever cared about someone or something that is not themselves". There's nobody not a moron using that term unironically. I deleted a guy I knew from University off Facebook the other day after I saw a bunch of posts bemoaning SJWs from him and he was exactly the kind of perosn you'd expect it from.
 

Shabutaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
I think 1 and 4 are a real problem. Especially here on Era. A lot of people who mean well but lack understanding of nuance and just echo vague talking points instead of their own thoughts. It's not so much pretending to care cause it popular, it's caring, but not caring deeply enough to investigate thoroughly into topics. Just adding another item to a list of things that are wrong to shout at when it comes up again.
People feel angry but don't communicate effectively, and this growing sentiment that "we won't be civil to people who literally want to kill us" has made discourse ugly and often impossible. (Which as a queer black man I think sometimes applies but not as often as people invoke it)
But I also like to think that "Angry SJW" is a starting step for a lot of young people to become real activists and read more and get involved. So even if it's bad publicity I think it's propelling people into a better direction. Being exposed to social justice issues through clips, tweets and Tumblr posts has an array of short comings but it's made good messages spread super easily.
 
Feb 16, 2018
1,561
If someone is complaining about SJW chances are they have some questionable social opinions. It's a dumb term too, standing up for social justice is a good thing.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I avoid people who use the term SWJ tbh. They're almost always idiots.
Much like "PC", it was originally a term from left/liberal folks criticizing their obnoxious extreme flank that got appropriated and ruined by the right wing.
No, it predates 2015 by a long shot
Yeah, it's from over 2 decades before that. "Politically Incorrect" got its title riffing on the term
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
America has a social justice problem and it has since before it was America.

The red pill anti SJW status quo assholes have always been there to oppose justice in this country.

Like someone said earlier, MLK Jr was not loved or hailed as a hero during his lifetime of working for civil rights and against poverty. It wasn't until he was killed and his message co-opted and controlled did he become someone conservatives pretend to admire.

Literally Black Lives Matter is treated now how MLK Jr was treated then; with the same critiques of holding up traffic and such bullshit
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
The only reason it has an image problem is because of insecure internet tough guys who see standing up or having empathy for minorities and women as weak.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
Much like "PC", it was originally a term from left/liberal folks criticizing their obnoxious extreme flank that got appropriated and ruined by the right wing.

Yeah, it's from over 2 decades before that. "Politically Incorrect" got its title riffing on the term
Hence "Modern Backlash". The language used to describe and mock activists is not the same as the PC backlash of the 90s despite other similarities.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
Standing up for marginalized people will always have an image problem. Go look up what the mainstream political press had to say about civil rights leaders like MLK in the 60s.
lunch_kapernick1.0.jpg
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Cobra Commander does his best to make the Joes look bad too. Doesn't make them the good guys.
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,739
welcome, nowhere
So you mean it's not Single Jewish Woman? Where have I been all this time.


Jk. I'm very progressive, so I've been called SJW a few times. It's really irritating when you get told that the world doesn't work this way, and that most people are fine being racists/homophobes/transphobes/xenophobes. I simply like people when people treat each other with respect.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
Standing up for marginalized people will always have an image problem. Go look up what the mainstream political press had to say about civil rights leaders like MLK in the 60s.

Pretty much this. "Social Justice" will always have an image problem to people who don't care or those who like to be bigoted towards minority issues.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,072
I think the problem is that people on the internet take screenshots of what teenagers post on Tumblr, and use them as examples of what all activists want. It's not that simple.

it used to mean immature people on tumblr but now the right paints anyone arguing for some empathy and compassion as an SJW. Term has been co opted by the right.
 

Shabutaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
Not really. Cause Kaep told people and continue to tell them why he was kneeling. Yet they take it as everything but that. Only so much you can do about people that want to believe 2+2=5
I think Kaep existing as a positive example of a protestor and leader doesn't negate that fact that a lot of people don't do a good job communicating thier own talking points.
Kaep is great. But I don't think he's what people are referring to when they say SJW.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
I think the problem is that people on the internet take screenshots of what teenagers post on Tumblr, and use them as examples of what all activists want. It's not that simple.

This is a big part of it. A lot of people's (especially teenage boys) first impressions of feminism come from certain groups publicly mocking some random radfem tumblr blog they found that day. It then goes from there.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I think Kaep existing as a positive example of a protestor and leader doesn't negate that fact that a lot of people don't do a good job communicating thier own talking points.
Kaep is great. But I don't think he's what people are referring to when they say SJW.
Examples?
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Social justice doesn't have any charismatic outspoken leaders with rabid million strong followings like the alt-right does that's true.

But the nature of social justice also hinders the rise of cult figures like those found in authoritanism.

So it's kind of working as intended. Social justice has a hard time fighting the propaganda war because one of its core tenets is to reject propaganda. That some self-identified SJWs fall prey to embarrassing extremism doesn't detract from the movement as a whole, unless you were already inclined towards apathy/fencesitting.
 
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ISOM

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,684
I think Kaep existing as a positive example of a protestor and leader doesn't negate that fact that a lot of people don't do a good job communicating thier own talking points.
Kaep is great. But I don't think he's what people are referring to when they say SJW.

I may be wrong but what he's saying with that post is that if people can't get Kaep's issues correctly without overreacting then it doesn't matter what anyone does. Everything is an overreaction to the right and a lot of centrists when you're trying to argue for empathy.

MLK basically argued the same thing. Lots of people prefer their lives to be without tension and without upsetting the status quo. You get called an SJW when you upset that
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I may be wrong but what he's saying with that post is that if people can't get Kaep's issues correctly without overreacting then it doesn't matter what anyone does. Everything is an overreaction to the right and a lot of centrists when you're trying to argue for empathy.

MLK basically argued the same thing. Lots of people prefer their lives to be without tension and without upsetting the status quo. You get called an SJW when you upset that
yep, and MLK was demonized in his own time. Saying he was doing more damage to blacks than not
 

cyress8

Avenger
I may be wrong but what he's saying with that post is that if people can't get Kaep's issues correctly without overreacting then it doesn't matter what anyone does. Everything is an overreaction to the right and a lot of centrists when you're trying to argue for empathy.

MLK basically argued the same thing. Lots of people prefer their lives to be without tension and without upsetting the status quo. You get called an SJW when you upset that
Yep, as soon as Black Lives Matter started, here they come with All Lives Matter. Nothing you said to explain the reason for the movement made one fucking bit of difference. They did their best to shout it down every time.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
Kind of does. The movement hasn't really pushed what it really is so it has allowed for the alt-right and others to tarnish the image. Like, I'm sure if you explained to people that SJW means standing up for inequalities in society and what not they'd think it's more noble but no one is really hammering that image everywhere. I think SJW just assume people will not see the propaganda for what it is but it's quite obvious they're losing the mindshare war.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
You can't normally find a way to make the words Social, Justice, and Warrior in any situation sound negative (especially when put together!); but a corner of the internet has managed to do it via effective racial propaganda. it's not a PR or image problem, it's a sorting problem. People can get inadvertently sorted into a side and then be forced to believe that equal rights could be a negative.
 

The Appetizer

Member
Apr 24, 2018
289
I think a large part of the problem is that "anti-SJW" types don't care about rejecting the ideas of the social justice perspective per se. It's mostly about winning to them, which means they don't have to understand and engage with the things they are arguing against. In fact I think the appeal of their position is that they want to be able to do whatever they feel like without actually thinking about their actions. And if that's the motivation, they can't even truly consider the social justice perspective or they have already "lost". The first bullet point you brought up particularly illustrates this. Why would you care if your opponent was taking a certain stance because it was "popular" if it was also the correct stance? This comes off as just trying to "win" the argument without actually responding to any of the positions.

That being said, I think it's lazy for progressives to punt on the problem and say "there's nothing we can do, it's all their fault!" A lot of times it feels to me like there's some initial premise that the social justice perspective takes for granted when we talk that hasn't been properly introduced to the other side. I'm not sure what this premise is, but consider something like "individual actions in aggregate, even seemingly benign ones, create and reinforce social norms which in turn shape individual actions." The social justice perspective takes this for granted, but if someone hasn't learned that this is true, of course a lot of social justice complaints are going to be answered with "yeah, but who cares?"
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Kind of, but it's something that comes with the turf. The opposition will do everything to discredit you and the moderates/centrists will try to make themselves appear more rational by also labeling you as crazy.

Granted this exists for the right as well, but I would argue the left deals with this much more than the other.
 

Shabutaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
I may be wrong but what he's saying with that post is that if people can't get Kaep's issues correctly without overreacting then it doesn't matter what anyone does. Everything is an overreaction to the right and a lot of centrists when you're trying to argue for empathy.

MLK basically argued the same thing. Lots of people prefer their lives to be without tension and without upsetting the status quo. You get called an SJW when you upset that
That's true, but I don't think it's always about getting to the right. I think Kaep spread his message and mobilized moderates and leftists. I think he was pretty effective at it. People are a mosaic of opinion and a progressive may care about health care and homelessness but not be too invested in police brutality and racial issues. Effective communication and messaging draws these people into your fold. Progressives aren't born woke to every subject. I think a lot of people do a great job at this. I think a loud proportion doesn't.
 

M1chl

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,054
Czech Republic
I think OP you got your answers. I also think "SJW" is really dumb name, because I honestly don't see any genuine SJW. It's just self-righteous groups shouting "we are right" and from the other side you can hear "NO, we are right". I am not talking about "#bothSides", but this point from OP:

Not being able to engage in constructive discussions and getting emotional or angry as opposed to being logical and arguing their points in a calm rational manner.

This is by my own humble opinion absolutely biggest obstacle to move somewhere, make world better place, because it's just to closed echo chambers, and slight deviations is called "fence sitters". Maybe those people just want to have more info on the issue and they honestly don't know what to think.

It's just a shit show all around, people need to be willing to talk about issues, even when they disagree with premise of the topic at hand, in calm and rational manner, when people start throwing feelings, insults, labels to "other side" then it is game over. And we are at point 0 with that particular topic. Or better put on yet another status quo.

That's why I don't really engage in this conversation, well not only that, but I am ignorant about USA issues, since I am living in kind of different society in center of the Europe. But mainly, because there is never a discussion, "I am right and you can fuck off", that's what you get, at least on the internet a here is not much better. Only better thing than anywhere else on the internet is that, people get banned, but aside from that, it's the same mentality. Like North vs. South.

This is how I am seeing. Besides talking about things it's nice, but only results counts, so even if the discussion went somewhere it maybe stay it there and nothing change.
 

Host Samurai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,158
A buddy of mine said, "this looks like SJW trash" when seeing TLoU2 E3 trailer. Wasn't sure if he was trolling me or not, but the fact that it was even brought up made me raise an eyebrow. So yeah, I do think that people love to throw that term all over the place.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
I do not care that my enemies critique my apparel. I care only that my actions and contributions to the world disrupt and halt their destructive behavior.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,164
Manhattan, New York
The people who use the term 'SJW' are part of an apathy culture that relies, expects, and celebrates not giving a shit about anything. In this culture, the less you care about things, the more you are 'in the know' or 'cool'. That's where the 'warrior' part in this comes from, and participants occupy a convenient wedge of self-justification. "It's not that I'm against social justice, but see what a Warrior this dude is being". The implication always being "You know if I tried, I bet I could be for social justice without being such a dick". Of course, they would never 'try'.

This kind of moral dancing and skirting obviously worsens over time to a point where social justice in itself is no longer seen as anything to be concerned about.