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Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
At least partially in response to this, Sanders has an email that I hope will diminish some of the voices still hoping for a third party.

https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/927619002477793280

The budgeting stuff is definitely a new talking point for him based on this last week of stories, and I agree with expanding access to voting in states that have to use Caucuses, but there's a decent chance that Super Delegate and Open Primary changes could totally fuck over the party in 2020. A 20-way shitshow primary flooded with Conservatives that aren't on the Republican side and no superdelegates to break ties or encourage losers of primaries to drop out sounds like the textbook way of creating a contested convention that just pisses everybody off and splinters the party even more.
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For me and alot of people I know who didn't vote in 2016 that is how we viewed the DNC for a long long time. If it takes a fucking shit show to even have a shot of fixing it so be it.

I'm personally done voting for "at least their not X", it's simply not enough for alot of people. It's definitely on my list of reasons I likely won't be living in the U.S. within 5 years.

Shitty 1 step forward two steps back centrism isn't enough.
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
So I agree that it highlights a problem, but not a problem of the DNC literally actively helping Hillary win the primary. I think this paragraph helps highlight the REAL problem:



Howard Dean pointed this out on Twitter too. This agreement you are talking about was entirely about how they were gonna plan the GENERAL election not the presidential primaries so it had nothing to do with the primaries.

Now I know EXACTLY what you are going to say so I'll predict it here: "But this agree was made in 2015 before the first primary votes were even cast."

Yes and that IS a problem but the problem wasn't necessarily one of maliciously trying to sabotage Bernie's campaign. Rather the ACTUAL problem was a general theme that we saw in not just the primary, but also in the general election (from not only democrats but a shitload of non-democrats to be frank):

The Problem of People Just ASSUMING That Hillary was Going to Win

First I'll list out how you saw this shit in the general election:
- Numerous anti-Trump republicans would still refuse to endorse Hillary because they assumed that she would win that they need to run against her later
- Numerous anti-Hillary progressives would keep focusing on attacking Hillary because they assumed she was going to win anyway so they wouldn't have to worry about Trump winning
- Hillary's team didn't have a concession speech planned intact they stupidly had fireworks planned that ended up going to waste
- Trump's team was expecting Hillary to win that's why you had all the signs of Trump planning to launch Trump TV and talking about "Rigged Elections" as though he had already lost
- Media loved covering nothing burger Hillary scandals (like the AP story about Clinton Foundation donors that turned out to be fucking nothing) because it got them views and they assumed that Hillary was going to win anyway

Now lets list out all the ways that the DNC and Democrats (and others) let their "Well Hillary's going to win the primary anyway" attitude cause them to make decisions:
- The agreement about the general you just mentioned that was signed an entire year before it needed to be signed
- numerous people who would have otherwise run in the Democratic Presidential primaries chose not to at least in part because they assumed "well Hillary's going to win anyway"
- the complete lack of debates compared to 2008, because if you think the winner has already won, then you think the debates are a waste of ad money
- the Media chose they didn't give a shit about any of Hillary's challengers because hey Hillary's going to win the primary anyway, right?
- the numerous superdelegates that didn't even wait until endorsing Hillary because they figured it didn't matter because Hillary was going to win anyway

Does that make sense?

Seth Rich's family has made it VERY clear they hate the pro-wikileaks angle about Seth Rich's murder, but maybe instead have suspicions like Donna has about Kremlin connected people having murdered Seth Rich. That would mean they are still staunchly pro-Democrat.

100%

Um what is your source for the bolded? The memo from HFA dictates no such thing.




Im sorry but what? Not know to ask? Is his campaign run by teenagers or something?

If you are going to enter an agreement to fund an organization and you know your biggest competition will be or has already entered into a similar agreement to do the same it is your responsibility to know the terms, whatever they may be, of your opponent before you fork over one red cent of your money. I mean this is elementary. I not sure what their previous financial standing is supposed to mean but Bernie is 100% at fault for not asking the terms the DNC agreed with Clinton on, point blank.

For the bolded -

1) We know that Clinton's team sent the MoU per the memo itself (From Mook to Dacey). So it's being written from that perspective.

2) Line near the end -"Further we (Clinton) understand you (DNC) may enter into similar agreements (NOT the JFA, which you keep continuously referring to, but a "we straight out pay your bills and you give us control" agreement, which is separate and completely different and something that is not coming through to you) with other candidates (Sanders). So the Clinton team is saying "hey DNC, we understand you might enter similar agreements with other candidates". Which..means that the DNC would have to tell Sanders, since this agreement is not a standard agreement. It is not the agreement Dean is talking about.

Once again, I reiterate - almost no one knew about this agreement. Brazile didn't even know about this agreement. That's stated in the book and disputed by no one. This is not the Joint Fundraising Agreement, which is what Sanders had been led to believe was the agreement. Because if you read the memo carefully, you see the next line. "The attached Joint Fundraising Agreement will be entered into by HFA and the DNC (as well as by State Parties). So when Sanders asks "what agreement does the Clinton camp have with you, DNC?", the DNC's response is "See this attached Joint Fundraising Agreement", which has no indication of the other agreement involved. This idea that Sanders has a magic 8 ball saying "hey, there's this other agreement on top of the normal agreement that Clinton signed that you should ask about" is ludicrous. Or put it this way - neither Clinton nor Obama had a similar agreement in 2008.

Sanders asked the DNC about any agreements that Clinton signed. DNC gave him the boilerplate answer (probably because the person being asked may not have even known about the agreement Clinton and the DNC had done). The Joint Fundraising Agreement is not an agreement to keep the lights on at the DNC. I think you are conflating the two again. They are completely different. Clinton not only agreed to fundraise with the DNC, but was asked to pay their bills at that moment, and that was a second, completely different, non-standard agreement that everyone has admitted was kept in the dark for the most part. Because why else would it automatically be reviewed in March 2016, before the primary was over?
The family had to publically beg hannity to leave their dead son and family alone and to stop talking about them.

You think they want to do it all over again?

If they honestly consider Brazile a friend, I'd imagine they could tell Brazile "hey, please don't bring up Seth", and I'd like to think someone they spoke of in that way would be "ok, I won't do that". But I might be giving Brazile too much credit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,078
100%



For the bolded -

1) We know that Clinton's team sent the MoU per the memo itself (From Mook to Dacey). So it's being written from that perspective.

2) Line near the end -"Further we (Clinton) understand you (DNC) may enter into similar agreements (NOT the JFA, which you keep continuously referring to, but a "we straight out pay your bills and you give us control" agreement, which is separate and completely different and something that is not coming through to you) with other candidates (Sanders). So the Clinton team is saying "hey DNC, we understand you might enter similar agreements with other candidates". Which..means that the DNC would have to tell Sanders, since this agreement is not a standard agreement. It is not the agreement Dean is talking about.

Once again, I reiterate - almost no one knew about this agreement. Brazile didn't even know about this agreement. That's stated in the book and disputed by no one. This is not the Joint Fundraising Agreement, which is what Sanders had been led to believe was the agreement. Because if you read the memo carefully, you see the next line. "The attached Joint Fundraising Agreement will be entered into by HFA and the DNC (as well as by State Parties). So when Sanders asks "what agreement does the Clinton camp have with you, DNC?", the DNC's response is "See this attached Joint Fundraising Agreement", which has no indication of the other agreement involved. This idea that Sanders has a magic 8 ball saying "hey, there's this other agreement on top of the normal agreement that Clinton signed that you should ask about" is ludicrous. Or put it this way - neither Clinton nor Obama had a similar agreement in 2008.

Sanders asked the DNC about any agreements that Clinton signed. DNC gave him the boilerplate answer (probably because the person being asked may not have even known about the agreement Clinton and the DNC had done). The Joint Fundraising Agreement is not an agreement to keep the lights on at the DNC. I think you are conflating the two again. They are completely different. Clinton not only agreed to fundraise with the DNC, but was asked to pay their bills at that moment, and that was a second, completely different, non-standard agreement that everyone has admitted was kept in the dark for the most part. Because why else would it automatically be reviewed in March 2016, before the primary was over?

I'm not talking about the JFA. Dean mentioned, just like Mook did in the NPR article you gave, that this other agreement was entirely about the GENERAL ELECTION not the primary.

I am agreeing with you that this other agreement shouldn't have been made when it was made. What I am disagreeing with is your claims as to the motives behind the agreement.

Reread my entire post instead of just the first few sentences and tell me what was wrong with what I said.


As I mentioned last page, Donna doesn't believe in the pro-wikileaks bullshit about Seth Rich. Instead she thinks that the Kremlin had Seth Rich killed. Which is still a little weird, but a lot less wacko in light of all the Trump/Russia news.
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
I'm not talking about the JFA. Dean mentioned, just like Mook did in the NPR article you gave, that this other agreement was entirely about the GENERAL ELECTION not the primary.

I am agreeing with you that this other agreement shouldn't have been made when it was made. What I am disagreeing with is your claims as to the motives behind the agreement.

Reread my entire post instead of just the first few sentences and tell me what was wrong with what I said.



As I mentioned last page, Donna doesn't believe in the pro-wikileaks bullshit about Seth Rich. Instead she thinks that the Kremlin had Seth Rich killed. Which is still a little weird, but a lot less wacko in light of all the Trump/Russia news.

Uhh, I put 100% because I basically agree with your position 100%. :D

Clinton didn't do this out of malice, she did it out of arrogance (at worst).

EDIT: Basically, from what I know about Clinton, I view what she did through these two prisms

A) I am incorruptible, so I don't care about optics
B) I have no real challengers for the primary, and I shouldn't have any actual challengers for the primary. (as previously reported, part of the Obama - Clinton olive branch included that Clinton would get the nomination in 2016 barring anything crazy happening)

These actions make way, way more sense in that context.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,078
Uhh, I put 100% because I basically agree with your position 100%. :D

Clinton didn't do this out of malice, she did it out of arrogance (at worst).

Well it wasn't just Clinton though. It was nearly everyone who had this problem, as I laid out in my post. So much so that you saw this pattern even in the general election and even from Trump himself.

Also whoops I didn't see the "100%" and thought the bottom portion was in response to both posts you were quoting.
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
Well it wasn't just Clinton though. It was nearly everyone who had this problem, as I laid out in my post. So much so that you saw this pattern even in the general election and even from Trump himself.

Absolutely. Even Comey admitted that he sent the letter because he assumed Clinton would win and he didn't want to be seen as hiding something before the election (since Trump was already pounding the "rigged" drum). The DNC didn't think anyone besides Biden would have been a real primary challenge (and the DNC still has a lot of ties to the Clinton political machine anyway), so when Biden didn't immediately jump in, they just started assuming that Clinton would win and operated on that premise. If you wanted to sum up the 2016 election in a word - presumption is that word. Which is why I think populism kind of exploded in reaction - I think a lot of people saw that happening and got mad.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,078
Absolutely. Even Comey admitted that he sent the letter because he assumed Clinton would win and he didn't want to be seen as hiding something before the election (since Trump was already pounding the "rigged" drum). The DNC didn't think anyone besides Biden would have been a real primary challenge (and the DNC still has a lot of ties to the Clinton political machine anyway), so when Biden didn't immediately jump in, they just started assuming that Clinton would win and operated on that premise. If you wanted to sum up the 2016 election in a word - presumption is that word. Which is why I think populism kind of exploded in reaction - I think a lot of people saw that happening and got mad.

Actually Comey's letter oddly enough was what I consider one of the only cases of someone actually making the decision out of caution on the possibility of Trump winning. I explained my reasoning on that in PoliEra about a week ago in the following 2 posts:

https://www.resetera.com/posts/290018/
https://www.resetera.com/posts/294709/

But other than that, I agree that in 2016 you had shitloads of people just assuming that Hillary would win while the actual election ironically became not "The Rejection of Barack Obama" as Ta Nehisi Coates likes to put it, but rather "The Rejection of Hillary Clinton" as one of MANY factors.