-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| The waiting game
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
- Start date
In this case, it's more that Merus seems to have all the answers no matter what.
Yeah I was just poking fun at that line of thought coz unlike Merus I never got that impression from 17 at all lol
OP
OP
Him being fast and hiding his true power doesn't make him "this coolest guy in the room". You are making an issue where there isn't one. What he is and why he's hiding his power will literally define whether it makes sense in the grand scheme of things. He's not had tons of amazing feats, literally all he's done so far is be fast. He's not been shown to be able to do everything.
He doesn't undermine the characters any more than Future Trunks showing up, being a Super Saiyan and killing Freeza effortlessly, or Beerus showing up and being stronger than everyone, or the out of nowhere reveal that Whis is even stronger than him.
"All the answers no matter what", yeah how'd that go when he fought Moro?
You're not getting what it means to be the coolest guy in the room. There are particular characters who are designed to be cooler than everyone else first and foremost and that's Merus. If you've read fics or seen many other forms of fiction you know these characters. This man's literally going down the list with this.
Instantly shows up and knocks out the 2 main characters easily in his debut which never happens in this entire series? Check.
Out shows the main characters multiple times to the point where we get pages of them always surprised at what he can do? Check.
Surprising the lead bad guy multiple times even in situations where the heroes have said that they can't beat the opponent? Check.
Going to teach the main character to learn his greatest form because he knows all about it and he can do it? Check.
Has his own unique things that's cool like his own training room, own staff looking weapon, he's got personalized everything? Check. I mean that whole "nah that spacesuit is custom made for Merus" thing only exists for this reason.
Is the pride and elite in whatever organization he's in like say the space police? Check.
Smarter than everyone else? Check.
Heroes lose to the bad guy 4 times and in 3 of those times he saves them and always ends up doing damage or surprising the bad guy? Check.
Is so fast he can make everyone including the main bad guy, the main characters and their super forms look silly at times? Check.
Has been holding back the entire time? Check.
Potentially might be a member of a race that's stronger than the main character's special unqiue strongest race? Check.
That's the "coolest guy in the room." He's that cliche you see in fics when people create their OCs. In no way is that good writing for a character. The only way he can be more OC is if characters become infatuated with his looks which wouldn't be surprising because in a few panels he looks like Trunks did.
In comparison with Trunks, he's a Saiyan who could go SSj and destroyed Frieza quickly. Instantly after that we saw him contend with Goku (where Goku easily was deflecting his attacks and gave us the image that he was at least on Trunks level if not stronger). Trunks then told his backstory where he was frustrated and almost begging for help since he wasn't strong enough and then at the end of it when he left he showed that he cared about his father showing more of his emotions. During those few chapters Trunks established his power, who he was as a character and then showed his own faults so by the time he left we had no issues. It wasn't even about his feats anymore, it was about him.
You brought up Whis but it's already been explained in this thread that it took Whis far longer time to show everything he could do rather than all at once like Merus. Whis also has a personality that's been established before we realized all he could do. Little by little he showed us more and more and that remains to this day. Beerus, when he was introduced we knew who he was so when he did his feats, it made sense.
Merus on the other hand started off with a ridiculously amount of feats to the point where it's like "ok, you're stronger, smarter, faster, cooler and have it all compared to everyone else just get to the point why are you here." It's not even comparable to Trunks, Whis or Beerus because with them they didn't have feat upon feat upon feat undermining the rest. Even when Trunks showed up and beat Frieza the moment Goku went SSj he made Trunks look like a kid. Beerus acknowledged Goku and Whis, he's still being developed.
Merus having a reason why he's doing this has zero explanation as to why he's badly written.
At the end of the day, this dude Merus exists as a plot point rather than a character. Need someone to connect plot points? Merus is here. Need someone trained? Merus is here. Need someone to give the heroes time to escape? Merus is here. Need someone to save the heroes after the villain beats their ass again? Merus is here. He's that.
He's trash.
Not really since Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks lost twice to Black and were saved by different people both times. If you count Trunks by himself, he saved himself when the lost to Black several times.
He fought Moro twice and did his job both times. What screwed him over was his backup (Grand Supreme Kai/Buu and Goku and Vegeta) not doing their part. It's like saying the best player in the losing team in Splatoon wasn't the best player in that game because their teammates kept messing up and they couldn't carry.
Also, the examples of Trunks and Beerus don't work for several reasons. For Beerus specifically, he was the villain of the movie/saga, even if it was the friendly kind. Trunks may have turned Frieza and his father into cold cuts, but then Goku shows up and shows him up with a single finger. Then we find out that Trunks gets his ass kicked daily by androids. So far, there is nothing like that for Meerus. He's neither a villain nor acts as a benchmark for how bad the coming threat is like Trunks.
Last edited:
tbh at this moment the thing I'm most concerned about is that this Toyo original arc might be the arc where Goku masters UI.
Enjoying Toyo's fanfic as a side inconsequential story is one thing, but if it's having permanent consequences and developments on the main story, it just makes me anxious about the future of Dragon Ball.
Enjoying Toyo's fanfic as a side inconsequential story is one thing, but if it's having permanent consequences and developments on the main story, it just makes me anxious about the future of Dragon Ball.
It's canon though
Toriyama has said as much, hasn't he?
I don't really mind though, esp since I feel like the anime is going to cover this arc whenever it comes back. They might make changes or they might not.
e: and tbh it's not like toei is doing any amazing writing with the story either. They've had their share of bad writing as well.
Toriyama has literally never commented on the current manga arc. The last time Toriyama talked about Dragon Ball, it was congratulating the staff on the Broly movie and talking about his 'next project'.
As for the "toei is doing any amazing writing with the story either. They've had their share of bad writing as well", this is a really annoying whataboutthem. On average, the writer in the Super anime is much more put together than the manga, especially in the Universal Survival Saga.
They lost twice to Black. I'm not sure why people keep exaggerating how many times Black beat them and they retreated.
I've also seen a lot of blind praise for it though. "Best arc in Super" etc.
It's already been officially stated that this current manga arc is the current saga of Super. This isnt a side story this is a main story thats important to the plot. What Toriyama says or not is irrelevant atm hes pretty much ghosting the series until further notice.
Toriyama has stated that Toyotaro is his successor, however.
This arc is weird in that Kanzenshuu, who blindly defended the manga through everything, including its version of the TOP, doesn't like this arc. I guess because now they can't thrown the anime under the bus to defend it, although some try.
At the same time, people on Reddit has praised this arc as the best in Super and will downvoted you into the ground if you say you don't like it. Or raised valid questions.
Overall, I think this is the second best arc in the Super manga with the Future Trunks being the best and I doubt this arc can recover enough to surpassed it. For all the flaws the manga version of the Future Trunks Saga had, it wasn't bogged down by a fanfic OC like Meerus. Granted, Moro is a little better than Manga Black, but they're both equally lame. Well, maybe third best depending if it's better than the U6 tournament.
At the same time, people on Reddit has praised this arc as the best in Super and will downvoted you into the ground if you say you don't like it. Or raised valid questions.
Overall, I think this is the second best arc in the Super manga with the Future Trunks being the best and I doubt this arc can recover enough to surpassed it. For all the flaws the manga version of the Future Trunks Saga had, it wasn't bogged down by a fanfic OC like Meerus. Granted, Moro is a little better than Manga Black, but they're both equally lame. Well, maybe third best depending if it's better than the U6 tournament.
I can see "best manga arc", if only because we don't have it in our minds that the anime did all of those arcs better lol
It will be interesting if the show also does the Moro arc and opinion of the manga version suddenly drops for some reason.
Someone brought up Trunks in comparison to Merus and now I'm really thinking how Toriyama just instantly subverted the trope of would could have easily been a mary sueish character. Trunks damn near had all the traits in his intro but then immediately Goku puts him in his place, Vegeta literally sons him, and he goobers around for the rest of the arc. Toyo making me appreciate Toriyama more.
If they're actually going somewhere with Merus then that'll be good. It just depends on how good a reason he has to hide his power. Then again Moro's wish was pretty anticlimactic for how long they kept that thread going so who knows. I don't think Merus as a character is offensive on his face, though. (But his haircut sure sucks lol)
It's been terrible escalation since Z began been along for the ride since . He don't seem much different from what we use to
Un, no. There is more to being a Sue then being powerful or 'cool'. That and you can filled most of the qualities of being a Sue and not be one by being a great written character, which Meerus doesn't fulfill.
And honestly, it's never a good defense to used whataboutthem when talking about why this character doesn't work since I can write an entire essay about it. But the core of most of it is that almost all the characters in Dragon Ball, like Whis, had their power revealed or learned slowly over time. Like Goku didn't start as strong as he was and others were originally villains who tend to be given leeway about being laughably overpowered.
Namek really kickstarted things, with the drastic change in power levels, and the sudden ease at getting power boosts (Saiyan gets stronger after being beat).
Dragon Ball was always crazy before Namek. In the second story arc, Roshi blew up the moon. Before then, the best feat was him nuking a mountain.
I imagine if the anime was running, and doing something with actual substance...
They would have to practically rewrite Meerus' character, which is a bandaid since Meerus on what he is has several dozen issues.
I meant more like... do a story completely unrelated to this one :)
I am not as hopeful on that anymore if Goku actually learns to control UI in this arc.
Which is a little odd since he seemed to 'get it' in the manga TOP to the point of not being concern about 17 blowing himself up, but suddenly can't control his emotions anymore when he fights. Which is also a little odd given how in Z, a point is always made about how Goku seemed calm in battle no matter what's happening around him.
This is horseshit and you know it. Goku has literally been a prodigy since chapter 1 as soon as Bulma shot him in the head and the bullet didnt do anything to him. He learned the Kamehameha wave in seconds, and was able to beat essentially the world's strongest man in the first arc in the series. Goku was a Mary Sue from day 1. Dragon Ball isnt a very well written series in the first place and even Toriyama understands this hence why the manga is so action focused.
Doesnt mean there cant be great Dragon Ball stories there has been and continues to be, with Super arguably being the first time Toriyama isnt making stuff up week-by-week like he used to.
Nah, Goku wasn't and isn't a Mary Sue at all. He's a fighting prodigy but he's got flaws. He's innocent, a bit of a hillbilly, down to Earth enough to where that can be a hinderance at times, doesn't understand certain things, isn't all focused on technology and whatnot, he hasn't been "cool" at times, other characters get onto him for certain things. He's just great in what makes a Shonen manga.
Merus is different as Merus seems to know a great amount, he's cool so he had his own personalized things such as his own spacesuit and ROSAT, he understands plans even creates plans himself, he's got that in the bag along with all of Goku's positives.
Merus hasn't shown us 1 flaw of his this entire arc and the sole reason Moro isn't beaten is probably because he's deciding to hold his true power back. Goku on the other hand showed flaws in the first chapter of Dragonball.
Merus is different as Merus seems to know a great amount, he's cool so he had his own personalized things such as his own spacesuit and ROSAT, he understands plans even creates plans himself, he's got that in the bag along with all of Goku's positives.
Merus hasn't shown us 1 flaw of his this entire arc and the sole reason Moro isn't beaten is probably because he's deciding to hold his true power back. Goku on the other hand showed flaws in the first chapter of Dragonball.
Last edited:
I don't get your summary of Goku. I mean "cool" is in the eye of the beholder so I'm not going to argue that but the other stuff..
What is a Mary Sue in your opinion? Well, you and everyone else in the thread. Sometimes I feel that people argue at cross purposes because they both define a word or phrase in different ways. So to one person Goku might be a Mary Sue and to another Goku isn't and they'd both be right based on how they conceive the term.
If a Mary Sue is a character who started off as a prodigy then everyone in Dragon Ball outside of Krillin, Raditz, Nappa, Yamcha and Chiatzou are Mary Sues. If a Mary Sue is supposed to be a "perfect" character with no flaws, then almost no character in fiction is a Mary Sue.
Most of your Merus criticisms can apply to Goku as well. Goku was the only character who knew about the ROSAT out of the main cast. He also brought up the idea of the fusion dance. He's had his own personalized techniques for years that no one else has access to, Kaioken, IT, Spirit Bomb and SS3. Goku himself held his true power back against Majin Buu instead of beating him.
Cool's dependent upon the manga used and that's not entirely based on the beholder, that's based on the characters in the series a lot of the time, in this case that's an example of it. In DB people consider Great Saiyaman to be "uncool" while characters like Trunks are "cool." There's a reason that Great Saiyaman is considered lame to the Z Senshi. Just look at his appearance and how he acts. That in itself just gives you an idea of who a cool character would be. Merus is identified as being the "cool" one of the space patrol given how he's being presented. For example, the entire line about Merus being the only one to have a custom spacesuit was entirely there to show how Merus was a "cool" character with personalized stuff. Otherwise why put it in there? It didn't serve any purpose besides saying he has personalized things others can't get. You then get the multiple panels dedicated to having Goku and Vegeta surprised and amazed he can do these things while they couldn't, not once or twice but every single time.
It's the whole "one of one" thing. He's always doing/has/appearing to be better and exclusive compared to others.
A Mary Sue is not a character who started off as a prodigy, at all. A Mary Sue is a character without any flaws, a seemingly "perfect character" to a degree. For example, in the Naruto databooks everyone had stats.
Naruto, these were his stats (out of 5) in the first 2 databooks.
If Naruto was a Mary Sue he'd excel in all areas and have 0 flaws. That's not counting how brash he is, the fact he think he can do everything and so on and so forth. From a character standpoint, he's incredibly flawed which has been one of people's biggest knocks on him. Sasuke isn't even a Mary Sue because while he can fight, from a character perspective the guy's got numerous flaws. Kakashi even with all of his greatness had a chakra problem for most of the series.
In DB's case, Goku's still a different story compared to Merus because even though he has exclusive techniques that you've named, Goku's always perceived as being the innocent, naive, non-intellectual genius, type of character. If he had stats then he'd do amazing in all of the fighting stats but when it comes to stuff like base intelligence, he wouldn't be up to a Piccolo-like level. In Super the parts with him having a problem having a regular job, Chichi yelling at him over stuff, the parts with him shopping and not knowing what food is best, those are what makes him not a Mary Sue because that shows that yeah, he can fight but he's a flaw character in that most things not related to fighting and being friends, he doesn't know. This applies to Goku throughout each series because that's not his forte.
You mentioning his positives doesn't take away from his negatives. In the Buu Saga for instance, the fact he held back was there because while he wanted the heroes of Earth to do it, the guy's life was on a leash at that point so anything he did could have strained his time even further. He just excels so well in other areas that it makes some people not notice his flaws even though his flaws are highlighted a lot in the series. Goku knowing the ROSAT, the fusion dance and whatnot doesn't take away from the fact that he's not an intellectual genius who has a plan for everything, can get himself out of every situation and the fact that he doesn't know basic stuff. Vegeta for example, he's the one who came up with the plan to end Buu with the reviving of the dead characters and the Spirit Bomb. Had Goku been a Mary Sue he would have been the one to create that plan and hell, had Goku been a Mary Sue it might not have gotten to that point.
Basically, Goku's a flawed character. When it comes to fighting? He's got it but when it comes to everything else? Nah, he's not a Mary Sue.
Merus on the other hand, what flaws does this guy have? Since the latest chapter came out not 1 person has identified a flaw of his. He's super fast, super strong apparently, he's got plans on plans on plans so he's really smart, he's done so many feats, he's got personalized things others don't have, what's his character flaw?