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Does some people still believe that 60 is not mandatory for next gen consoles?

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,647
Yeah, I hate this argument.

I have a gaming PC. I hate using it. I want the console experience with 60fps standard across the board. I wish the console manufacturers had the courage to force devs to target 60.
You wish console manufacturers go against peoples demands? You wish for them to go against what actually sells and is easiest to market? You wish for them to limit what kind of games developers want to make?
I'm glad you're in tiny minority with this.
 

molnizzle

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,576
You wish console manufacturers go against peoples demands? You wish for them to go against what actually sells and is easiest to market? You wish for them to limit what kind of games developers want to make?
I'm glad you're in tiny minority with this.
People’s demands suck sometimes, loot boxes and DLC cosmetics are very profitable. If everything was 60 then there wouldn’t be 30fps games to “look better” and sell better, the playing field would be level. Developers could still make any type of game they wanted, every game would just be more responsive and feel better to play.
 

Vengeance

Member
Jan 11, 2018
2,826
You wish console manufacturers go against peoples demands? You wish for them to go against what actually sells and is easiest to market? You wish for them to limit what kind of games developers want to make?
I'm glad you're in tiny minority with this.
People want what's best for them. News at 11. Nothing wrong with that either. Not everybody wants visuals over performance.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
2,621
You wish for them to limit what kind of games developers want to make?
It's really annoying that people can't see how mandating 60fps limits design.

It just sets a ceiling on everything the next gen is capable of for 7 years or so. Imagine if we were still bound to base Xbone @60 performance in 2019.

Consoles should always be the floor and honestly it's better that way, speaking as a console player. People demanding 60 minimum just need to suck it up and invest in PC imo. The option for 60 exists there for 90% of titles.

I would like some sort of slider on console to turn off certain settings however. Too many games now with very annoying particle effects.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,374
People’s demands suck sometimes, loot boxes and DLC cosmetics are very profitable. If everything was 60 then there wouldn’t be 30fps games to “look better” and sell better, the playing field would be level. Developers could still make any type of game they wanted, every game would just be more responsive to the player.
In that case 60fps becomes the new 30fps eventually, when people want to move onto 120fps,v and graphic fidelity is held back even more.
 

molnizzle

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,576
In that case 60fps becomes the new 30fps eventually, when people want to move onto 120fps,v and graphic fidelity is held back even more.
Now you're getting it!

Though I highly doubt the same demand would ever be there. The jump from 60 to 120 is nice, but it's nowhere near the difference you see going from 30 to 60. It's like going from SD to full HD vs full HD to 4K.
 

Sub Boss

Member
Nov 14, 2017
12,165
Next gen will see more 60fps games

This one we saw more making the jump to 60, specially series that aren't open world, Resident Evil was always 30fps to push graphics now its no longer the case even on REmake2.
Kingdom Hearts 3 shot for 60fps even if it stayed 45 ish depending on console.

As limitations decrease there is no longer a need to keep low framerates, However there will be always games that push for 30fps as well for an add benefit
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,522
Depends on how heavily they use ray tracing imo, you probably won’t get 4K naitive 60 FPS if the game is doing tons of ray tracing, it’s going to come down to what the developer envisions
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
748
nobody expects devs to push 60fps and give up many effects and visual things that make the game pop on the screen.

i would hope that they would at least give us the choice between performance or resolution and effects, like many X/Pro enhanced games.
 

JoelStinty

Member
Aug 15, 2019
105
I have no issue with 30FPS games. Expecting games to hit the marker of 60FPS is unrealistic especially in say physic based games or large open worlds. I would argue that it would be nice if developers capped to one or the other though. There are probably reasons why some games don't do this, but I think some of the more ergious frame drops come from uncapped games that actually run higher than a stable 30.

I would like it that gamers understand this isn't just a binary thing either. So much effects how a game runs, and some of the tricks that developers use to make their game work would probably cause games to crumble if played at higher frame rates. I think in fallout your neck for example is really Long in first person mode. Danny O'dwyer mentioned the other week that you don't actually jump in the outer wilds, the world falls from you. There are videos online that show this (can't find them at the moment) Game development isn't a linear thing, its problem solving, so to expecting this discussion to be simple as yes and no is a bit silly.
 

RingRang

Member
Oct 2, 2019
773
I'll keep saying this every 10 pages this thread hits, but if you're paying attention you'd notice that there has already been a push towards 60fps this generation among some of the biggest developers out there, and that is only going to increase next gen.

It continues to cost more and more money to make your game prettier. It costs far less to make it run at a higher frame rate.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,862
Scotland
I remember thinking before the PS4 and Xbone came out - surely we will get 1080p60, surely. Boy was I wrong in that thought. It would be great if the next-gen consoles give us that but 'Mandatory' - I doubt that. Could be wrong - time will tell.
 

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
380
I think a minimum of 30fps should be mandatory. Don't allow games that dip below that. Leave it up to devs to choose between 30fps and 60fps, maybe even both options in their games.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,363
The best looking games of next generation will be 30fps.

Like every generation.
Yeah, it's so strange.

Feels like we get this magical-thinking "Performance Finally Fixed Forevar!!!" sentiment at the start of every gen.

You'd think people would learn after experiencing the cold reality after a few cycles.
 

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
380
It's odd that people don't seem to understand that performance is up to the developer. They choose whether they want to aim for 30fps or 60fps.

We could've had neatly every game this gem be 60fps, they just wouldn't have looked as pretty. The developers chose what they felt was best
 

MrH

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,262
30fps is why I don't touch my consoles bar exclusives, it just feels horrible.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
717
Rochester NY
I know that every game will not target 60fps next gen, but this gen we have had a good improvement in performance overall. More big games pushing 60fps and for both 30fps and 60fps games the framerate has been more stable than previous gens. I hope this continues into next gen.
 
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Cloud-Strife

Cloud-Strife

Member
Sep 27, 2019
225
Putting them side by side isn't a fair comparison. When people say that they don't notice the difference they mean that they aren't bothered by it as long as the framerate is stable, not that they are incapable of telling the difference.
Run this vid in 60 FPS and report back:

Side by side is not a fair comparison? I don't get that.. the idea is to compare both games in the same sequence.

I will just believe that some people is born with a visual limitation that won't let them see over 24 or 30 fps. That's the only explanation for this.

I never said that 30 fps games are unplayable but 60 fps is a much much better experience. If some people watched that video in the quote don't see a difference.. I really don't know what to say anymore.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,647
Everyone says this but I feel frame rate plays a huge part in how a game looks in motion
of course a 60 fps game will look better than a 30fps game with the same graphical fidelity . And surely theres gonna be a graphical bump with next gen, but still. 60fps requires a lot of sacrificies whne you want to play games on consoles, especially open world games, I wish it was not the case. I wish you could crank all the graphics to ultra and still have 60fps at 4k. And you can do it, on high end PC , but consoles dont have that luxury
 

clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,451
Atlanta, GA
It’s really a shame. 1080/60FPS should be the bar before we start getting 4K shoved down our throats.

Hell, 30FPS isn’t even a consistent bar on consoles.
 

pj-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,172
We already get the option to choose between "performance" and "visuals" in a lot of games.

I bet lots of next gen games will have an option for "1440p 60fps" or "4k 30fps"
 

Pancracio17

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
7,434
I hope that diminishing returns in graphics tech make it so that 60 fps is more commonplace. The difference between 30fps and 60fps would be way more significant than 4k textures vs 8k textures. Though I guess with RTX in the mix thatll be still far away, theres no way consoles will run games with even limited RTX at 60 right?

More realistically, I hope games come with "performance vs graphics" modes, like how FFXV and many other games do it on XBox One X and PS4 Pro.
 

Trice

Member
Nov 3, 2018
1,891
Croatia
That's the main reason I don't own a console. I'd like to play some of the exclusives but 30 FPS is unplayable. Hell, even dropping from 60 to 45-50 is jarring as hell, let alone 30.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,173
People saying to "just buy a PC" really don't get it.
It's possible for people to want to play on consoles but still have a preference for frame rate. While PC gaming is a lot more convenient than it used to be, it's still a different experience from playing games on consoles.
And games built to run at 60 FPS on console will run even better on PC. 60 FPS is old news for a lot of PC gamers now.

Here's something else to consider, for people saying they want the best looking games they can get (implying 30 FPS):
Graphics age. Frame rate doesn't - at least not to the same extent.

Old games which run at ≤30 FPS look dated no matter how technically accomplished they were at the time, and play terribly today.
But old games which run at 60 FPS at least play well (and arguably look better, in my opinion).

I really hope for higher fps and even more reprojection/interpolation methods. (When done in engine the quality can/should be quite decent.)
While I prefer native frames, I'd be totally fine with reprojection being the new "TAA" of next generation if it helps make games more comfortable to play.

Nothing wrong with 30fps especially with bfi or interpolation.
What TV do you have that lets you use BFI at 30Hz?
I've only ever been able to get that using a CRT running at 60Hz with black frame insertion to halve it.

30 FPS at 60Hz BFI results in bad stuttering / double-images.
Here's an example of 24 FPS at 96, 72, 48, and 24 Hz:


24 FPS displayed at 24Hz on a CRT like that is the only time I've ever found that frame rate to be acceptable for movies without having to interpolate to 120 FPS or higher.
The downside is that 24Hz flickers a lot (this is why movies used to be called "flicks").

I really wonder how demanding these'll be on PC if they're 30fps on consoles, given how humoungous the CPU upgrade PS5/XB2 suppossedly is.
This is my main concern, and why I'm waiting for the consoles and game to be out before considering a hardware upgrade. It's already difficult enough to run some current-gen games at 60 FPS because they just don't scale like you'd hope on PC.

480p/60fps>1080p/30fps? Yeah don't think so.
Frame rate is more important - though I'd obviously prefer other compromises to dropping the resolution that low. I think it's unlikely that something which can run at 1080p30 would need to drop the resolution to 480p to achieve 60 FPS though. More realistically, it'd be 720p60 vs 1080p30.
I played through Deus Ex: Mankind Divided at 720p50 (at 50Hz) on my PC with a mixture of medium/low settings, because that's the only way I could achieve a consistently high frame rate (never dropping below 50) on that system at the time (i5-2500K/GTX 960). That game ran at 1080p30 on PS4.

People need to understand that doubling the framerate almost always mean doubling the render cost.
Quadrupling the resolution from 1080p to 4k means quadrupling the render cost. […]
All the more reason to focus on frame rate over resolution. Spending your GPU budget on 1440p60 makes a lot more sense than 4K30.

60fps for some games just isn’t necessary.
I can't think of a game which is not improved by running at higher frame rates.
Even in slower games like Luigi's Mansion 3, I'm having to switch on interpolation to 120 FPS on my TV because it looks so bad at 30.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
4,794
I don't get why it's so difficult to understand that devs are going to keep pushing visuals & that means 30fps, you can't have RDR2 & it be 60fps. You can't have both.
Personally i would prefer if devs like ND & Rockstar keep pushing the bar, 30fps sucks a bit but damn the games look good no?
 

Storminormin

Member
Jan 14, 2018
150
Devs/publishers will continue to do what they want. They aren't going to follow some arbitrary rule that a community imposes on them.
60 sure does feel a lot better than 30, but 30 fps is still completely fine in many games.

Expect 30FPS games to exist, for now and forever. I do expect next generation, and future generations to at least give console users more options however.
 

Arulan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,346
You shouldn't be asking for consoles to change their one-size-for-everyone, but rather the power for you to create your own. Imagine having an actual say in how you play your games.
 

Loadout

Member
Oct 26, 2017
585
Israel
Side by side is not a fair comparison? I don't get that.. the idea is to compare both games in the same sequence.

I will just believe that some people is born with a visual limitation that won't let them see over 24 or 30 fps. That's the only explanation for this.

I never said that 30 fps games are unplayable but 60 fps is a much much better experience. If some people watched that video in the quote don't see a difference.. I really don't know what to say anymore.
Well, yeah, because when you're playing a game on 30 FPS you don't have a monitor next to you showcasing the game on 60 FPS just to tease you. There is no doubt 60 FPSis objectively better, but some people are don't mind the difference that much.
 

Blade Runner

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,639
This was the same sentiment when the XB1 and PS4 were released.

It's never gonna happen. The temptation to put shiny things ahead of framerate is too much.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,338
60fps has been possible for about as long as we've had video games so if 30fps wasn't fine then it would have been abolished by now.
 
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Cloud-Strife

Cloud-Strife

Member
Sep 27, 2019
225
I'm starting to believe that people don't even turn off interpolation on their 4k tv's and that's why they don't see that much of a difference.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
758
Yes. A 2020 console is going to have Zen 2 CPU with 8 Cores 16 Threads, at least 16GB RAM, an RX5700+ tier GPU with hardware Ray Tracing support. Pretty much what PCs of today have minus RT on AMD side. If PS4 Pro can do 1440p-1800p upscaled to 4k with what amounts to an RX480 then next gen can do 4K60 or 4K30 with RT. I would wager a bet they wont be much more than £500/$600 which is far cheaper than buying a new PC of similar spec.
Even a 2080ti can't do ray tracing at 4k at reasonable framerates, you really think AMD's last minute implementation thrown in will be able to? For console pricing? I wouldn't hold my breath on that. I'd be amazed if it could handle even 1rpp at 4k/30.