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Dragon Ball Super |OT5| A new ERA of Dragon Ball [Tag all DBS Broly spoilers until February 1st]
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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I think the greatest gift of Super is the fandom collectively realizing that the Dragon Ball cast are a bunch of jackasses (despite that being very apparent in the Android/Cell Saga).
I'm surprised that there were genuinely a decent number of people who didn't believe this like lol. A good number of them are assholes. Then again, many grew up with the English Dub which did try to downplay Goku as an asshole lol. No, he's an asshole. Bro tells Kuririn to keep Veggie alive, but not cause he can change, and even admits it's a selfish as fuck request lol.
I was gonna say Videl then remembered she wasn't immune either in her early appearances
Huh
I think asshole is a little strong since the cast overall are good people who try to do the right thing 70% of the time. But, they're also selfish, lazy, jerks, like most people in real life.
I think the TOP showed this best. One minute they're leaving one another to the wolves and the next, they're jumping out of the ring to save their comrade.
DB/Z Rewatch Check-In--
I just watched 17 & 18 kick the shit outta the Z Warriors, Goku's still stick and Maron is still a thing.
I just watched 17 & 18 kick the shit outta the Z Warriors, Goku's still stick and Maron is still a thing.
- The two episodes spent setting up Freeza's return perfectly present the proper amount of anxiety that's necessary for Trunk's introduction to really shock you.
- It's amazing to see all the character's reaction when it sinks in that the evil Ki they're sensing means that Freeza is still alive. I loved the scene where Gohan is trying to make sense of everything as he takes his armor out of storage just so he can give himself every little advantage.
- I've always really liked Mecha Freeza and King Cold's designs. The way they frame King Cold's large size during his voyage to Earth is very effect. He's present as this massive demon-like royal who's severely unimpressed by his son quest for revenge.
- Trunks' introduction is as cool as I remember. The sword is so good. I really wish he would've used it more.
- Again, the episodes to set up for coming threat are among my favorite experiences as a viewer. Trunks' explanation about who he is, what's going to happen and what they'll need to do is engrossing. I love the abstract figures they used to represent the androids.
- The twist that Android 19 & Android 20 aren't the Androids that Trunks warned about is pretty clever. I like those designs but I don't think have the same impact as 17 & 18's.
- I liked how they framed Gero's assault on the heroes like a horror-movie villain. The way he stalked his enemies felt to sap them of their life felt like nothing else in DB history. I feel like Cell was further refinement in many ways.
- Even though I know he makes out alive, theirs still a part of me that think Yamcha's a goner when Gero attacks him. It's just so unsettling.
- As a viewer, I still feel like Vegeta's Super Saiyan origins leave much to be desired. The reasoning behind his transformation just isn't interesting or satisfying. It almost feels like he becomes a Super Saiyan out of obligation.
- Bulma giving no fucks cracks me up. The lady takes her newborn son to the exact location where she was told the apocalypse would begin. LOL
- The driving episode and it's premise are just so ridiculous. Those outfits should be DLC for FighterZ.
- Maron is still around and i'm not sure why.
- omg am I supposed to ship her and the turtle? I don't remember this. I must've blocked it out
- 18 is dope and clearly the superior Android. 17 is cool too but those green socks. There's no way that was ever acceptable.
- Also, Trunks giving his dumbass dad the side eye in the new intro cracks me up every time.
I came in here to post just this clip LOL. I gotta say, I know I watched this movie in English but I don't remember this at all LOL.
The best part is the android developed in a lab trying to claim the mantle of "country" LOL
I think it's also in part due to most people watching here are accustomed to a western culture with roots in judeo Christian mythologies, which often depict righteous noble defenders. Japanese culture has different roots and myths which don't depict heroic characters in the same way. The ethics and moral sensibilities differ between cultures. You can often see in shonen thread how people get indignant about characters not fulfilling a particular hard line stance in relation to breaching certain morals.
That is so true. Like Sun Wukong is practically Asia Superman and he started as a cocky asshole. By the end of Journey of the West, he's still a cocky asshole, but he's overall a better person (something similar to Vegeta). People who considered Goku an insufferable asshole in Super will just 'adore' Sun Wukong, who Goku is a heroic version of. I'm being serious, Goku is like Disney Hercule compared to his original counterpart. Although, this is actually fairly recent that western heroes got pushed to messiah-like levels, like compared 1930s Superman to 1950s Superman and beyond. FYI, 1930s Superman was a dick.
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I see there was a conversation about Minus in here that i missed. Bit of a late reply but i don't think i have ever read anyone online ever claiming that the TV Special was perfect, just that it is way better than minus because it alt east attempt to tell a story and mostly succeeded in doing so. Making Bardock have a ridiculously high power level in the climax was probobaly the worst thing about it. The appeal of Bardock was that he was a nobody and was evil himself despite being the protagonist and the climax kind of shits on that. Still even with all of it's flaws, i still honestly don't see any reason as to why anyone would prefer Minus over it? Other than shallow fan-service or the fact that Toriyama made it himself. Minus bonus chapter or not, is pretty much below any chapter in the original manga, even without comparing it to Bardock TV Special at all. You can still trout out the tired argument if you want that it's just 16 page bonus chapter but that is not an excuse. If Toriyama decides to tell a back story to the entire franchise, then my expectations are going to be a little bit higher than whatever the hell we got with Minus. (Which is literally nothing)
Other than we saw Goku's mom and know what her name is which only satisfies those who want to fill in a data book about DB's lore. Too bad we know nothing about her, she is a one note character through the entire chapter. We know even less about Bardock. Who was somehow the only one that realized that Freeza is planning something, which would lead you to believe that he would not be dumb enough to get killed in the end but too bad we never see anything in Minus that leads to the eventual climax. It just abruptly ends. It just makes the rest of the Saiyans look completely incompetent.
"Oh Freeza is asking about a Super Saiyan and he wants us all to go back to our home planet for no reason at all.This is not suspicions at all"
Bardock seems to even dislike Freeza from the start. Which is the complete opposite of how he was portrayed in the Bardock Special where he and the rest of the Saiyans respected Freeza. Which is why Bardock seemed surprised that Dodoria betrayed him. Now him not trusting Freeza from the outset like he doesn't on Minus this is not necessarily a bad thing buuuuut IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF MINUS WAS LONGER AND FLESHED THE EVENTS OUT A BIT. Instead it's just this quickly cobbled together mess that seems to be dying, begging even just to get injected with more substance but it can't because the origin story of DB has to be crammed into just 16 pages! Talk about exercise in wasted potential.
It even raises some unanswered questions,like why didn't Bardock and Gine warn Raditz about Freeza or tell him the truth as to why they sent off Goku to Earth? Because nothing Raditz eventually reveals to Goku in the manga is true. Vegeta telling Goku about why he was sent off to earth is a complete lie. Which just diminishes that fight and Goku as a character. Yes i know it's technically not a plot hole since Raditz and Vegeta might not know the truth but it just highlights how pointless Minus is, because it literally tells us nothing. Oh and Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God for no reason at all. Despite never doing so in the original manga. It's only there because Minus was released when Battle of Gods was new. So of course it has to haphazardly get tied in with that as well. Not for any story reasons. Because Minus is too preoccupied with getting itself over with as soon as it starts than telling a meaningful story. Is a rushed, poorly constructed chapter (currently) and is far below what Toriyama is capable of. It just serves to overwrite a much better thing that has existed as a standalone story for over 20 years. Minus is such a wasted opportunity in every single way that i have a legitimately hard time considering it canon. Sure it might not technically be the worse than something like Episode of Bardock but Episode of Bardock was never cannon anyway so it's easy to ignore. Minus coming from Toriyama himself and being a cannon backstory to DB and having the potential to be something that could easily far surpass even the Bardock special makes my expectations for it much higher than something like for a side story would be. but sadly it doesn't even come close to being good on it's own merits or how it even ties with the rest of the series, that is just disappointing no matter how you slice it. For that reason alone, i am continually flabbergasted when i read people defending Minus. It's like they just accepted mediocrity. It's like when people defend the Star Wars prequels. It's honestly that bad.
On the plus side. The movie might flesh things out a bit, after all Toie fleshed out the bonus Trunks chapter in the manga so there is still some hope but if it's just going to be Minus in animated form and nothing else that to me is going to be a deal breaker.
Other than we saw Goku's mom and know what her name is which only satisfies those who want to fill in a data book about DB's lore. Too bad we know nothing about her, she is a one note character through the entire chapter. We know even less about Bardock. Who was somehow the only one that realized that Freeza is planning something, which would lead you to believe that he would not be dumb enough to get killed in the end but too bad we never see anything in Minus that leads to the eventual climax. It just abruptly ends. It just makes the rest of the Saiyans look completely incompetent.
"Oh Freeza is asking about a Super Saiyan and he wants us all to go back to our home planet for no reason at all.This is not suspicions at all"
Bardock seems to even dislike Freeza from the start. Which is the complete opposite of how he was portrayed in the Bardock Special where he and the rest of the Saiyans respected Freeza. Which is why Bardock seemed surprised that Dodoria betrayed him. Now him not trusting Freeza from the outset like he doesn't on Minus this is not necessarily a bad thing buuuuut IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF MINUS WAS LONGER AND FLESHED THE EVENTS OUT A BIT. Instead it's just this quickly cobbled together mess that seems to be dying, begging even just to get injected with more substance but it can't because the origin story of DB has to be crammed into just 16 pages! Talk about exercise in wasted potential.
It even raises some unanswered questions,like why didn't Bardock and Gine warn Raditz about Freeza or tell him the truth as to why they sent off Goku to Earth? Because nothing Raditz eventually reveals to Goku in the manga is true. Vegeta telling Goku about why he was sent off to earth is a complete lie. Which just diminishes that fight and Goku as a character. Yes i know it's technically not a plot hole since Raditz and Vegeta might not know the truth but it just highlights how pointless Minus is, because it literally tells us nothing. Oh and Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God for no reason at all. Despite never doing so in the original manga. It's only there because Minus was released when Battle of Gods was new. So of course it has to haphazardly get tied in with that as well. Not for any story reasons. Because Minus is too preoccupied with getting itself over with as soon as it starts than telling a meaningful story. Is a rushed, poorly constructed chapter (currently) and is far below what Toriyama is capable of. It just serves to overwrite a much better thing that has existed as a standalone story for over 20 years. Minus is such a wasted opportunity in every single way that i have a legitimately hard time considering it canon. Sure it might not technically be the worse than something like Episode of Bardock but Episode of Bardock was never cannon anyway so it's easy to ignore. Minus coming from Toriyama himself and being a cannon backstory to DB and having the potential to be something that could easily far surpass even the Bardock special makes my expectations for it much higher than something like for a side story would be. but sadly it doesn't even come close to being good on it's own merits or how it even ties with the rest of the series, that is just disappointing no matter how you slice it. For that reason alone, i am continually flabbergasted when i read people defending Minus. It's like they just accepted mediocrity. It's like when people defend the Star Wars prequels. It's honestly that bad.
On the plus side. The movie might flesh things out a bit, after all Toie fleshed out the bonus Trunks chapter in the manga so there is still some hope but if it's just going to be Minus in animated form and nothing else that to me is going to be a deal breaker.
We're comparing a 45 minute special to 16 pages that was a bonus manga, of course the TV Special told a better story even if the meat of the story makes little sense. Like why did the Saiyans trust Frieza in the special? That's never explained no more than the Saiyans distrust in Minus. In fact, it raise far more questions why anyone would be shocked by someone called the Emperor of Evil decides to kill them.
Also, what would Vegeta know about Goku? He never met him and almost everything that came out of his month was bias based on Goku being a trash planet. So why would Vegeta be considered a reliable narrative on anything about Goku?
And I find this annoying, 'It's like they just accepted mediocrity'. Most of the people like me who like Minus like the ideas in it, plain and simple. It's rushed and needs expanding, but we didn't expect a full story from a chapter tacked on the back of Jaco.
And as. FYI, love the Star Wars prequels so I have accepted I have 'bad' taste.
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Hey i'm not arguing that some of the ideas aren't good but that doesn't mean that the execution of those ideas in Minus is good. You just can't tell the backstory to the franchise in such a rushed way. This being 16 pages is not a good excuse. If Toriyama couldn't tell a good story in 16 pages he shouldn't have done it at all. Who said this even needed to be just 16 pages in the first place? Bonus or not.
Almost no one has every said the execution of Minus was good. It's common knowledge that Minus tried to cram too much in 16 pages. The difference is that people like me want Minus expanded on to flush out these ideas since the bones of the story is good and actually makes more sense that the original TV Special in a lot of ways that told a good story that actually doesn't make much sense in parts when you actually break it down.
Also, don't agree that he shouldn't told a story at all just because he decided to do a bonus chapter. And that bonus chapter was mostly used to explain some of the missing details within Jaco. In other words, the chapter was meant to compliment Jaco, not the original manga, which is far more apperent if you read Jaco and the Minus instead of Minus by itself.
He is this many years old
Give or take a few hundred or thousand years
Previously he seemed to be ancient, but this movie is now making it seem like he was a teenager when he destroyed planet Vegeta rather than an adult.
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Lmao, why do people keep saying stuff like this? Nothing in the trailer implies this.
could be as simple as Cold was the one who got the Saiyans to swear fealty then he handed the reins over to frieza
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This is pretty much all the trailer shows, Cold handing the Saiyans over to Freeza. Nothing in the trailer implies an age for Freeza.
Maybe the Saiyans were a gift, or maybe Cold was retiring or downsizing his empire.
I don't think Frieza was ever meant to be ancient, otherwise he would have destroyed planet Vegeta years earlier than he did
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Why? The Saiyans didn't serve under him until King Vegeta's time, even in the old anime continuity.
If Frieza was ancient the Saiyans would have served him years earlier too
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What? No. The Saiyans were always presented as a recent addition to his empire, even in the Z anime.
I don't think Freeza is ancient anyways, but definitely older than a teen when he got control of the Saiyans.
Yeah that's my thought. The Saiyans were invaded by Frieza's Force recently because Frieza himself hasn't been active until recently.
I have no opinion on whether Frieza is an actual "teen" though. This concept may not even apply to his race at all.
It's mostly due to the redesign of his first form. It could be just a redesign that also happens to make him look younger due to the new art style, but in that case I don't think he'd even need a redesign considering how he didn't have one in Minus.
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Cold's line is different in the subs, with this it could be interpreted that this is simply the first face to face meeting Freeza has with the Saiyans after recently bringing them into his empire.
It's just the artstyle, other characters look younger too, and as for Freeza getting a new design it's probably just because Toriyama wanted to do it, possibly to set his appearance apart from Namek and F.
Space is big my dude, Freeza could have been in the game for a long time before ever coming across the Saiyans.
Frieza looks younger. His design remains me of Chill. Compared to the old Special and filler where Frieza looked exactly the same as he was on Namek.
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Except Frieza is one of those characters who looks largely the same despite art styles like Piccolo. Like everyone in Super looks younger, yet Frieza's first form in Resurrection 'F' didn't change.
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Freeza's first form and Piccolo are very different in Yamamuro's modern style compared to Namek, and Piccolo looks wildly different from modern Yamamuro in Shintani's style.
Different, but certainly not very different otherwise we would have comments about it, like how Future Trunks looked in Z compared to how he looked in Super. Heck, Piccolo looked so similar that people joke about it, so the different can't really be big if the dumb common fan can't even tell the different.
The color plays a part of it, but even then common fans state that Trunks and Frieza looks vastly younger than before.
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Piccolo has changed massively over the years and Freeza's face has a smaller change coming from Yamamuro's designs than Piccolo.
If you can't tell how wildly different modern Yamamuro is from the Namek designs or that Piccolo's face is noe completely different from Yamamuro I don't know what to say.
People joke about Piccolo's overall look not changing, like his outfit, not that he looks exactly the same artistically.
Freeza comparison, I don't feel like doing a Piccolo one.
It's just a rounder artstyle.
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Piccolo's changes have been subtle enough that people don't really noticed. Heck, this holds true if you looked at a spread sheet of Piccolo's designs compared to Goku's. The same with Frieza.
Also, I never I can't tell the different. I said most fans can't unless you put their models side by side.
Overall, Frieza in the second trailer looks so different that even casual know nothing fans took notice and says he looks younger along with the color change. While Frieza before looked like Namek Saga Frieza no matter what era you were looking at. Again, most fans think Frieza looked the same until you showed them a comparison picture.
The best way to describe this is, 'look as you remember', even if it isn't true. Think how people said Twilight Princess HD looks exactly the same as the GameCube version, until people actually played the games side by side and the quality different became apparent.
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We literally had people thinking the movie was a prequel when the first Goku art came out because they thought Goku was younger. Freeza is not the only character people have said looks younger.
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