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Dragon Quest Community Thread |OT| Party Chat
- Thread starter Hecht
- Start date
"I think this humility is most evident in his own final sacrifice at the end, where he sacrifices the powers of the Luminary - and potentially this entire timeline of the world itself, depending on how you interpret the ending - to allow Serenica to return to Erdwin. His final act as Luminary isn't defeating Calasmos and saving the world; it's sacrificing his own power to save the love of one couple. The perfect close to a subtle character arc throughout the game in which he demonstrates his affinity for personal relationships and "micro-level" helping others rather than grandstanding as a legendary talisman of goodness."
I think this is interesting; hadn't considered this before. I think the ending reinforces this point in other ways, namely:
"I like framing Act 3 as the Hero's wish to become the Hero he wanted to be, rather than the one that he was. And I particularly like it because it introduces a bit of juicy ambiguity into the Hero's motive. Is this really about Veronica? Or is it about him? While he undoubtedly cares about stopping Veronica from dying, there's certainly a tension, especially at the beginning of Act 3, between this noble goal and the notion that all of his friends are left behind, either in an alternate timeline without him, or else transported back into the past where all of their experiences and their growth/victories (Sylvando with his father, Erik with his sister, etc.) are undone. Whose call was this, really? Was it the party's as a whole, or was it the Hero's? Notable in this scene is that the Sword of Light that they spent a wonderful cutscene forging together is shattered into pieces when it strikes the Orb of Time; is this a blatant sacrifice of his friends and their experiences in order to pursue a white whale of "having a chance to do better"? Or all they all on the same page with this? As usual with DQ, the silence is as pregnant with meaning as the actual words are. This is suggestive, subtle writing and unfortunately it's something that I feel a lot of people brush off as basic or derivative, or else take entirely at face value without questioning any of the underlying uncertainties."
"I also like how Act 3 "pushes that idea further back" of righting the past with the first set of heroes too. In the Act 2 ending, these heroes are just legends to be emulated; in Act 3, they become real people, with real flaws, insecurities, tragedies and failures, and the Hero helps them in a more personal and affecting way. Ultimately, it's only as a response to his biggest failure - allowing Calasmos to be reborn - that the Hero achieves his greatest success (setting injustices of ages past right at last). A nice symmetry that continues the theme of light and darkness coexisting, but in reverse from how it's framed earlier in the game. There, the question was whether the light of the Luminary himself begets the darkness; in Act 3, it is the supreme, cosmic darkness of Calasmos and the threat he poses, that leads to the Luminary achieving so much."
I'm not sure--with the way it is presented, your companions see it as a sacrifice. Now, I think that can in turn fall back into the sort of thing you are thinking about, namely how much is guilt and wanting to set things right about who you can live with being and how much is it about setting things right. These things, moreover, are intertwined, as so much of the hero he wants to be is about being there for others. I think there is a great element of affirmation of the hero in the ending of DQXI. I think that is undeniable. I think that is a large part of the point and is what we've been talking about.
At the same time, I don't think it is particularly critical of said affirmation. Again, I think Calasmos coming back, unlike Mordegon coming to power, is not framed as a failure. Act 3 is decidedly not act 2. It is triumphant and about resolution. The angst and suffering with destiny is left, instead, to the heroes past. Our heroes have gone past that in act 2, I think.
I think this is a peculiar feature of the Calasmos story, namely that it is framed as a heroic obstacle rather than "the price of time travel."
Like DQV, I think Time Travel is a miracle in DQXI. Unlike in DQV, it does not avert an inescapable fate but rather undoes it and rewrites it, but these are very similar stories imo.
"I love how useful Hendrik is, and how he has an entirely unique role that really can't be filled adequately by anyone else (compare this to, say, Jade and Erik who are both physical attackers, or Serena and Rab who are both healers). Holding Hendrik until the beginning of Act 2, and then giving him such a crucial and unique role in the party's composition, really creates a sense of power and utility that perfectly communicates his in-universe reputation as a legendary knight. I also like that, unlike every other member of the team, Hendrik covers both weapon types that the Hero has skill trees for (i.e. Swords and Greatswords); potentially a neat little gameplay-as-storytelling touch to indicate that Hendrik has the Hero covered, and he can really focus on that third skill tree - being the Luminary!"
"Part of the reason why his shield is so immensely useful is because of how offensively you're encouraged to play with the rest of the party members. It's a nice change of pace from earlier entries, where my own strategy was often to focus on turtling up and dishing out moderate, but consistent damage while running a well-oiled buff/heal machine. Here, in DQ11, I felt like there was more variety in how I approached boss fights in the later acts, because of how many build options each character had, with Hendrik as a perfect defensive foundation for building hyper aggressive builds for the other three active members."
I really like these thoughts. They synthesize Hendrik's place in the narrative with his place in battle quite well. I had not connected the two in my head, but they go together beautifully!
I think this is interesting; hadn't considered this before. I think the ending reinforces this point in other ways, namely:
"I like framing Act 3 as the Hero's wish to become the Hero he wanted to be, rather than the one that he was. And I particularly like it because it introduces a bit of juicy ambiguity into the Hero's motive. Is this really about Veronica? Or is it about him? While he undoubtedly cares about stopping Veronica from dying, there's certainly a tension, especially at the beginning of Act 3, between this noble goal and the notion that all of his friends are left behind, either in an alternate timeline without him, or else transported back into the past where all of their experiences and their growth/victories (Sylvando with his father, Erik with his sister, etc.) are undone. Whose call was this, really? Was it the party's as a whole, or was it the Hero's? Notable in this scene is that the Sword of Light that they spent a wonderful cutscene forging together is shattered into pieces when it strikes the Orb of Time; is this a blatant sacrifice of his friends and their experiences in order to pursue a white whale of "having a chance to do better"? Or all they all on the same page with this? As usual with DQ, the silence is as pregnant with meaning as the actual words are. This is suggestive, subtle writing and unfortunately it's something that I feel a lot of people brush off as basic or derivative, or else take entirely at face value without questioning any of the underlying uncertainties."
"I also like how Act 3 "pushes that idea further back" of righting the past with the first set of heroes too. In the Act 2 ending, these heroes are just legends to be emulated; in Act 3, they become real people, with real flaws, insecurities, tragedies and failures, and the Hero helps them in a more personal and affecting way. Ultimately, it's only as a response to his biggest failure - allowing Calasmos to be reborn - that the Hero achieves his greatest success (setting injustices of ages past right at last). A nice symmetry that continues the theme of light and darkness coexisting, but in reverse from how it's framed earlier in the game. There, the question was whether the light of the Luminary himself begets the darkness; in Act 3, it is the supreme, cosmic darkness of Calasmos and the threat he poses, that leads to the Luminary achieving so much."
I'm not sure--with the way it is presented, your companions see it as a sacrifice. Now, I think that can in turn fall back into the sort of thing you are thinking about, namely how much is guilt and wanting to set things right about who you can live with being and how much is it about setting things right. These things, moreover, are intertwined, as so much of the hero he wants to be is about being there for others. I think there is a great element of affirmation of the hero in the ending of DQXI. I think that is undeniable. I think that is a large part of the point and is what we've been talking about.
At the same time, I don't think it is particularly critical of said affirmation. Again, I think Calasmos coming back, unlike Mordegon coming to power, is not framed as a failure. Act 3 is decidedly not act 2. It is triumphant and about resolution. The angst and suffering with destiny is left, instead, to the heroes past. Our heroes have gone past that in act 2, I think.
I think this is a peculiar feature of the Calasmos story, namely that it is framed as a heroic obstacle rather than "the price of time travel."
Like DQV, I think Time Travel is a miracle in DQXI. Unlike in DQV, it does not avert an inescapable fate but rather undoes it and rewrites it, but these are very similar stories imo.
"I love how useful Hendrik is, and how he has an entirely unique role that really can't be filled adequately by anyone else (compare this to, say, Jade and Erik who are both physical attackers, or Serena and Rab who are both healers). Holding Hendrik until the beginning of Act 2, and then giving him such a crucial and unique role in the party's composition, really creates a sense of power and utility that perfectly communicates his in-universe reputation as a legendary knight. I also like that, unlike every other member of the team, Hendrik covers both weapon types that the Hero has skill trees for (i.e. Swords and Greatswords); potentially a neat little gameplay-as-storytelling touch to indicate that Hendrik has the Hero covered, and he can really focus on that third skill tree - being the Luminary!"
"Part of the reason why his shield is so immensely useful is because of how offensively you're encouraged to play with the rest of the party members. It's a nice change of pace from earlier entries, where my own strategy was often to focus on turtling up and dishing out moderate, but consistent damage while running a well-oiled buff/heal machine. Here, in DQ11, I felt like there was more variety in how I approached boss fights in the later acts, because of how many build options each character had, with Hendrik as a perfect defensive foundation for building hyper aggressive builds for the other three active members."
I really like these thoughts. They synthesize Hendrik's place in the narrative with his place in battle quite well. I had not connected the two in my head, but they go together beautifully!
Last edited:
Deleted member 47619
Guest
Hi, everyone. I'm new to this forum but I've been a Dragon Quest fan for quite awhile. The Dragon Quest games I've finished so far are Dragon Quest 1-5. I'm almost finished 6 and 9, and I've played some of Torneko's Mystery Dungeon(the first one) as well. Out of all the games I've played so far, Dragon Quest/Warrior IV is my favourite because I love the little details of it's world building, characters and story.
Does anyone know the recommended level I should be before attempting the final area in DQV (SNES version)
I'm on level 39 and my kids (Dave and Stacey) are level 35
The legendary hero being called Dave will never stop being funny to me
I'm on level 39 and my kids (Dave and Stacey) are level 35
The legendary hero being called Dave will never stop being funny to me
Welcome!
Just beat the PS2 version and I got my ass kicked being on Level 40, so I upped my party to 45 and it was just enough.
Thanks, though I assume it's going to work slightly differently for the other versions
So far the SNES version has been pretty easy but the monsters in the demon world are hitting really hard even though I have all the best equipment from the town in the demon world on my main party
I just want to know if I need to grind before going to the final dungeon or will I be ok at 39/35/35
That said now money isn't an issue I could just try it and see what happens, since dying won't cost me exp
There's always the bank in these games too if you're not sure how prepared you are for something.
Yeah, I've spent all my money now on equipment in the demon world town
I feel like an idiot though because I thought you could only have 3 human characters in your party, but I ditched some filler monsters and now have my wife and kids with my team
I'm trying to level everyone up to a point where they can get me to the final boss then I can switch out to my A team for the final boss
Everyone is level 41-30 now so hopefully not long to go
I'm not sure what I think of there being chests to collect in the open world part of DQVIII. I always try and be really thorough with finding stuff in these games but there's a lot of ground to cover here and a lot of the time I don't even end up finding anything.
I think with it being closer to the earlier games overworld design they could have done without them and just kept the focus on finding your next location to go. Though I think they figured that out with XI, that if they want to have stuff to collect on the map that having more of a defined area outside of dungeons/towns helps.
I think with it being closer to the earlier games overworld design they could have done without them and just kept the focus on finding your next location to go. Though I think they figured that out with XI, that if they want to have stuff to collect on the map that having more of a defined area outside of dungeons/towns helps.
I personally love 8's exploration. It's a perfect evolution of the exploration in prior games. I hate that it's dumbed down in 11. DQ is supposed to be about exploration, not going from point a to b.
Omfggg
I really do agree with this. It was just about the chests, but I like the scale it gives to the world in 8 the way it is. For the kind of unmarked things to find concept I liked exploring the ocean floor for places in 6 when you didn't even have a map for down there.
I like that the chests and monsters give you a reason to explore every nook and cranny in 8.
V was my first DQ game, and I think I'm going to play III and IV at some point before moving onto the more recent ones, but I was unsure about VI as I don't hear it discussed that often
I'll probably take a break before playing another DQ game as V took me 35 hours over 3 months to beat
III, IV, V are probably the classic "holy trinity" and exemplify the various things going on with DQ in tightly paced, easy-to-grasp packages.
VII is the epitome of DQ's vignette focus and a game with a very interesting narrative/game structure, which it exploits magnificently.
VIII is less narratively brilliant but has a strong focus on its charming cast and further manages to reproduce a classic DQ experience at high production values.
These are probably the games people talk about the most, leaving I, II, VI, and IX less talked about.
III sort of overshadows--both in the fandom and in the games themselves--I, II as the ultimate statement of the foundational DQ Hero's narrative, but I and II develop it and are charming in their own right. They are very much worth playing.
DQVI is less straightforward than its Zenithian brethren. It is also overshadowed by DQVII and CT, which play around with some of the same structural ideas. People talk about those games more, but this doesn't mean DQVI isn't great and isn't an important part of that design conversation. It does its own special things and has its own strengths. I also think DQVI is interesting in how it refracts the DQ hero's narrative over its unique structure; it is playing more with the traditional story than VII and CT.
DQIX is generally remembered most favorably by those who played it multiplayer in my experience. I liked it at launch, but haven't gone back to it since so I can't really say more than that.
VII is the epitome of DQ's vignette focus and a game with a very interesting narrative/game structure, which it exploits magnificently.
VIII is less narratively brilliant but has a strong focus on its charming cast and further manages to reproduce a classic DQ experience at high production values.
These are probably the games people talk about the most, leaving I, II, VI, and IX less talked about.
III sort of overshadows--both in the fandom and in the games themselves--I, II as the ultimate statement of the foundational DQ Hero's narrative, but I and II develop it and are charming in their own right. They are very much worth playing.
DQVI is less straightforward than its Zenithian brethren. It is also overshadowed by DQVII and CT, which play around with some of the same structural ideas. People talk about those games more, but this doesn't mean DQVI isn't great and isn't an important part of that design conversation. It does its own special things and has its own strengths. I also think DQVI is interesting in how it refracts the DQ hero's narrative over its unique structure; it is playing more with the traditional story than VII and CT.
DQIX is generally remembered most favorably by those who played it multiplayer in my experience. I liked it at launch, but haven't gone back to it since so I can't really say more than that.
Thanks for the write up
What's the best way to play III and IV for someone who doesn't like mobile and doesn't have a DS?
I feel like my opinion of 11 has lessened about some stuff compared to when I played it. Since I've played most the series since then. Also not sure if I just wasn't in the right mood for it that other day but my opinion about the full exploration experience in 8 has changed.
Yeah, I think it's the further we get from 11's release, the more consensus will start to shake out. When I finished the Japanese version I was like 'this is the best one yet' a year out I'm not so sure about that. It's like your favourite film or book it changes all the time. At the moment, I'm thinking 4 is the best one.
Well since I finished 11 I've also played 2-6 + playing through 8. Previously I had only finished 1 and 7 before playing 11. But there can be that bias to the new thing as well.
Honestly, I usually give the edge to DQ4 but DQ5 is right up there with it for me. A lot of the series bunches up for me and they are attractive for different reasons.
I think DQXI is a really strong entry. It strikes me as a modern Zenithia game—it imports the classic DQ hero narrative and then warps it around a narrative/world structure towards its own narrative ends. Plus, like DQIV it has a charming ensemble cast with well defined roles and very pleasing ability profiles/growth. This is very much up my alley.
I do think the structure is more cumbersome and there are some awkward and/or dissapointng points, but overall it is remarkably strong.
I really like the battles and the characters in battle. I do think there's something to criticism along dungeon crawling lines but it didn't really affect my enjoyment, at least on an initial playthrough.
I think DQXI is a really strong entry. It strikes me as a modern Zenithia game—it imports the classic DQ hero narrative and then warps it around a narrative/world structure towards its own narrative ends. Plus, like DQIV it has a charming ensemble cast with well defined roles and very pleasing ability profiles/growth. This is very much up my alley.
I do think the structure is more cumbersome and there are some awkward and/or dissapointng points, but overall it is remarkably strong.
I really like the battles and the characters in battle. I do think there's something to criticism along dungeon crawling lines but it didn't really affect my enjoyment, at least on an initial playthrough.
The Heroes games are worth to play? I would like to play them just for the interaction between characters, and I'm more willing to play the one which feature the most funnies moments for Kyril and Alena. Ah, and I have a PS4, so I hope to grab DQ XI for Christmas ^_^
Yeah, they're worth a go around. DQH is more simplistic than DQH2 but it's still fun. The characters retain their charm to and the bits where they're interacting with one another are cute. I'd say the quality of the writing isn't up to the standard of the main games. DQH certainly won't pull at the heartstrings like a main DQ. They're silly fun and if that's what you're after go for it.
At this point those music threads feel like overkill, I don't find the music in 11 to be spectacular, but is also not the second coming of Sonic Brotherhood, Yoshi New Island, and Crazy Bus like people make it out to be, after 45 hours I feel that is pretty standard RPG snes music
I'm 80 hours in, savoring the game very slowly, and I can say XI is kind of an oddball.
It does many things differently than other titles, and almost feels like another game, but it's still incredibly good on its own right. It does well what it proposes to do, it's just not your regular DQ experience.
I don't know if this is what the series is going to be like moving forward, but I wish we could get another one more akin to DQ8.
It does many things differently than other titles, and almost feels like another game, but it's still incredibly good on its own right. It does well what it proposes to do, it's just not your regular DQ experience.
I don't know if this is what the series is going to be like moving forward, but I wish we could get another one more akin to DQ8.
Dragon Quest Monsters 20th anniversary livestream is currently going on http://live2.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv316489494
Same. Just beating V for the first time, I'm all for giving the series a try now.
Looking at that shot of artwork first, I thought, "Oh, looks like Erik." Then I read the post XD.
Not far enough in XI yet to recognize who the girl on the right is (should I be worried? I'm only at the initial Sylvando intro/Gallopolis section, my play through has been slow because of work and because I enabled "tough monsters " which I love for keeping me on my toes, but requires a bit more grinding)
Speaking of XI, bringing up the exploration aspect brought up by Mirage and Linkura
When I played FFX when it first came out, it was SO disappointing to see these pretty environments but the lack of camera control really hampered the experience. I couldn't believe how a little removal like airship graphics really hampers the experience. And then it really highlights the lack of exploration and really started the downward trend of the series turning into a boring "hallway simulator" Point A to B series.
Then DQ VIII came out and felt like such a nice breath of fresh air. Everything felt so alive! Felt like a kid again having to explore and find the right way to go. Then I played FFXII which I feel was a huge improvement to X. You had locales that really felt alive and I stopped at many spots in to admire the scenery, but it was still mostly a "Point A to B" with little "trial and error exploring" like classic games. With DQXI, I wouldn't say I'm as disappointed as Linkura , but I;m REALLY spoiled by the likes of XBC1, XCX, and Breath of the Wild. Hell, even DQ Builders had a great sense of rewarding exploration.
DQ XI is reminding me of FFXII. It's JUST. GORGEOUS! But it is a little lacking in exploration. Could you just IMAGINE if the series had an over world like XCX or BotW. Like, imagine a 3D remake of DQ1 where running from Tantegel to Galenholm took a good 5-10 minutes.
I'm closing my eyes and not liking what I'm seeing.
By the by, if you like running for a long time DQ10 is the game for you.
I phrased that kinda weird, but I mean, the series could do a BotW and have that kind of distance between the big towns. In that space could have plenty of stuff in between. I'm not saying straight remake that makes it huge with nothing in between.
Also, I'm optimistic that XI's modest success might be the push SE needs to give us X. I'd gladly play an offline version if possible.
I like the concept of exploration in VIII more than XI but I still think it kind of missed the point. In IX, where I've stressed that postgame is the game, the reward of exploration is mostly in the form of treasure maps. That's a step in the right direction but they took it way too far in IX.
I'm spoiled by III. Most people forget that the Romaly and Noaniel quests are entirely optional (but I mean, what else are you gonna do between first arriving at Romaly and getting strong enough to take on the Pyramid). There are shrines, towns and towers all over the map that serve no purpose other than to be discovered, yet they add depth. The lower level of the Promontory Cave is superfluous. The Tower of Arp has the echo flute, which you don't need but it is relevant to the main quest. Muor lets you catch up to MC's father a bit. There's a teleportal shrine south of Isis with a sentry who wonders why no one from Tedanki has been by in a while. There are little forgotten islands here and there. These aren't main story essentials. They're not quests. They're rewards for scouring the map.
A random chest here and there isn't the worst thing, but it's lazy and not emotionally satisfying for the effort. Then XI figures that's a pain and learns the wrong lesson -- now you get to forage but the map will show you where to go. So we've gone from, "Whoa, there's a village here," to, "Proceed to the sparkly to get a free bat wing." I get that townbuilding isn't as easy as painting tiles these days but it's not like the Easter eggs in DQ3 were expansive, and that was much of the charm. The lack of depth on the frontier (or lack of a frontier itself in the case of XI) doesn't ruin either game but it does constrain the experience to something more linear.
I'm spoiled by III. Most people forget that the Romaly and Noaniel quests are entirely optional (but I mean, what else are you gonna do between first arriving at Romaly and getting strong enough to take on the Pyramid). There are shrines, towns and towers all over the map that serve no purpose other than to be discovered, yet they add depth. The lower level of the Promontory Cave is superfluous. The Tower of Arp has the echo flute, which you don't need but it is relevant to the main quest. Muor lets you catch up to MC's father a bit. There's a teleportal shrine south of Isis with a sentry who wonders why no one from Tedanki has been by in a while. There are little forgotten islands here and there. These aren't main story essentials. They're not quests. They're rewards for scouring the map.
A random chest here and there isn't the worst thing, but it's lazy and not emotionally satisfying for the effort. Then XI figures that's a pain and learns the wrong lesson -- now you get to forage but the map will show you where to go. So we've gone from, "Whoa, there's a village here," to, "Proceed to the sparkly to get a free bat wing." I get that townbuilding isn't as easy as painting tiles these days but it's not like the Easter eggs in DQ3 were expansive, and that was much of the charm. The lack of depth on the frontier (or lack of a frontier itself in the case of XI) doesn't ruin either game but it does constrain the experience to something more linear.
Yooooo this actually makes sense.Erik and Mia will be the protagonists of the new Dragon Quest Monsters game that will not be a mobile game.
Of the DQM series, I've only played Joker, and it was ok. Not really a collect-a-monster type of person. I'll probably try this though.
Deleted member 47619
Guest
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome.
Anyways, I don't find it too surprising that Camus/Erik is going to be one of the main characters for the upcoming DQM game. He's pretty popular among the Japanese side of the DQ fandom(I think he's fairly popular with overseas fans too, if I'm not mistaken). I do wonder if this game will be brought over since Square Enix tends to be inconsistent when it comes to localizing Dragon Quest games.
Anyways, I don't find it too surprising that Camus/Erik is going to be one of the main characters for the upcoming DQM game. He's pretty popular among the Japanese side of the DQ fandom(I think he's fairly popular with overseas fans too, if I'm not mistaken). I do wonder if this game will be brought over since Square Enix tends to be inconsistent when it comes to localizing Dragon Quest games.
It also makes a lot of sense as the original DQM had Terry and Mireyu, also brother and sister, as the main characters. Now they have another brother/sister pair for the series.
I wouldn't get my hopes up. The last three entries in the series (1 numbered and 2 remakes) weren't localized.