Dreams Creator Early Access |OT| Hey Now, This Is What Dreams Are Made Of

Controller Preference

  • Only used DS4

    Votes: 27 48.2%
  • Only used Move

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • Used both, prefer DS4

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • Used both, prefer Move

    Votes: 10 17.9%
  • Used both, like them equally

    Votes: 11 19.6%

  • Total voters
    56

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
Oh, sweet. That'll definitely help. Thank you. I'm definitely not the best at math, so I don't know, but do you think it might be possible to calculate the cosine of x from the sine of x in a way that's cheaper than calculating it directly from x? Or a way to calculate both at once in a way that's cheaper than calculating them separately?
There is an identity which relates sin(x) to the magnitude cos(x), but I think it may be almost as expensive to exploit it as to calculate them separately. I've released 'Cheap Sine & Cosine (degrees) (Bhakskara)' which does this, but currently it's a very small thermometer saving over using the individual sine and cosine components.

I also fixed a bug with the sine/cosine/tangent relating to negative angles. A lot of the cost of these components right now comes down to having to handle inputs beyond a certain range (0-180 for sine, -90 to 90 for cosine, 0 to 90 for tangent). I think I might be able to improve this area a bit, but if you knew what the lower/upper limits of your potential inputs were, it might open up more optimisation potential.

My guess is that it's because somebody with either a lot of clout or loud opinions at MM hates math and programming and thinks adding features like this to logic will over-complicate things and scare away the normies.
Eh, I'd be a bit surprised if this was the reason, but we'll see I guess. I think they'll add it eventually in some form to be honest, too easy/obvious.

I know dreams doesn’t do arrays (would be nice) - but could you use a lookup table for sin/cos?
Yes, but only if you could cope with having a delay between wanting to read a value and actually reading it, which is probably viable for some cases. I've built a couple of array system in Dreams but have never really battle tested them as I've never actually needed an array. One of them is published 'Scalable Flexible Array System', and the other is more experimental but I think quite a bit cleverer, but not yet published. The principle in both case is that there are physical elements of data and 'heads' which are able to read/write to them. There's an inevitable delay between the moment that you tell the head where to move and the moment that it gives you the value it read (presumably it's just one frame). If that is an acceptable constraint, then this can definitely be done.

If this interests anyone, I could probably publish a lookup table based sin/cos pretty quickly. Would be cheaper than calculating it for sure.
 
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Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,597
logic is already extremely difficult for most people and i still think some parts could stand to be easier than they already are

its really hard to have a clue of what you should be doing even if you know what you want to execute in gameplay
 

Ryo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
955
I made a bit more progress on a Portal project today which is a load of other peoples stuff cobbled together, it's a bit janky but the foundation is there. It's remixable.

 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
logic is already extremely difficult for most people and i still think some parts could stand to be easier than they already are

its really hard to have a clue of what you should be doing even if you know what you want to execute in gameplay
Honestly I'm just a bit peeved at how underwhelming logic is compared to the other tools. It's probably the only thing Project Spark did better. It's a real shame.
I've not used Project Spark (guess I never will now...), and actually Dreams is my only experience of a game engine aside from Unity, Unreal and the in-house engine I work with in my career so I've never really dealt with any similar systems. I've gone back and forth over the question of whether I think they've struck the right balance with the logic, but currently I think they've found about as good a balance as they could short of making multiple systems for different levels of user. There are areas where it could be better, for sure, and I'm sure they'll add and improve over time, but if they made it significantly easier I think it would become too constrained and if they made it significantly more powerful I fear it would be completely out of reach for a layperson.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,597
i can't remember if they've said anything about what theyll add in the future. im probably totally blanking on it and they may have talked about the things that will be in the future release.

i hope they eventually add more functions to the camera gadgets. the solutions to getting a close camera like in Resident Evil 2 Remake for example are just so unnecessarily goofy. Same thing with programming in a lock-on that isn't a pain in the ass. i feel like things relating to player camera behavior should be as simple as hitting a switch on the proper gadget but that's not actually a thing.

i do get that it's a tough tightrope for them to walk though. and theyve already done so much for 30 bucks so i feel a bit silly complaining about it in the end
 

AmericanKirby

Member
Aug 31, 2018
540
Inside your house
I've gone back and forth over the question of whether I think they've struck the right balance with the logic, but currently I think they've found about as good a balance as they could short of making multiple systems for different levels of user. There are areas where it could be better, for sure, and I'm sure they'll add and improve over time, but if they made it significantly easier I think it would become too constrained and if they made it significantly more powerful I fear it would be completely out of reach for a layperson.
Honestly, I'm not so sure finding that balance is even possible. Personally I and quite a few other people think it's way too constrained (We can't even have arrays and text strings, really?) while most people who know nothing about game dev or coding think it's way too complex. Neither group is wrong per se and I have no idea how you'd appeal to both of them.

Funnily enough, I remember someone at MM mentioning that at one point they were planning on having a scripting language in Dreams but they ultimately scrapped the idea. So that idea of having two different systems for people of two different skill levels may have almost happened. Or maybe it was just an idea they scrapped early on, who knows?

i do get that it's a tough tightrope for them to walk though. and theyve already done so much for 30 bucks so i feel a bit silly complaining about it in the end
Yeah same. The other tools are so good that I feel bad complaining about logic so much, lol.

i can't remember if they've said anything about what theyll add in the future. im probably totally blanking on it and they may have talked about the things that will be in the future release.
Could have sworn they released a planned features / roadmap type thing recently, but I can't seem to find it.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
Honestly, I'm not so sure finding that balance is even possible. Personally I and quite a few other people think it's way too constrained (We can't even have arrays and text strings, really?) while most people who know nothing about game dev or coding think it's way too complex. Neither group is wrong per se and I have no idea how you'd appeal to both of them.
I'd think there's a decent chance some of this kind of stuff will be implemented as time goes on at least. Some things don't fit quite as easily into a gadget/wiring kind of system as they do into scripting/programming. Right now MM's focus is on the stuff that is going to be most useful to most people, but they're well aware that there are also things that creators want/need that are quite specific. The thing is, I don't really find Dreams logic system to be particularly constrained... it's just got some painful limitations in specific areas and some slightly weird gaps in others. In many respects it's actually really powerful, and you can go deep with it. Can be a bit of a puzzle at times though.

Funnily enough, I remember someone at MM mentioning that at one point they were planning on having a scripting language in Dreams but they ultimately scrapped the idea. So that idea of having two different systems for people of two different skill levels may have almost happened. Or maybe it was just an idea they scrapped early on, who knows?
Yeah that rings a bell for me too. A shame perhaps that they went this way, but managing two systems would have had a lot of downsides I guess.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,682
Paris
Maybe attach a mover with 0 velocity and max damping to the puppet. Activate it for 0.1 seconds after the puppet hits the ground, if it's been travelling above a certain speed in the the y-axis.
Thx! for now it seems to be less a problem. I made the jump smaller to begin with cause the camera never really follows quick enough and it's difficult to see where you go anyway.

Level 1 kinda done but the 3 stars is a little too easy for my taste. I'll see if i can make it more interesting. Also i have the music to do still.

 

GC-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,071
Decided I may as well start messing about with creating gameplay as I’d only messed with sculpt and wanted to do some very primitive level layouts to get to grips with those sets of tools and came across an issue I couldn’t see a tutorial for. Do I always have to use a basic/deluxe character thingy for a player character?
 

George c

Member
Dec 1, 2017
98
Yeah, it’s the bright piano, feel free to use it for your tests, though replacing the instrument might be a little bit of a hassle, made it of many parts as you can see in the video :)

I’m hoping we get some way to copy notes from piano roll to piano roll eventually.

There is already a way. Just take a new instrument, say the soft piano and place it over the old track that had the bright piano. And if you don't want to replace what piano roll you already have, clone it first. So when I get my new piano instrument set up it should only take a min to switch a piano arrangement over.
 

Evolved1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,222
Pennsylvania
Yeah... so Morning-Nya has a new thing. It's similar to Lost Planet and some of it is super slick. HUD elements like a working compass, Dead Space like hologram info, wicked reload animation on the primary. It's something. Wish I wasn't working 60-70 hrs a week right now.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,762
Decided I may as well start messing about with creating gameplay as I’d only messed with sculpt and wanted to do some very primitive level layouts to get to grips with those sets of tools and came across an issue I couldn’t see a tutorial for. Do I always have to use a basic/deluxe character thingy for a player character?
No, but if you're doing a humanoid character it's a REALLY good template. You can attach controls and health to anything but it takes a ton of work.
 

burgervan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
Spent the weekend making the intro for the full version of Cubric, which I hope to have finished in the next week or two. I'm super happy with how it turned out!
 

Conal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
407
Spent the weekend making the intro for the full version of Cubric, which I hope to have finished in the next week or two. I'm super happy with how it turned out!
That's amazing. The only thing I'd probably add is a slight increase to the glow and maybe a sonic cue when the C flips.

Something to indicate the 'puzzle' has been solved.
 

burgervan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
That's amazing. The only thing I'd probably add is a slight increase to the glow and maybe a sonic cue when the C flips.

Something to indicate the 'puzzle' has been solved.
There is a sound, but it might be hard to hear over the music. When you say glow, do you mean the letters? There's a lot of glowing things in this game lol
 

Conal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
407
There is a sound, but it might be hard to hear over the music. When you say glow, do you mean the letters? There's a lot of glowing things in this game lol
I was listening on my shitty phone speakers so I probably missed the sound!

The letters themselves have this really nice glow to them and when the C turned for some reason I instinctively expected them to 'pulse' brighter for a second and then return back to their initial brightness.

Although to be honest I'm not sure why I expected that. Maybe I've seen it done on film/game studio logos before? I'll try and find an example of what I mean.
 

burgervan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
I was listening on my shitty phone speakers so I probably missed the sound!

The letters themselves have this really nice glow to them and when the C turned for some reason I instinctively expected them to 'pulse' brighter for a second and then return back to their initial brightness.

Although to be honest I'm not sure why I expected that. Maybe I've seen it done on film/game studio logos before? I'll try and find an example of what I mean.
I actually had that exact thing happen in an earlier version. I forget why I didn't keep it. Maybe I'll add it back in.
 

bushmonkey

Member
Oct 29, 2017
372
I've not used Project Spark (guess I never will now...), and actually Dreams is my only experience of a game engine aside from Unity, Unreal and the in-house engine I work with in my career so I've never really dealt with any similar systems. I've gone back and forth over the question of whether I think they've struck the right balance with the logic, but currently I think they've found about as good a balance as they could short of making multiple systems for different levels of user. There are areas where it could be better, for sure, and I'm sure they'll add and improve over time, but if they made it significantly easier I think it would become too constrained and if they made it significantly more powerful I fear it would be completely out of reach for a layperson.
I used Project Spark quite a lot and never liked how the logic system worked, it required far too much input and the logic tree got far too convoouted. Debugging project spark was a nightmare. I much prefer dreams approach overall. Now, saying that, my 10 year old son loves project sparks, he still has it installed on his PC and builds games with it all the time, I tried to get him into Dreams but he hates it, he can't get his head around the logic system so it looks like there's no clear answers, it depends on what system 'clicks' for you.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,762
So I'm making more progress. I've blocked out six rooms with no problem. Each rooms makes for a tiny bit more on the thermometer but I think as long as I reuse elements it should be fine. I might also divide the thing into levels, although I will want to move back and forth between them and I don't know if that's possible. Can I make a door two-way?

I'm having some issues with the grid. When I paste something from my collection into the world it doesn't align, so I have to resnap everything at least once. I like how easy it is to square everything up though. Even if there is some drift down the line from things not exactly being in line, you can just fix it as you go.

Now, a design question. I have these stairs which are made up of four steps per actual block. In the original Airball, you needed to jump up these, so I've set up invisible blocks. I could probably just let the ball roll up the stairs naturally, but it doesn't really go with the flow. What do you think?
 

T-800

Member
Oct 30, 2017
26
Love the version of Geometry Wars. Look at it almost daily to see if there are any updates. Plays so well.

Would it be possible to make a game like Galaga or Galaxian that came across just as well ie don't look like they are a game made within a game?
 

shaneo632

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,050
Essex, UK
I wish they would switch up the featured levels a bit. I waited a few weeks between and they were mostly the same. Granted we're still early days.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,641
Liking the tweaked discoverability but now I’m stuck playing this dumb cookie clicker for an hour :p

Although I hit a bug which is a pain
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,762
How do I change the range of sounds being played? I have an effect set to a block which makes a sharp fire sound if I hit it. That one plays fine regardless. Then I have another effect set to a water area to play a splashing sound when I enter a zone. But this sound has a "hearable" zone attached to it, and since my camera is really far out I also have to extend this zone really far out. How do I just make a sound play regardless of distance?

Edit: And, found it. Turning off Auto 3D panning fixed the issue. A bit annoying that different MM sounds have different presets.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,682
Paris
Hmm this is really confusing when things seems to be random problems rather than things you can fix..

Soi have that platform that lets you jumps higher ok. The way i did it is simple. Collision detection on the platform, linked to a keyframe that changes the puppet jump high setting.

So why, why in god's heaven would there be this weird thing where my 6 meters jump works when i'm waiting like 1 seconds on the platform, but if i jump directly when i land on it, it's half a jump or something.. The keyframe is not progressive, it doesn't have a slow start or anything..
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
Love the version of Geometry Wars. Look at it almost daily to see if there are any updates. Plays so well.
:D Thanks for the good review. I hope to get 1.05 out today/tomorrow, got fairly sidetracked away from the main new feature.

Would it be possible to make a game like Galaga or Galaxian that came across just as well ie don't look like they are a game made within a game?
I don't know either game particularly well, but from a quick look at YouTube I didn't see anything that would be all that difficult to translate, just a case of whether someone wants to make the effort really.

So I'm making more progress. I've blocked out six rooms with no problem. Each rooms makes for a tiny bit more on the thermometer but I think as long as I reuse elements it should be fine. I might also divide the thing into levels, although I will want to move back and forth between them and I don't know if that's possible. Can I make a door two-way?
Yeah, you can network scenes together in every way imaginable and there is a specific setting on the first tab of a door to specify two-way. Not actually done it before, I assume you need some logic to make sure the character spawns into the right location.

Hmm this is really confusing when things seems to be random problems rather than things you can fix..

Soi have that platform that lets you jumps higher ok. The way i did it is simple. Collision detection on the platform, linked to a keyframe that changes the puppet jump high setting.

So why, why in god's heaven would there be this weird thing where my 6 meters jump works when i'm waiting like 1 seconds on the platform, but if i jump directly when i land on it, it's half a jump or something.. The keyframe is not progressive, it doesn't have a slow start or anything..
Don't have much experience using keyframes for that kind of thing (I'd tend to wire directly into the jump height somehow, but can see why keyframe is probably cleaner for your case). One potential weirdness with keyframes is that the power socket isn't binary if I remember correctly, so if it gets a 0.5 signal into it, it will only partially active. Don't really see why that would affect your case though.
 
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Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,682
Paris
:D Thanks for the good review. I hope to get 1.05 out today/tomorrow, got fairly sidetracked away from the main new feature.



I don't know either game particularly well, but from a quick look at YouTube I didn't see anything that would be all that difficult to translate, just a case of whether someone wants to make the effort really.



Yeah, you can network scenes together in every way imaginable and there is a specific setting on the first tab of a door to specify two-way. Not actually done it before, I assume you need some logic to make sure the character spawns into the right location.



Don't have much experience using keyframes for that kind of thing (I'd tend to wire directly into the jump height somehow, but can see why keyframe is probably cleaner for your case). One potential weirdness with keyframes is that the power socket isn't binary if I remember correctly, so if it gets a 0.5 signal into it, it will only partially active. Don't really see why that would affect your case though.
There is a sensibility setting for the contact that can go super high, as much as more than 1000%. I tried that but it didn't change it.

By wiring the jump height directly what do you mean ? Cause i tried that but it seems it just turns the jump off completely like a power socket. it doesn't let you change the value.

I could use a trigger zone instead of the contact detection but then there are other problems with it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,762
Dreams seems to have a similar problem as Little Big Planet where jumps are heavily affected by momentum and geometry. If you press too early or if you're standing on uneven ground you only get a partial jump.

I'm using the mechanic where the ball needs to be in contact with objects or the environment using a zone that is slightly larger than the ball itself. There might be a problem with walljumping with this method.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,682
Paris
Dreams seems to have a similar problem as Little Big Planet where jumps are heavily affected by momentum and geometry. If you press too early or if you're standing on uneven ground you only get a partial jump.

I'm using the mechanic where the ball needs to be in contact with objects or the environment using a zone that is slightly larger than the ball itself. There might be a problem with walljumping with this method.
May be related to my problem to yeah...
I get that MM loves games with horrible crappy physics but they have to let people who wants stable gameplay do their thing to.
 

Samemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
330
May be related to my problem to yeah...
I get that MM loves games with horrible crappy physics but they have to let people who wants stable gameplay do their thing to.
I don't think it's fair to ascribe the label "crappy physics" just because they function less-than-optimally for what is, in the grand scheme, a narrow use-case. Would you be willing to trade-off some artistic liberty in service of your game design goals?
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
Worth remembering that if there is something about the default jumping behaviour you dislike, you can always implement your own jumping and disable the default one. You'd hope it wasn't necessary in most cases, obviously.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,682
Paris
So i tried different things, including using a zone and not contact detection on the platform. It seems the problem is not the platform, it's the way i change the jump setting.

It seems keyframe, even if you're setting the low start to zero, will be a progression, and not an instant change. That's what i understand at least. I would need to find an other way to change the setting contextually that is instant and always the same.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
SlurmMacKenzie released their new game today, Castaway:

https://indreams.me/dream/mDaqznumYyN

They've also just published a Reddit post talking about the game, presumably best read after playing and beating Castaway. Haven't started it yet because it's apparently 20+ minutes long! God. I have a Dreams backlog.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PS4Dreams/comments/bnqbpy/castaway_a_short_postmortem_about_my_latest_dream/

So i tried different things, including using a zone and not contact detection on the platform. It seems the problem is not the platform, it's the way i change the jump setting.

It seems keyframe, even if you're setting the low start to zero, will be a progression, and not an instant change. That's what i understand at least. I would need to find an other way to change the setting contextually that is instant and always the same.
That doesn't sound right to me. I just hooked up a trivial experiment and, if the Slow Power Up setting is 0.0, the a free-standing keyframe (e.g. not on a timeline) instantly applies. The only way I can make that not the case is if I don't apply a full signal to the power socket. If I send a value less than 1 into the power socket, it interpolates, but if it's 1 or more, it is instant. Is it possible that the output you're getting from the impact sensor is not 0 or 1? It looks like the first value in the fat wire that comes out of the impact sensor is the 'impact' described as the force of collision. It seems to be binary for the 'touching' impact, but presumably not the others.
 
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Skyzar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
104
This game seems like enough to finally, actually, get me to buy a PS4. I don't even need anything else. Only thing holding me back is the thought of how much time I would put into this.

I know it's still new, but I really hope they can bring it over to the next console and isn't just confined to the PS4.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
This game seems like enough to finally, actually, get me to buy a PS4. I don't even need anything else. Only thing holding me back is the thought of how much time I would put into this.

I know it's still new, but I really hope they can bring it over to the next console and isn't just confined to the PS4.
I'm certain they've said it will be on PS5 one way or another.
 

yap

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,934
Mentioned it earlier, but I'm just stunned by the level of accuracy and beauty compared to the source material.