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Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Jiren is stronger than his universe's GoD, such feats are not the least bit surprising.

Roshi is... Roshi, a human who's long since been surpassed in strength and speed, yet he can just dodge Jiren's attacks because why not, Goku has this lesson to learn.

Either way, one actually looks badass, whereas the other just makes you want to scratch your head.

manga Roshi already explained. Its more than pulling off the hardest punch. Roshi compensate by focusing on the core spiritual principle of the martial art.
I mean anime (and now manga) has implied that Roshi has been secretly training and closed the gap drastically between himself and the top tier fighters. And he still got defeated by a not-full powered Jiren anyway.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,960
Manga Merged Zamasu: He attacks by throwing really heavy cubes until Goku in Blue just blows half of him with the Beeru´s level Hakai technique....that he learned off screen.
i was reading your OP like "well yeah that's kind of lame" until I reached this part.

just, bruh. talk about overkill. jesus christ. someone reign this man in
 

Superking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,621
Manga Jiren: Master Roshi dodges Jiren easily to try and show Goku how Ultra Instinct is just the basics of Martial Arts all his masters have been trying to teach him. This is after it's stated Jiren can punch faster than time. This gave birth to the Ultra Instinct Roshi jokes.

What the fuck? Toyotaro seemed to do the impossible. He took a character and set up that was already spectacularly bad in the anime and somehow made it infinitely worse.

I admit, that takes talent.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,062
Honestly that explains nearly every technique in Dragonball Goku learned from roshi. He did the kameheha just trying it out in the martial arts tournament lol
Goku did his first Kamehameha in the first arc, not at a tournament.
Also UI is very different, and Roshi wasn't even using it.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,187
I may read the next arc out of morbid curiosity, but I do hope it has nothing to do with the anime when it comes back.


I'll use this post as a reminder that Dragon Garow Lee's awesome 1 volume manga "That Time I Got Reincarnated as Yamcha!" just released in print in English. Please support it so hopefully the better fan-artist-turned-official can have more opportunities in Dragon Ball!
Yamcha book is actually really good better than it had right to be

It honestly could have been longer but otherwise everyone should read it
 

JB2448

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,964
Florida
Pokemon manga is way better than the anime.
It's also completely unrelated to the anime, so it doesn't fit the bill at all.
If you are talking about Pokémon Adventures, that's my jam.
Also my headcanon

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They are talking about pokemon adventures.
Other than being completely irrelevant to the topic and not fitting the bill (I agree about Sadamoto's Evangelion manga Mobu; the ending was actually one of my favorite takes on the franchise yet that seems to match Hideaki Anno's view of the franchise), I'll just pop in here so people can understand how much better it is relative to Toyotarō's Super adaptation.
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I've got plenty of both simple and complex examples that are all just two-page spreads. It's consistently good in terms of both direction and detail.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
Eh

> I find the idea of Hit's most powerful techniques being lethal, and therefore against the rules, more interesting than him just conveniently being a match for Goku's latest form. It's basically the weighted clothing trope.

> The idea that Goku Black wouldn't be fully apprised of his new body's powers, as Saiyans power up to overcome greater challenges, makes sense to me. Also I think his attacks using the Kai's abilities for teleportation and materializing objects is a neat callback to the Buu saga.

> Goku learning Beerus' Hakai technique, and focusing all of his God energy into one hand to pull it off, is hype as hell. But yeah, learning if off screen is sloppy writing.

> I think Kale's form being super powerful, but having the trade-off of killing her, is more interesting than just some new, unexplained powerful form.

> I'm not quite sure what you're describing with Kefla, but she is a better match for Gohan than for Super Saiyan God Goku.

> Ultra Instinct is supposed to be something separate from power, right? I don't think the idea that Master Roshi has mastered it to some extent to be bad - I think it's more interesting than showing his strength by him tanking hits that should kill him outright.

Altogether it seems to have a better grip on power scaling. It isn't just a case of every next character is faster and stronger than the ones before.
 
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SecretCharacter

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,384
Colorado Springs, CO
Literally the only good idea I've seen from the Manga is when Goten, Trunks, and Maron find some Cell Jr's in a cave on the island they're watching. It's a neat throwback and opens the door to some unique story beats that they'll never touch on again.
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,064
i was reading your OP like "well yeah that's kind of lame" until I reached this part.

just, bruh. talk about overkill. jesus christ. someone reign this man in
Not only that but Zamasu vs Vegetto just sucked in the manga. A stomp fight isn't fun at all.

Anime fight is Infinitely better because of this.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
People will think Roshi getting UI and Goku learning the destruction energy will be dope when the anime does it in the next arc. Just like how these people 180'd over Vegeta getting SSGod, Goku switching between god and blue, and the perfected blue form. Haha
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
Jiren is entertaining in a semi-ironic sense.

His ridiculous no-selling, 2stronk4you, "I BREAK TIMESTOPS BY FLEXING" schtick is fun in a way.

He's like if that "his power is maximum" kid had designed an OC while going through a UFO enthusiast phase.
He literally flexes on Hit and time, then goes to take a nap. It's clearly not intentional, but it's hilarious.
 

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,606
There is also that time where he traced a panel from Captain Marvel comic for a V-Jump cover :

 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,819
Both are subpar but I like the manga gave other characters more moments to shine in ToP. Roshi and Gohan had better showings.
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
People will think Roshi getting UI and Goku learning the destruction energy will be dope when the anime does it in the next arc. Just like how these people 180'd over Vegeta getting SSGod, Goku switching between god and blue, and the perfected blue form. Haha

If the anime does it better then, yeah. It's all about execution. I haven't read the manga but the one constant I seem to be getting from this Toyotaro guy is that he seems to come up with interesting ideas but with shit execution.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
People will think Roshi getting UI and Goku learning the destruction energy will be dope when the anime does it in the next arc. Just like how these people 180'd over Vegeta getting SSGod, Goku switching between god and blue, and the perfected blue form. Haha
it's almost like the anime implemented it better
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
it's almost like the anime implemented it better

Except the switching between god and blue wasn't even implemented that differently. You just got bunch of people who just hate anything from the manga, but then act like it's the greatest thing ever when introduced in the anime. So dumb lmao
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Except the switching between god and blue wasn't even implemented that differently. You just got bunch of people who just hate anything from the manga, but then act like it's the greatest thing ever when introduced in the anime. So dumb lmao
It's almost like you get a free pass once and a while if you do a lot of things well and fuck up once or twice versus fucking up constantly and doing one thing halfway decently
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
Except the switching between god and blue wasn't even implemented that differently. You just got bunch of people who just hate anything from the manga, but then act like it's the greatest thing ever when introduced in the anime. So dumb lmao
I feel like you aren't remembering it much.
Because plenty of people complained when they dragged SSG back out for no reason. And complained that they took something Vegeta did and give it to Goku, and that SSG Vegeta only exists to sell toys. Nobody is acting like it's the greatest thing ever. There isn't some Manga hating cabal out there.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
Both are subpar but I like the manga gave other characters more moments to shine in ToP. Roshi and Gohan had better showings.

Virtually everyone literally had less moments to shine in the manga. Roshi only eliminates one person in the manga. Gohan only eliminates Kafla, and that fight in itself was largely off-screened...
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,187
I feel like you aren't remembering it much.
Because plenty of people complained when they dragged SSG back out for no reason. And complained that they took something Vegeta did and give it to Goku, and that SSG Vegeta only exists to sell toys. Nobody is acting like it's the greatest thing ever. There isn't some Manga hating cabal out there.
Yeah I thought I was in a different world because I was in the era thread and most people thought it was dumb
 
OP
OP
Fj0823

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,658
Costa Rica
Except the switching between god and blue wasn't even implemented that differently. You just got bunch of people who just hate anything from the manga, but then act like it's the greatest thing ever when introduced in the anime. So dumb lmao

The switching was in a minor episode where they eliminated this guy.

latest


Why are you acting like it was a big deal? It wasn't. It was a cool way for Goku to match Dyspo for a while. Not the secret formula to beating the major antagonist of the arc.

Again. Execution.

And even with that most people complained that it should've been Vegeta the one to do it. Same with SSG many posters complained about the SSG retcon.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,488
Thing people forget about Roshi is he's been harking on at goku for years about he needs to stop thinking as much about everything and let his body do the talking. He's also super spiritual when it comes to his techniques which is why I think he might be able to dodge jiren. It's also possible jiren doesn't go all out on him as he knows he can't kill him.

Having Roshi show Goku what ultra instinct can do is in all honestly a really sick throwback to how Roshi taught goku a lot of what he knows. That's why the episode of the anime he goes training back at Roshi's with Krillin I thought was one of the best of Super.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,472
Réunion
I have found the manga better than the anime until it reaches the TOP. Then, it gave me the impression that it was botched, like Toyotaro wanted to finish it as soon as possible.

In the end, manga or anime, I think it was just some good ideas but with a poor execution, which is kinda sad when I think about it.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,474
Eh

> I find the idea of Hit's most powerful techniques being lethal, and therefore against the rules, more interesting than him just conveniently being a match for Goku's latest form. It's basically the weighted clothing trope.

> The idea that Goku Black wouldn't be fully apprised of his new body's powers, as Saiyans power up to overcome greater challenges, makes sense to me. Also I think his attacks using the Kai's abilities for teleportation and materializing objects is a neat callback to the Buu saga.

> Goku learning Beerus' Hakai technique, and focusing all of his God energy into one hand to pull it off, is hype as hell. But yeah, learning if off screen is sloppy writing.

> I think Kale's form being super powerful, but having the trade-off of killing her, is more interesting than just some new, unexplained powerful form.

> I'm not quite sure what you're describing with Kefla, but she is a better match for Gohan than for Super Saiyan God Goku.

> Ultra Instinct is supposed to be something separate from power, right? I don't think the idea that Master Roshi has mastered it to some extent to be bad - I think it's more interesting than showing his strength by him tanking hits that should kill him outright.

Altogether it seems to have a better grip on power scaling. It isn't just a case of every next character is faster and stronger than the ones before.

OP seems to think power scaling is irrelevant. Long as it looks cool, you shouldn't ask questions. I've learned to just shrug my shoulders. There's no way I'm arguing with someone who writes that many paragraphs about a show they don't even like.

I'll just say I prefer the manga up until the Tournament of Power arc. All of its arcs left me less frustrated. I will say I'm not big on the ToP arc, but that's not Toyotaro's fault so much as the manga can't give the same amount of time to events the anime did. The anime had 48 episodes--that'd be almost 100 chapters of a weekly manga.
 

Castor

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,215
New York City
Ehh I give the manga the same allowences I gave the anime which is a fucking shitton so I found a lot if things easy to forgive. Honestly find the only problem to be pacing and if it was allowed to be longer it would be better then Super anime. I can't help but laugh when I see shit like Roshi's/17's sacrifice carried more weight in the anime tho. Yeah no. It's the most soulless, bogstandard, boring writing there is but it means something because it's leveraging your strong nostalgia for these characters. That's fine. The Dragonball name has earned that even Super hasn't but miss me with that written well crap. If anything the manga treated it with as much respect as it deserves.
 

FreeMufasa

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,375
Random but I hope we see Master Korin fight in the new series, now that Roshi is back at it. Would be funny if he was up with the saiyans
 
OP
OP
Fj0823

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,658
Costa Rica
OP seems to think power scaling is irrelevant. Long as it looks cool, you shouldn't ask questions. I've learned to just shrug my shoulders. There's no way I'm arguing with someone who writes that many paragraphs about a show they don't even like.

I'll just say I prefer the manga up until the Tournament of Power arc. All of its arcs left me less frustrated. I will say I'm not big on the ToP arc, but that's not Toyotaro's fault so much as the manga can't give the same amount of time to events the anime did. The anime had 48 episodes--that'd be almost 100 chapters of a weekly manga.

No, I care about character, charm and memorable moments and interactions. So yeah, fuck power scaling if it means taking away from the characters. No one cares about characters only talking about their numbers like they do in the manga.

Also you're defending a manga where Kale wiped out 4 Universes offscreen with not a single introduction to their characters,kicked the crap out of Golden Frieza but then got defeated by the lesser Pride Troopers.
A manga where Vegeta lost to Hit because "Super Saiyan Blue Drains 90% of your stamina upon activation" and the next arc had Vegeta switching between god and blue like it was nothing
A manga where Master freaking Roshi dodged punches faster than time.
And where base Gohan tied with a fusion of a Super Saiyan 2 and a Legendary Super Saiyan who defeated Golden Frieza.

So yeah, good power levels amirite?

The original DB and gave zero fucks about power levels if it meant having good character moments. And it was great for it.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
i was reading your OP like "well yeah that's kind of lame" until I reached this part.

just, bruh. talk about overkill. jesus christ. someone reign this man in

Part of the issue with the Trunks arc is that Toyotaro stuck closer to Toriyama's outline there, and in that case it was inherently more unsatisfying than the route Toei took. Trunks having little role after returning, and merged Zamasu being unimpressive were all from Toriyama himself (in Toriyama's outline Goku and Vegeta teaming up would be enough to overpower merged Zamasu - and there wasn't even mastered SSB or anything like that, which Toyotato added to make the battle seem on a higher level without changing the basic story flow. Healer Trunks also was a Toyotaro concept to give him a bigger role without changing that story flow).

I still prefer how Merged Zamasu had a much longer and proper final battle in the manga though, compared to just two episodes in the anime. The introduction of Mastered SSB and Goku being barely able to hold the form held the drama well enough for the final battle, even if it was "just" SSB.

Toyotaro's ToP was a mess though, yes. The chapters before the tournament were good, hyping Toppo more than the anime version, gave a lot more hype to Quitella and introduced a much better version of Jiren, and even more build up to UI, but once the tournament started it was just a wave of bad decisions, like wasting a 40 pages chapter knocking out Tenshinhan and Kuririn without allowing them to do anything, just to set up Freeza beating Frost, someone who was never relevant in the first place.

Jiren's character in general is the one thing the manga version of the ToP arc did well. He had a character flaw (wanting to be an absolute force for justice that could fight by himself, without allies, due to erroneously believing it was his master's last wish, when it was actually the opposite - he should learn the value of working alongside others), but wasn't portrayed in an outright villainous way unlike his anime counterpart.

A manga where Vegeta lost to Hit because "Super Saiyan Blue Drains 90% of your stamina upon activation" and the next arc had Vegeta switching between god and blue like it was nothing.

I think this was a big writing failure on Toyotaro's part, but more about how he completely failed to present the drama of the situation to the readers. SSB in the manga originally had a very high activation cost before settling on a low power. This was why Vegeta lost, yes. But it's not like he'd have a big advantage if he just turned into SSB usually either. That power still would vanish in an instant. It's why Goku waited to use SSB as much as he could and then used all his power into a single Kamehameha (which Hit still dodged) - he wanted to get Hit with a full powered attack. And, yet, the way the chapter was written, especially thanks to the post-battle banter, most readers seem to completely fail to get what was supposed to be the whole urgency behind the situation.

Then in the Trunks arc, eliminating the energy consumption of SSB becomes a plot point, with Vegeta managing to change between SSG and SSB in split seconds with no energy drain and Goku obtaining the mastered SSB form that gave him that power permanently, but damaged his body.

A manga where Master freaking Roshi dodged punches faster than time.

You're mixing the anime with the manga there. In the manga, you just need power higher than Hit's to cancel his powers. The anime is the one that never made that very clear, making it look like the people who break his techniques are moving faster than time.
 
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Castor

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,215
New York City
Huh, no one brought up 17's sacrifice in this thread, other than to mock 18's reaction to it.



*checks

No one used these words in here either. :3
Yeah exactly mocking her reaction to it implying it was somehow better in the anime. It took longer sure but it was melodramatic and dumb. Common we've seen the same topics where people are damn near creaming their pants cus Roshi went down after throwing a Kamehameha like it meant something. I'm talking generally in the community and I'm just using this topic to let it out. You know these takes exist.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,474
No, I care about character, charm and memorable moments and interactions. So yeah, fuck power scaling if it means taking away from the characters. No one cares about characters only talking about their numbers like they do in the manga.

Also you're defending a manga where Kale wiped out 4 Universes offscreen with not a single introduction to their characters,kicked the crap out of Golden Frieza but then got defeated by the lesser Pride Troopers.
A manga where Vegeta lost to Hit because "Super Saiyan Blue Drains 90% of your stamina upon activation" and the next arc had Vegeta switching between god and blue like it was nothing
A manga where Master freaking Roshi dodged punches faster than time.
And where base Gohan tied with a fusion of a Super Saiyan 2 and a Legendary Super Saiyan who defeated Golden Frieza.

So yeah, good power levels amirite?

The original DB and gave zero fucks about power levels if it meant having good character moments. And it was great for it.

- Toyotaro is kinda struggling for time here. He gets...what, sixty pages a month? Barely three chapters. He wanted to get to the next thing. Plus frankly, I'm fine with Kale wrecking other universes--Universe 7 did WAY too much in the anime. And her beating someone who tried to match her in power but getting wrecked by people who had good teamwork? That's cool.
- That's not new at all, fam. The major weakness of Super Saiyan was that it drained too much energy, so while Goku was in the Time Chamber he practiced SSJ until he figured out how to master it, lessening the amount of ki it used up so he could draw on greater reserves in battle. He surpassed Vegeta in that instance. Vegeta just learned from his loss and Goku's training.
- Look, ya'll are fine with Krillin going head to head with SSBlue Goku. Ya'll say "Well he wasn't fighting seriously". Well shit, Jiren wasn't really fighting Roshi seriously. As soon as he was, he knocked Roshi out with one hit because his pale imitation of Ultra Instinct was decidedly not Ultra Instinct. Plus there was a pretty sweet moment that came from him getting eliminated. You might not have liked it, but "I'm Son Goku of the Turtle School" actually really connected with me.
- You're asking me to defend the ToP which I already said I have problems with, and haven't even finished yet. Was it BASE Gohan or was it "Mystic" Gohan, which is now (for some stupid reason) a power up?

And no one's stated a "number" in the Super manga...literally ever, man. They explain why characters can do what they do, but you're acting like the dialogue is literally "Goku's powerlevel went up from a billion to one point two billion. There's no chance he loses now."