• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
I think his base of idiot voters will back him no matter what. But the politicians in Washington? Nope. While there are a few that would fall on a sword for Trump, I think most secretly can't stand him. If that tide has a valid reason to turn on him I think they will. They are all weak, it wouldn't even be that hard.
Yeah, but they already can't stand him. They're loyal because the base is loyal and they pander to the base. Personal belief and integrity don't really enter the equation. You think McConnell likes Trump? Of course not. But if he turned on him, his base would eat him alive and elect some Don Blankenship kook.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
like there's a clear and present distinction between "skepticism" and just posting "ugh NOTHING'S gonna HAPPEN how come EVERYTHING's so AWFUL" in every thread tangentially related to the investigation ad infinitum
 

TheKidObi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
969
Y'all gotta be carefully jumping to conclusion, just cause a news outlet reports a information doesn't mean it's always true . Espacally when it comes to trump news, it makes the media look bad since everyone that hated trump was so excited about the news, now the guy in charge of trump investigation just came out and said there's inaccuracies in the buzzfeed report.
 
Last edited:

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,274
given that the premise of donald trump facing justice for constant and flagrant violation of state and federal laws does not necessitate any of these priors (laws can be systemically applied unequally and unfairly with single particular rich white dudes winding up in jail, for instance), you seem to be...

...wait for it...

...falling over yourself to justify disruptive posting

Sorry, it's a constant in any Trump thread and this one seemed as good as any.

given that the premise of donald trump facing justice for constant and flagrant violation of state and federal laws does not necessitate any of these priors (laws can be systemically applied unequally and unfairly with single particular rich white dudes winding up in jail, for instance), you seem to be...

...wait for it...

...falling over yourself to justify disruptive posting

Sorry, it's a constant in any Trump thread and this one seemed as good as any.

I mean go ahead and figure it out for yourself. You're allowed to figure out how you feel about someone by how you feel about their clearly communicated positions. He's entitled to feel the way he feels and you're entitled to argue for or against his positions? If somebody is calling for a ban on subjectively bad positions I'd say that's problematic. But the post history is used as a tool to decide how you feel about the context of their last post. It's possible to restrict who sees your posts but if you believe in - and can back up / what you're saying then go ahead and say it. If your post history creates contradictory or intellectually dishonest positions or suspicious negative space, then go ahead and adapt.

The specific content of this story was not my sole concern. As Midnight Jon pointed out, I am derailing by discussing a broader topic. I actually looked at the guy in questions post history. He seems to not like Trump and not like the wall, but mostly post about games. I think it is very likely he is feeling emotional about this stuff and reacts strongly in black or white. I don't think he is an agent of chaos, a spy, a secret conservative, a troll, or a leftist who hates Democrats. So I figured it out for myself and it didn't jive with the vague accusation of being transparent.
 
Last edited:

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
This was a completely unsubstantiated story that not a single other major outlet backed. It is not a mistake. Buzz feed published something with questionable sourcing. They were called out for it. They tried to make news. Period. They were so desperate in their attempt to show a smoking gun that they used questionable sources. That is beyond irresponsible, That isn't a mistake, it's complete bullshit and pandering for clicks. Just look at this thread and the pure frothing at the mouth for people who wanted this to be true, almost zero discussion on "hey, should we question how legit this is?". No, just an echo chamber of Trump prison/impeachment talk.


The specific wording of the Mueller statement does far more to substantiate the underlying reporting than it does to refute it. This isn't my opinion it's a plain English definition of the highly specific and unusual phrasing used. The alternative explanation is that the special counsel put out a very crisp and unusual statement without showing a lawyer or an English teacher.

I am now very sure now that Buzzfeed have mischaracterized an as yet unknown detail in the story and simultaneously that the story itself is not being refuted. Because that's what just happened in plain English with serious legal minds arguing over an opaque specific.

That is currently the situation. There's zero contradictory facts at this time. And Buzzfeed's very serious and likely expensive legal team is confident enough to stand by it at least for now.

Perhaps they'll evolve on their position overnight. But that still won't make the Mueller statement a broad, holistic or umbrella refutation by the mankiest stretch of the imagination.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
like there's a clear and present distinction between "skepticism" and just posting "ugh NOTHING'S gonna HAPPEN how come EVERYTHING's so AWFUL" in every thread tangentially related to the investigation ad infinitum
my favorite is when they're doing like babies first philosophizing or whatever

what a world, what a world it is. where a man such as this can commit so many crimes. and yet nobody cares. people let him. again and again. and again. when will you care? when will you stand up? God dammit you need to stand up for something. don't let him do it again.

and yet you will. God dammit.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Like I said earlier, I'm skeptical of Mueller's commitment toward selling a case to the public about Trump himself. Even if it's a middle ground half right/half wrong thing, Mueller's team didn't have to completely kill the whole thing with a vague statement like that.

I'm still putting my faith in Buzzfeed here.
If they say "BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate" it means it's not accurate. Not accurate !== false.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I mean go ahead and figure it out for yourself. You're allowed to figure out how you feel about someone by how you feel about their clearly communicated positions. He's entitled to feel the way he feels and you're entitled to argue for or against his positions? If somebody is calling for a ban on subjectively bad positions I'd say that's problematic. But the post history is used as a tool to decide how you feel about the context of their last post. It's possible to restrict who sees your posts but if you believe in - and can back up / what you're saying then go ahead and say it. If your post history creates contradictory or intellectually dishonest positions or suspicious negative space, then go ahead and adapt.

But if you're asking me to accept that a vaguely corrected but otherwise vitally uncontested correction of a single news story is the first example of REAL fake news then... I mean. Come on? I'm not saying he's an alt or a bot or a troll* but if he's literally suggesting no fake news happened until today then go ahead and defend that position.

The poster can defend himself and his history speaks for itself, no? He can make his own case against the following summary:

My objective argument is that the buzzfeed story has not actually been refuted or denied by Mueller, but rather firmly redefined in one admittedly important semantic aspect, and that the poster you're defending (sort of) is hilariously wrong to suggest that "finally, after all this, a real fake news happened and it was the Libs!"

I expect buzzfeed to update but they need to clarify the gap between "Characterization of facts" and the naked facts themselves.

Meuller's statement has not refuted the story, but rather the inferred accusation of specific individual intent. I have no doubt it's important but it's very precise and granular.
r/murderedbywords
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
It's crazy and dangerous to think that trump's impeachability and/or his worth as a president hinges on the results of this investigations and not on his catastrophic incompetency or his disregard for the rule of law.
His worth as a president doesn't at all hinge on this. Honestly it's pretty low on the list of reasons why he's so unpopular. The only reason it feels important is it's the only thing that might possibly penetrate his base and make him impeachable before an election, but it probably wouldn't change real world consequences that much whether or not that happens.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
frankly if this isn't "he didn't personally order cohen to lie" but rather "he had someone else order cohen to lie on his behalf" (ie, had Hicks send Cohen an email rather than personally telling Cohen to do it) i don't actually think there's a meaningful legal distinction

and that's the Significant Detail this seems to be coalescing around
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
Y'all gotta be carefully jumping to conclusion, just cause a news outlet reports a information doesn't mean it's always tyre . Espacally when it comes to trump news, it makes the media look bad since everyone that hated trump was so excited about the news, now the guy in charge of trump investigation just came out and said there's inaccuracies in the buzzfeed report.

Once again, the announcement from Mueller doesn't mean the report is wrong in its main assertion.

That and there's a lot of weight to this story because anyone who reported it had to know the stakes of doing so.
 

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,883
the Netherlands

In response to the statement tonight from the Special Counsel's spokesman: We stand by our reporting and the sources who informed it, and we urge the Special Counsel to make clear what he's disputing.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,244
New York City
His worth as a president doesn't at all hinge on this. Honestly it's pretty low on the list of reasons why he's so unpopular. The only reason it feels important is it's the only thing that might possibly penetrate his base and make him impeachable before an election, but it probably wouldn't change real world consequences that much whether or not that happens.

Then it is not important at all.
 

TheKidObi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
969
Once again, the announcement from Mueller doesn't mean the report is wrong in its main assertion.

That and there's a lot of weight to this story because anyone who reported it had to know the stakes of doing so.
I'm not disputing what buzzfeed or what mueller is saying, we don't know enough from mueller report to make any judgement. I'm just saying just cause a news source says something doesn't always mean it's true or all the info is true weather it's CNN, Fox News, Buzzfeed etc. espacally when the investigation is still on going, regardless of any new source I won't jump to any conclusion till mueller is done.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
frankly if this isn't "he didn't personally order cohen to lie" but rather "he had someone else order cohen to lie on his behalf" (ie, had Hicks send Cohen an email rather than personally telling Cohen to do it) i don't actually think there's a meaningful legal distinction

and that's the Significant Detail this seems to be coalescing around


There's also the distinct possibility that Buzzfeed has a piece of clarification that is good enough for reporting but nowhere near good enough for the case. News organizations are not obliged by the same standards and the Characterization problem is by default about how they characterized the alleged Mueller evidence, since the special counsel can't actually refute anything except that.

I'm not trying to be slippery here. That's the objective reality.

Mueller can't for example ask Trump's friends to confirm without subpoenas. Buzzfeed can and they can have confidence in that.
 

Doc Holliday

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,806
Question,

It seems really odd that the special counsel felt he needed to respond. What would be reasons why? Legally I mean.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
There's also the distinct possibility that Buzzfeed has a piece of clarification that is good enough for reporting but nowhere near good enough for the case. News organizations are not obliged by the same standards and the Characterization problem is by default about how they characterized the alleged Mueller evidence, since the special counsel can't actually refute anything except that.

I'm not trying to be slippery here. That's the objective reality.
exactly.

another bit of clarification is that this story was probably sourced from SDNY and not the SCO in the first place, per Wheeler

 
Status
Not open for further replies.