Dragon Ball Super |OT6| The waiting game

RochHoch

Member
May 22, 2018
6,436
Piccolo and Gohan should have beaten Saganbo on their own, and then Goku could have intervened when Moro started juicing him again and again.

The Goku Does Everything Show is so incredibly tired at this point. Hopefully Vegeta gets the W this arc.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
That's more of a Toyo problem tbh. The US arc treated most everyone well in the anime. Toyo's problem is he says he buffed characters like Gohan and Piccolo yet still needed Goku to fight Moro's men. If you're gonna make characters stronger, at least show it off properly and not leave it to a line of dialogue. Piccolo's moping around doesn't help either. He's been poorly written for a while now.
Gotta love that Toyo couldn’t let the B Team defeat all the fodder. Even had the characters acknowledge how pointless the last chapters have been by saying Moro’s men were mostly trash.

And all of Toyo’s fights look the same. He hasnt had an interesting fight scene since Goku vs Merged Zamasu. He even made Omen boring by not even drawing it.
 

Kagari

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Oct 24, 2017
3,407
Gotta love that Toyo couldn’t let the B Team defeat all the fodder. Even had the characters acknowledge how pointless the last chapters have been by saying Moro’s men were mostly trash.

And all of Toyo’s fights look the same. He hasnt had an interesting fight scene since Goku vs Merged Zamasu. He even made Omen boring by not even drawing it.
This whole thing continues to be poorly written. Most of the fights are just taking from things we've seen before and it happens in every single chapter.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
This whole thing continues to be poorly written. Most of the fights are just taking from things we've seen before and it happens in every single chapter.
I think the biggest issues with this arc is pacing that is bogged down with needless padding along with boring characters and reused character interaction with no sense of irony. And this chapter in particular have all the issues to the point that the entire chapter is pointless outside of the last two pages.

But I was wrong about one thing. Buu vs Moro was actually pretty good. The biggest issue with it is that Moro is an one-trick pony, which made Buu vs Basil in the anime more interesting. Speaking of which, are we going to see the Grand Supreme Kai again?
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,060
Damn he couldn't even let Gohan and the others beat the minions, ya hate to see it. Even had them point out that they suck compared to Goku and couldn't protect the earth.

Toyo clearly can't replicate the intense atmosphere and great fight scense of the Nappa/Ginyu Force situations so don't do it, that well has dried out.

And it looks they're setting up Vegeta to save the day but lord knows I'll never trust DB to actually follow through on that. After RoF? Buu saga Gohan? No way.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,620
Toyo clearly can't replicate the intense atmosphere and great fight scense of the Nappa/Ginyu Force situations so don't do it, that well has dried out.
The issue here is that none of the situations were that dramatic. They were overpowered, but no one was out yet. Compare with the Recoome battle where by the time Goku arrived they couldn't even stand.

Still, the passiveness of the secondary cast is annoying, but it's not like that started here. It has been going on ever since Dragonball returned. The only characters that strive for new things are Goku and Vegeta. Even Gohan's "growth" was just to go back to training rather than something actually new. I guess there's 17 but that was all off-screen and rather generic (no plot points tied to it, aside from him suddenly being strong enough again to matter in the ToP).
 
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Daytak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,576
Detroit, MI
If you aren't Goku or Vegeta Toyo doesn't care about you.

Evidence: Trunks getting sidelined in his own arc even worse than the anime did.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,620
If you aren't Goku or Vegeta Toyo doesn't care about you.

Evidence: Trunks getting sidelined in his own arc even worse than the anime did.
Everything starts from Toriyama though. Based on the interview about the Trunks arc, it was the Toriyama outline itself that didn't have much of a role for Trunks. Of course, Toyo's idea of giving more presence for him was the healing powers, which should have been immediately shot down as a bad idea, but it's clear Toriyama didn't care much about him in the first place (compare with several storyboards immediately thrown away because Toriyama didn't want a GoD and an Angel flirting).

The anime tried to do various emotional moments to secondary characters in the ToP, but even then they were held back by the fact they had no actual plot points tied to them. That resulted in oddities like Kuririn's training that supposedly made him stronger than ever before being just standard gym equipment and then he got unceremoniously knocked out in the tournament itself in spite of the great build up to it.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
Everything starts from Toriyama though. Based on the interview about the Trunks arc, it was the Toriyama outline itself that didn't have much of a role for Trunks. Of course, Toyo's idea of giving more presence for him was the healing powers, which should have been immediately shot down as a bad idea, but it's clear Toriyama didn't care much about him in the first place (compare with several storyboards immediately thrown away because Toriyama didn't want a GoD and an Angel flirting).

The anime tried to do various emotional moments to secondary characters in the ToP, but even then they were held back by the fact they had no actual plot points tied to them. That resulted in oddities like Kuririn's training that supposedly made him stronger than ever before being just standard gym equipment and then he got unceremoniously knocked out in the tournament itself in spite of the great build up to it.
Healing Trunks was a fine idea. The problem was execution and how it felt like something Toyo made up half-way through the story since there’s literally no reason why Shin and Kibito didn’t tell him about them. Which goes straight into Toyo’s lack of imagination.

As for Krillin’s faux build-up, that’s the joke so much so that everyone lampshade what a failure Krillin was for going out so soon. Even Shin visibly gave him shade.

And it wasn’t just stranded gym equipment since it was said Krillin kept training with Goku to the point that Goku has his phone numbers and calls him ahead of time to request a spar match. Krillin also outsmarted Gohan, whose main weakness is him over relying on his power and not thinking things through.


If you aren't Goku or Vegeta Toyo doesn't care about you.

Evidence: Trunks getting sidelined in his own arc even worse than the anime did.
I can’t really agree since Goku has been terribly written in the manga after the Future Trunks Saga. This chapter is the first one since Merged Zamasu that Goku comes off as cool and even that’s undermined by he just beat up pointless fodder that someone else should have handled.

That said, I honestly think Toyo hates Piccolo.
 
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Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
1,864
I was enjoying the previous bits with the side characters defending Earth, but this chapter solidified the issues I have with Toyo:

- His Goku sucks. Goku was never the most dynamic character, but he still showed very obvious growth from the start of Dragon Ball up until the end of the Cell saga. Even Buu saga Goku initially showed a slightly less naive side and an interest in being a mentor figure to the future generation. But Toyo's Goku is just an early DBZ abridged parody boiled down to his base traits of "dumb, bad father and likes to fight." It's boring and uninteresting.

- He's obsessed with recreating famous moments from the manga/movies/games. Look, homages/nods are fine if sparsely used, but he lifts entire moments/scenes without any self-awarness of what made those moments actually work in the first place. Who the hell wants to see the "side characters are getting creamed until Goku shows up" plot point, only with none of the drama or catharsis of the Nappa/Ginyu Force fights, for the 100th time?

- in the same vein, we all know how this fight is going to pan out: Goku overwhelms Moro, but Moro is going to power up and defeat him, Vegeta will make the save, and then in turn get beaten up before making some "you can do it, Kakarot!" speech that leads to Goku unleashing Mastered Ultra Instinct and saving the day.

- The only plot twist I can see coming is Goku failing to master Ultra Instinct and Vegeta winning instead, which would do nothing for me. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but post-Buu saga, static Vegeta is one of the most boring characters in the series. And that goes double for Toyo's pet favourite character version of Vegeta.

Seriously, can someone just give a better writer a Z-Warriors spin-off starring Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids, Krillian, Tien and Yamcha? Or a Universe 6 spin-off with Hit, Kale and Caulifla? I'll even take a post Tournament of Power good guy Jiren being bros with Toppo spin-off.
 

Kagari

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Oct 24, 2017
3,407
I was enjoying the previous bits with the side characters defending Earth, but this chapter solidified the issues I have with Toyo:

- His Goku sucks. Goku was never the most dynamic character, but he still showed very obvious growth from the start of Dragon Ball up until the end of the Cell saga. Even Buu saga Goku initially showed a slightly less naive side and an interest in being a mentor figure to the future generation. But Toyo's Goku is just an early DBZ abridged parody boiled down to his base traits of "dumb, bad father and likes to fight." It's boring and uninteresting.

- He's obsessed with recreating famous moments from the manga/movies/games. Look, homages/nods are fine if sparsely used, but he lifts entire moments/scenes without any self-awarness of what made those moments actually work in the first place. Who the hell wants to see the "side characters are getting creamed until Goku shows up" plot point, only with none of the drama or catharsis of the Nappa/Ginyu Force fights, for the 100th time?

- in the same vein, we all know how this fight is going to pan out: Goku overwhelms Moro, but Moro is going to power up and defeat him, Vegeta will make the save, and then in turn get beaten up before making some "you can do it, Kakarot!" speech that leads to Goku unleashing Mastered Ultra Instinct and saving the day.

- The only plot twist I can see coming is Goku failing to master Ultra Instinct and Vegeta winning instead, which would do nothing for me. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but post-Buu saga, static Vegeta is one of the most boring characters in the series. And that goes double for Toyo's pet favourite character version of Vegeta.

Seriously, can someone just give a better writer a Z-Warriors spin-off starring Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids, Krillian, Tien and Yamcha? Or a Universe 6 spin-off with Hit, Kale and Caulifla? I'll even take a post Tournament of Power good guy Jiren being bros with Toppo spin-off.
This sums up my feelings exactly, and honestly I could forgive the issues with the art/reuse if the writing was actually competent. But it's not. Toyotaro has struggled to write every single character for five years now, to varying degrees. His Goku is constantly a parody, Vegeta is often written in place of other characters, Piccolo is always moping around or acting like an idiot, etc. It just doesn't gel with how these characters were written in the original series.

FWIW I don't think Vegeta will win either. As much as Toyo rides his dick, I think it'll be his OC that steps in at the last minute or something.
 

Lotus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
53,059
Oh joy, more of Goku coming in with Instant Transmission to do the fighting for everyone
 

Kagari

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Oct 24, 2017
3,407
The issue here is that none of the situations were that dramatic. They were overpowered, but no one was out yet. Compare with the Recoome battle where by the time Goku arrived they couldn't even stand.

Still, the passiveness of the secondary cast is annoying, but it's not like that started here. It has been going on ever since Dragonball returned. The only characters that strive for new things are Goku and Vegeta. Even Gohan's "growth" was just to go back to training rather than something actually new. I guess there's 17 but that was all off-screen and rather generic (no plot points tied to it, aside from him suddenly being strong enough again to matter in the ToP).
Eh, even their stuff has just been: here's the next form/more training. I appreciate Gohan's version just being his existing form being improved upon rather than the endless form cycling Goku now finds himself using.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
This sums up my feelings exactly, and honestly I could forgive the issues with the art/reuse if the writing was actually competent. But it's not. Toyotaro has struggled to write every single character for five years now, to varying degrees. His Goku is constantly a parody, Vegeta is often written in place of other characters, Piccolo is always moping around or acting like an idiot, etc. It just doesn't gel with how these characters were written in the original series.

FWIW I don't think Vegeta will win either. As much as Toyo rides his dick, I think it'll be his OC that steps in at the last minute or something.
I personally thought his Goku was fine until the Universal Survival Saga outside of calling a Gohan ‘little shit’ in the fan translation. After the Future Trunks Saga, Goku implicated became a meat head.

Toyo’s Vegeta always seemed to be trapped in his Pre-Buu Saga self until certain moments like Namek. And Piccolo is just a moron.

I also hate how he indirectly made Whis a horrible teacher.
 

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,357
New Jersey
there are 5 things that come into play to make this arc satisfying to what it's introduces
buu/supreme kia. merus. goku ultra instict training. vegeta training and moro himself

balancing those 5 elements should be simple

not like toyo is writing a dream if spring and trying to satisfy 1000s of story elements

it will end up being bad
 

Skeeter49

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,195
If we're getting a movie before a potential series, is it too late for it to be this year/ early next year? Or would we have heard about it by now if it was a possibility?
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,815
I'm starting to think Goku will save the day in the end


just a guess

If we're getting a movie before a potential series, is it too late for it to be this year/ early next year? Or would we have heard about it by now if it was a possibility?
Probably too late for this year. The turnaround from announcement to release for DBS Broly was one year exactly. I was optimistically hoping for a March 2020 announcement and March 2021 movie, but it looks like that ship has sailed :(

Also who knows what impact corona may have on everything behind the scenes...
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,157
Oh wow they're actually adding Unmei no Hi to DBZ Kakarot. Wasn't expecting that song to be used.
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
Looking at the reaction to the manga chapter in other places and I'm annoyed that the main thing people are complaining about is Goku using UI Omen willingly. Like, did people forget that Goku trained for months under Meerus explicitly to master UI? For god sakes, this is one of the few things Toyo wrote decently well despite my many issues with Meerus.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
1,864
Looking at the reaction to the manga chapter in other places and I'm annoyed that the main thing people are complaining about is Goku using UI Omen willingly. Like, did people forget that Goku trained for months under Meerus explicitly to master UI? For god sakes, this is one of the few things Toyo wrote decently well despite my many issues with Meerus.
The only issue I can see having with it is that it's UI Omen he's using. If he can actively turn it on and off, it should be the fully mastered UI.

Granted, it's a small nitpick, and Omen is the better form both visually and conceptually either way, but it does reek of Toyo's obsession with overly categorizing forms and not wanting to "waste them" like he did when he brought back SSJ God for no narrative reason.
 

HeroR

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Dec 10, 2017
6,329
The only issue I can see having with it is that it's UI Omen he's using. If he can actively turn it on and off, it should be the fully mastered UI.

Granted, it's a small nitpick, and Omen is the better form both visually and conceptually either way, but it does reek of Toyo's obsession with overly categorizing forms and not wanting to "waste them" like he did when he brought back SSJ God for no narrative reason.
Not sure how Omen is better conceptually when it’s literally incomplete, but that’s just my opinion. And I do agree that Omen isn’t needed since, again, it’s incomplete form while the manga calls it the ‘first step’. It isn’t the first step, Omen is just Goku thinking when attacking. Then again, the manga never explained what Omen was, so all information is from the anime.

Which is another oddity since Omen was created by the anime to build up Goku completing UI. So it’s odd seeing Toyo using it on his original story.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,032
Not sure how Omen is better conceptually when it’s literally incomplete, but that’s just my opinion. And I do agree that Omen isn’t needed since, again, it’s incomplete form while the manga calls it the ‘first step’. It isn’t the first step, Omen is just Goku thinking when attacking. Then again, the manga never explained what Omen was, so all information is from the anime.

Which is another oddity since Omen was created by the anime to build up Goku completing UI. So it’s odd seeing Toyo using it on his original story.
We don't actually know if Goku only reaches this far, right? Moro asked to see what form he used to move so fast, which is this. Goku acknowledges this is the first step (meaning he has understanding of the various steps) and it's Dragon Ball style to go through each fase subsequentally. It makes for some kickass comeback after all.

Basically, it's extremely DB like to have usable steps within UI, as it allows more visual differences and power differences within that form. Whether that's a good thing is taste, I guess.
 

HeroR

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Dec 10, 2017
6,329
We don't actually know if Goku only reaches this far, right? Moro asked to see what form he used to move so fast, which is this. Goku acknowledges this is the first step (meaning he has understanding of the various steps) and it's Dragon Ball style to go through each fase subsequentally. It makes for some kickass comeback after all.

Basically, it's extremely DB like to have usable steps within UI, as it allows more visual differences and power differences within that form. Whether that's a good thing is taste, I guess.
But Omen has lousy attack and Goku only got the incomplete form because he hasn’t learned to attack without thinking. So him using Omen doesn’t make much sense. But again, that was the anime. Toyo seems to treat Omen like Super Saiyan Grade 2 or something.
 

Listai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,256
I'm really hoping if the show does come back ... they take some serious liberties with this arc because hoo boy is it a mess.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,620
I just realized that 73 likely was kept around in order to have two opponents when Vegeta returns.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,815
I think the only reason they're letting Goku master the Omen form in this maybe canon/maybe non-canon manga storyline is because they can easily ignore the form going forward if they so choose.

I expect we'll see Ultra Instinct makes its grand return, in animated form, with the silver hair. Omen form forgotten.
 

Kagari

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Oct 24, 2017
3,407
I think the only reason they're letting Goku master the Omen form in this maybe canon/maybe non-canon manga storyline is because they can easily ignore the form going forward if they so choose.

I expect we'll see Ultra Instinct makes its grand return, in animated form, with the silver hair. Omen form forgotten.
It's filler in the same sense of Movie 4 using false Super Saiyan. :)
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,620
I think the only reason they're letting Goku master the Omen form in this maybe canon/maybe non-canon manga storyline is because they can easily ignore the form going forward if they so choose.

I expect we'll see Ultra Instinct makes its grand return, in animated form, with the silver hair. Omen form forgotten.
Are you talking about a Toriyama movie project? i guess it's possible considering how well received the form was, so editorial might push it, but I kind of get the impression Toriyama himself didn't care much for the form - his image for it was traced over his old SSJ God art and then there's how the Broly movie basically ignored it.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,815
Are you talking about a Toriyama movie project? i guess it's possible considering how well received the form was, so editorial might push it, but I kind of get the impression Toriyama himself didn't care much for the form - his image for it was traced over his old SSJ God art and then there's how the Broly movie basically ignored it.
It's waaaaaaaaaaaaay too popular to just ignore going forward.

The almighty Dragon Ball Room convinced Toriyama to write a Broly story. They'll make him use Mastered Ultra Instinct.

It's all about the $$$
 

HeroR

Member
Dec 10, 2017
6,329
Are you talking about a Toriyama movie project? i guess it's possible considering how well received the form was, so editorial might push it, but I kind of get the impression Toriyama himself didn't care much for the form - his image for it was traced over his old SSJ God art and then there's how the Broly movie basically ignored it.
I think that is more timing since UI came to be during the writing of the TOP, and the movie came along not too long afterwards in production (one of the directors had to leave the anime halfway through the production of the Universal Survival Saga to do the Broly movie). That and I wouldn't say Toriyama doesn't care given how he purposely made it different than any Super Saiyan form. I just like keeping things simple since people claimed that Super Saiyan God was half done since it was just Goku in his base form with red hair and a skinner body and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is literally just Super Saiyan with blue hair.