Dragon Ball Super |OT6| The waiting game

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
4,723
I can see the line of thought behind that. If there's no issue with using Blue, the entire bit with Goku fighting in base in the beginning of the battle (where he directly talks about saving energy by not transforming) just makes no sense and that seems to have come from Toriyama since it was in the anime too - even though the anime took a different route and just ignored that scene afterwards. So, Toyotaro attempted to focus on the whole energy cost issue to go along with that initial set up.

Like I said above, the problem with the battle is actually Toyotaro giving Hit a stamina issue too. That's what makes him underwhelming in the manga during that battle.



Yeah, there's actually a detailed explanation in the Trunks arc about how there's a big energy cost right after the transformation, when they're setting up the improved versions of Blue that attempt to eliminate or reduce that cost.



You're assuming he knew he could regenerate from that though. We're talking about events that are in consecutive chapters, by the same writer, so there's no reason to assume they were forgotten or don't line up. We see him regenerating from the damage, and in the very next chapter it's outright said that it wouldn't have worked. It's not like it was even half a year later or something. Goku also apparently thought it could have killed him, and yet he was wrong.
The anime didn't ignore the stamina drain since Goku's body nearly exploded after he forfeit. However, Blue taking energy was always a line to explain why Goku and Vegeta never just jump into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and end the fight. Toyo took it way too far given Vegeta a 90% energy drain that Vegeta himself didn't seem to know about, otherwise why didn't he just stay Blue after he beat Cabba and the 90% drain is literally never mentioned again after the arc. It seemed just there to explain away Vegeta's lost instead of just having him lose to Hit.

Except Black in the manga went in and out of Rose and didn't lose a massive amount of stamina. Which seems odd when he admitted that he couldn't even go into the form before Vegeta beat him up, so why does he have better stamina than them? Even odder, it's never brought up why Rose seemed more energy efficient.

Toyo does seems to forget his own stuff, however. How else do you explain that odd power scaling of Super Saiyan 1/2 Black being equal to Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, when Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku who was weaker than base Black. Even Black holding back makes little sense since as I pointed out a bunch of times, why even go Super Saiyan if he was going to hold himself back so much when he could have just fought in base form. Worse, the fight would have flowed better if Super Saiyan Vegeta fought Black in base and then Black when Super Saiyan to try to counter Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.


These last two episodes are the only good ones. Hopefully they can keep it up for now, gives us at least SOMETHING while we wait.
I liked the episodes with UI Goku vs Cumber and the Grand Priest Goku episode. I would even say the episode where Vegeta did the Final Flash was good.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,284
The anime didn't ignore the stamina drain since Goku's body nearly exploded after he forfeit.
That's completely different, it's from Kaioken's strain on his body, which isn't the same as just getting tired from transforming. It doesn't really justify fighting in base in the beginning.

However, Blue taking energy was always a line to explain why Goku and Vegeta never just jump into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and end the fight. Toyo took it way too far given Vegeta a 90% energy drain that Vegeta himself didn't seem to know about, otherwise why didn't he just stay Blue after he beat Cabba and the 90% drain is literally never mentioned again after the arc. It seemed just there to explain away Vegeta's lost instead of just having him lose to Hit.
It was mentioned in the Trunks arc though, even if mostly to write it out. And just staying transformed would still result in him wasting the initial boost of the form.

Except Black in the manga went in and out of Rose and didn't lose a massive amount of stamina. Which seems odd when he admitted that he couldn't even go into the form before Vegeta beat him up, so why does he have better stamina than them? Even odder, it's never brought up why Rose seemed more energy efficient.
It didn't really seem more energy efficient though. Goku Black was getting healed by Zamasu all the time, and once Vegeta and Goku used methods to surpass their energy issues they easily became stronger than Black.

Toyo does seems to forget his own stuff, however. How else do you explain that odd power scaling of Super Saiyan 1/2 Black being equal to Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, when Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku who was weaker than base Black. Even Black holding back makes little sense since as I pointed out a bunch of times, why even go Super Saiyan if he was going to hold himself back so much when he could have just fought in base form. Worse, the fight would have flowed better if Super Saiyan Vegeta fought Black in base and then Black when Super Saiyan to try to counter Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
I'm not saying he doesn't forget, but forgetting stuff from the previous month, that's actually getting referenced in the very same chapter, just seems like an extreme stretch.

Regarding Vegeta vs Black though, Vegeta only says that he finally sees how Trunks couldn't beat Black once he creates a barrier that stops Vegeta's attack (while beforehand he was just getting beaten up). So, the script does point to him holding back initially. Black seemingly didn't know about Vegeta's blue transformation and planned to get beaten up to power up according go the next chapter, so him holding back in SSJ makes sense. It was still poor storytelling though to waste an entire chapter on that.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
4,723
That's completely different, it's from Kaioken's strain on his body, which isn't the same as just getting tired from transforming. It doesn't really justify fighting in base in the beginning.



It was mentioned in the Trunks arc though, even if mostly to write it out. And just staying transformed would still result in him wasting the initial boost of the form.



It didn't really seem more energy efficient though. Goku Black was getting healed by Zamasu all the time, and once Vegeta and Goku used methods to surpass their energy issues they easily became stronger than Black.



I'm not saying he doesn't forget, but forgetting stuff from the previous month, that's actually getting referenced in the very same chapter, just seems like an extreme stretch.

Regarding Vegeta vs Black though, Vegeta only says that he finally sees how Trunks couldn't beat Black once he creates a barrier that stops Vegeta's attack (while beforehand he was just getting beaten up). So, the script does point to him holding back initially. Black seemingly didn't know about Vegeta's blue transformation and planned to get beaten up to power up according go the next chapter, so him holding back in SSJ makes sense. It was still poor storytelling though to waste an entire chapter on that.
Not really when it was combine strain of both since Goku was able to used Kaioken x10 in his base form back in the Frieza Saga without hurting himself.

It was only mentioned that Blue was draining, not that it drained 90% of your stamina. So it's basically no different that the anime in that sense that it's just an explanation why Goku and Vegeta just don't jump to Blue and instead fight in their lower forms. That while straying transformed drain stamina, it was never said it was a 90% drain so Vegeta would still come out ahead.

He only got healed by Zamasu once that we've seen. After that, he got no healing from him and seemed to spam Rose without this supposed 90% dropped that Goku and Vegeta suffered from the Champa Saga. This isn't about power, it's about how didn't Black lose 90% of his stamina when he was a newly awakened Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan while Goku and Vegeta had the form for at least three years and still had this stamina issue.

Stretched, but not unlikely since he again dropped the 90% power drain in the very next arc for a vague 'it drains stamina'.

Vegeta can say what he wants, but it doesn't match what we have seen or even told just chapters ago. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black should be far above Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta unless Vegeta is massively stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku as a Super Saiyan 2. And if he planned to just get beat up and healed, which is strange since Zamasu was away at the time and he didn't even know when he came back, he didn't need to go Super Saiyan at all. He could have just stood in his base. That entire section makes no sense no matter how you try to explain it.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,737
Just popping to ask if there was like a staff change with Dragon Ball Heroes or something? Putting aside some weird narrative issues (Villain owns Goku using Gravity powers, decided not to use Gravity powers for most of a fight, gets owned and then remembers they have Gravity powers at the end LOL), the most recent episode was unusually good - lots of interesting cuts and shots. Good music too.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,284
Not really when it was combine strain of both since Goku was able to used Kaioken x10 in his base form back in the Frieza Saga without hurting himself.
In the anime, during the U6 arc, It's specifically said there that Blue had less strain than the previous forms though, which is why he could never combine Kaioken with other forms before in the first place. During the U6 arc, they never mention any kind of drain in spite of Goku crazily facing Hit in base initially (aside from the early line that's also in the manga).

It was only mentioned that Blue was draining, not that it drained 90% of your stamina. So it's basically no different that the anime in that sense that it's just an explanation why Goku and Vegeta just don't jump to Blue and instead fight in their lower forms.
In the Trunks arc, It's specifically mentioned that it has a high initial cost when activating the transformation and using twice would drain more, and we're shown that eliminating that cost effectively gives Goku and Vegeta a huge power up. Vegeta goes from having problems with the powered up Black SSJ to beating him up in Rose once he eliminates the cost of transforming by combining some special training with the SSJ God trick. Just because they don't mention the specific 90% amount doesn't mean it was getting ignored. It was still clearly a huge power up.

That while straying transformed drain stamina, it was never said it was a 90% drain so Vegeta would still come out ahead.
The power up is big enough that Goku goes from around or bellow Goku Black Rose's level (he didn't face him, but the entire context makes it clear he wouldn't be able to win either, and when both Vegeta and Goku were in standard Blue they did just as badly against Fused Zamasu) to matching fused Zamasu once he retains the entire power. So, even without numbers it's clearly a big power up.

He only got healed by Zamasu once that we've seen. After that, he got no healing from him and seemed to spam Rose without this supposed 90% dropped that Goku and Vegeta suffered from the Champa Saga. This isn't about power, it's about how didn't Black lose 90% of his stamina when he was a newly awakened Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan while Goku and Vegeta had the form for at least three years and still had this stamina issue.
This is about power because Goku and Vegeta were losing to Black after he got a few zenkai, even in the same form, and yet easily surpass him once they eliminate the drain, so there's nothing indicating it wasn't affecting him. Also, he never goes in and out of Rose during combat. He turns into it right after getting a Zenkai, and later on only removes the transformation after everyone runs away, turning again in the next day against Trunks and then just remaining transformed once Goku and Vegeta arrive.

Vegeta can say what he wants, but it doesn't match what we have seen or even told just chapters ago. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black should be far above Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta unless Vegeta is massively stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku as a Super Saiyan 2.
Like I said, Vegeta only says that Black is stronger than Trunks once Black power ups and creates a barrier that stops his blasts, so at that point the art is really pointing to him being stronger than Vegeta in SSJ 2.

And if he planned to just get beat up and healed, which is strange since Zamasu was away at the time and he didn't even know when he came back, he didn't need to go Super Saiyan at all. He could have just stood in his base. That entire section makes no sense no matter how you try to explain it.
The situation only became desperate due to Vegeta pulling Blue, which Black didn't expect. Still, in the next chapter, it's outright stated getting hurt was Black's plan all along. He uses SSJ to make Vegeta think that he's fighting seriously, but just didn't expect Vegeta to be that strong, which is why he initially held back too much and then afterwards got crushed by Blue, with Zamasu barely making it in time since they didn't expect the battle to be so one sided.
 
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louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,373
New Jersey
you know what would be good villians for an arc

a religious cult that hates resurrection

they want to kill evreyone that has been ressurected by the dragon balls, life exchanges or angels "and can't sense people that have been ressurected, they are unaware of time reversal resurrection though

they have no intrest in killing people that have never died before and will only fight those in self defense or if they try to protect the ressurected or bring back the dead.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
12,047
How abd why would they even be aqare of such things?

Ahead of Z the amount of people ressurected would account for maybe a few dozen?

And what counts as ressurected? Does Coming back from Zeno's erasure count?
 
OP
OP
ArchedThunder

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,612
Just popping to ask if there was like a staff change with Dragon Ball Heroes or something? Putting aside some weird narrative issues (Villain owns Goku using Gravity powers, decided not to use Gravity powers for most of a fight, gets owned and then remembers they have Gravity powers at the end LOL), the most recent episode was unusually good - lots of interesting cuts and shots. Good music too.
Not really, though this is only the second episode Shida has done anything on and the first time he did anything big.
 
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Nayeon

Member
Oct 29, 2017
67
I really dig the Grand Priest Goku style. Here's wishing the anime will someday go a similar route. it'd be badass. Also: Ep 13 was superb. Hope they keep the awesome quality throughout the next episodes.