Dreams Creator Early Access |OT| Hey Now, This Is What Dreams Are Made Of

Controller Preference

  • Only used DS4

    Votes: 39 52.0%
  • Only used Move

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • Used both, prefer DS4

    Votes: 10 13.3%
  • Used both, prefer Move

    Votes: 11 14.7%
  • Used both, like them equally

    Votes: 14 18.7%

  • Total voters
    75

Pikelet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
422
New discoverability features are a massive improvement. For those who haven't seen it yet, you can now filter by:

Following
Things You Thumbed Up
Things You Have Played
Things You Haven't Played
Things Updated Since You Played

You can now sort by:

Recommended
Trending
Newest (releases only)
Recently updated
Most Thumbed Up

The 'MM Picks' are interesting - my smallest project is featured in there which is a surprise as I honestly thought it was gone for good. My fear with this is that it may end up feeling like MM are picking winners rather than allowing the community to. Will have to see.

I'd taken a bit of a break from the game, mainly because I've been busy and obsessed over Beat Saber, but will get back on Galactic Geometry in the next couple of days. Bit worried that the window of opportunity for it to get noticed may have passed, even with the updated discoverability. I'm still a bit unsure whether the discoverability systems are in a place where the best projects are actually rising to the top.
This patch is a good start, and it's good to see an update so soon after the previous one.
  • Splitting out the 'most recently updated' with the 'most recently released' makes a lot of sense - it was disheartening to see so many people blatantly abusing the old system by quote "Updating" their game every day.
  • 'Most thumbed up' remains useless. The quality of more recent top Dreams content has massively exceeded the stuff that currently appears in this section.
  • Glad for the addition of a 'trending' sort option, but i still have no idea what factors into the 'recommended' section.
I hope that this patch addresses things somewhat, but I was disappointed in the old system's ability to reward quality updates.

I spent a lot of time updating my game (roughly the same amount of time it took to get the game released in the first place) and once i pushed the update it got around 20 extra plays over 2 days, and then nothing since. My v1.0 release got hundreds of plays over this same time frame.

it seems that at this point that you basically get one shot to get some visibility before you get buried, and so for my next project I am going to ensure that the game is 100% feature complete before i hit the publish button. If i publish a half finished game and get a small response, it doesn't seem to matter how good the updates are because the door seems to close behind you.

Basically what I'm saying is that the early-access model of Dreams development doesn't seem to work well at all in the Early Access version of Dreams :P
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,843
This patch is a good start, and it's good to see an update so soon after the previous one.
  • Splitting out the 'most recently updated' with the 'most recently released' makes a lot of sense - it was disheartening to see so many people blatantly abusing the old system by quote "Updating" their game every day.
  • 'Most thumbed up' remains useless. The quality of more recent top Dreams content has massively exceeded the stuff that currently appears in this section.
  • Glad for the addition of a 'trending' sort option, but i still have no idea what factors into the 'recommended' section.
I hope that this patch addresses things somewhat, but I was disappointed in the old system's ability to reward quality updates.

I spent a lot of time updating my game (roughly the same amount of time it took to get the game released in the first place) and once i pushed the update it got around 20 extra plays over 2 days, and then nothing since. My v1.0 release got hundreds of plays over this same time frame.

it seems that at this point that you basically get one shot to get some visibility before you get buried, and so for my next project I am going to ensure that the game is 100% feature complete before i hit the publish button. If i publish a half finished game and get a small response, it doesn't seem to matter how good the updates are because the door seems to close behind you.

Basically what I'm saying is that the early-access model of Dreams development doesn't seem to work well at all in the Early Access version of Dreams :P
While it definitely isn't sensible to release something that is very unfinished, I think it's broader than Dreams not really supporting early access very well, it's simply that the game doesn't have any path right now for the highest quality content to gain attention over the long term. Of course, thanks to the Most Thumbed Up sorting, the oldest titles are forever featured, but nothing new will ever gain those heights. If someone comes new to Dreams, there isn't really a way right now to see the best content, and that just seems weird. The MM Picks will obviously serve that purpose to a degree, but it just doesn't seem great for a manual selection to do that for all sorts of reasons.

The Most Thumbed Up category is the thing that needs attention really. This category is clearly intended to be an easy way to find the 'best' content, and doing it purely on likes over any time period is clearly nonsensical. An easy step forward would be for it to sort Most Thumbed Up Per Unique Player (so long as it ignores dreams with fewer than 100 players or 100 likes).
 
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Oct 26, 2017
1,943
While it definitely isn't sensible to release something that is very unfinished, I think it's broader than Dreams not really supporting early access very well, it's simply that the game doesn't have any path right now for the highest quality content to gain attention over the long term. Of course, thanks to the Most Thumbed Up sorting, the oldest titles are forever featured, but nothing new will ever gain those heights. If someone comes new to Dreams, there isn't really a way right now to see the best content, and that just seems weird. The MM Picks will obviously serve that purpose to a degree, but it just doesn't seem great for a manual selection to do that for all sorts of reasons.

The Most Thumbed Up category is the thing that needs attention really. This category is clearly intended to be an easy way to find the 'best' content, and doing it purely on likes over any time period is clearly nonsensical. An easy step forward would be for it to sort Most Thumbed Up Per Unique Player (so long as it ignores dreams with fewer than 100 players or 100 likes).
Isn't that what Trending should be? If something is liked by many of the few who tried it, it should be exposed more.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,843
Isn't that what Trending should be? If something is liked by many of the few who tried it, it should be exposed more.
Not really, no. Trending is heavily biased towards recency, which is fine, it's a good place to look for the best new stuff. My concern is that right now there's nowhere to really look for Best Stuff, as it were. Trending doesn't do that, Recommended doesn't do that, and Most Thumbed Up certainly doesn't do that.
 

Skies

Member
Oct 25, 2017
373
Over the E3 week I was able to finish up a project I have been working on for the last three weeks. It is a collaboration with a fellow dreamer that I am pretty proud of! This Dream is called The Echochamber. The best way I can think to describe it is Portal, but with echolocation.

Walkthrough:


Description:

This project is a collaboration between OscillatorSlave (PSN) and I over a period of three weeks.
  • Features over 20 trials (eight different variances)
    • I cut the walkthrough short so no surprises were ruined. :p
  • Scoreboard
  • Echogarden
  • Prologue to Project Glimpse
check it out here:
https://indreams.me/dream/mbLoEFAPFXi
 

Florin4k4

Member
Mar 18, 2019
230
Over the E3 week I was able to finish up a project I have been working on for the last three weeks. It is a collaboration with a fellow dreamer that I am pretty proud of! This Dream is called The Echochamber. The best way I can think to describe it is Portal, but with echolocation.

Walkthrough:


Description:
Very nice. Holy shit at that spider.
This Would be an amazing vr game
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,740
Over the E3 week I was able to finish up a project I have been working on for the last three weeks. It is a collaboration with a fellow dreamer that I am pretty proud of! This Dream is called The Echochamber. The best way I can think to describe it is Portal, but with echolocation.

Walkthrough:


Description:
This is such a good idea for a game, ur a genius
 

Samemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
368
Not really, no. Trending is heavily biased towards recency, which is fine, it's a good place to look for the best new stuff. My concern is that right now there's nowhere to really look for Best Stuff, as it were. Trending doesn't do that, Recommended doesn't do that, and Most Thumbed Up certainly doesn't do that.
They should make a weekly challenge to build Best of Dreams collections :P
 

DiceHands

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,914
I havent touched my game in about a week and feel really guilty. I got side tracked with E3 and playing other stuff. I have to get back to it this weekend!
 

Skies

Member
Oct 25, 2017
373
This is such a good idea for a game, ur a genius
Thank you!

Honestly though I was just messing around with logic pieces. I attached a wireless transmitter to my puppet's analog command, and a reciever to the glow slider of a sculpture. I possessed my puppet and this billie Jean effect happened. I was walking and the sculpture was lighting up. How cool I thought!

Flash froward to now, and most everything in The Echochamber was created or animated to solve a gameplay-related problem. Like what is the player doing with this logic (Echolocation). What sound can you make that isn't annoying upon repetition and provides visual feedback for the player (clap). How do you introduce that to the player (giant hands clap for you 😂).

That type of development compounded into what you see now. So it isn't something I just thought of as a whole or even could have pictured a month ago. Instead, The EchoChamber took on a life of its own.
 
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Birdie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,708
So I just purchased this on a whim and I see that Early Access has a limit to how many people can get in?

Uh I didn't miss it did I.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,943
If you bought it you're in.

I did a lot of work on my hero model. I fixed a couple of issues on the base body and then remixed it to start adding equipment. I'm almost done already, just need to do the hard parts. Adding a cape will be tricky, because the paint strokes just don't work right. They keep lagging behind what they're attached to, and the strokes themselves animate separately. So I think I'll just make a physical one with hinges and several sections.
 
OP
OP
Dead Prince

Dead Prince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,725
thats a good idea.

i might mess around.

but first. i accidentally installed a ps4 preview update. i hope it won't break Drreams lol
 

Sumasshu1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
36
I’ve been making good progress on my reimagining of Puzzle Fighter. I had some control issues where input would be dropped that took quite a long time to finally track down. It’s playing a lot better now. Now it’s just needs more characters, animations, and polish. :)

I did notice since the latest update that it’s not getting plays anymore (in the last day). Battle Tops still is because it’s in the Media Molecule picks list. I wonder if this is because out of the the different filter options, the sort by last updated option is one of the last, so least likely to be used. So unless it’s already trending it’s going to be tough to get new plays. We’ll see how it goes.

 
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Skies

Member
Oct 25, 2017
373
I’ve been making good progress on my reimagining of Puzzle Fighter. I had some control issues where input would be dropped that took quite a long time to finally track down. It’s playing a lot better now. Now it’s just needs more characters, animations, and polish. :)

I did notice since the latest update that it’s not getting plays anymore (in the last day). Battle Tops still is because it’s in the Media Molecule picks list. I wonder if this is because out of the the different filter options, the sort by last updated option is one of the last, so least likely to be used. So unless it’s already trending it’s going to be tough to get new plays. We’ll see how it goes.

Looks like a fun base to build upon, I'll make sure to check it out!

Your logic for the selection screen is so cool! I would love to see a video on the logic for the actual puzzle portion.

I am not sure what to think about the changes to search. Trending is a great idea, but now the recommended section seems to have gone back to focusing on beta/established dreams which is a bummer. I'm also not even sure how trending functions. My Dream moves up then back down even though it seems to be gaining thumbs up quicker than the dreams around me.

And yeah updating your dream strictly for views is now pointless. Which is nice because it should stop people from spamming their creation, but removing that avenue is just going to led to people abusing the share function even more.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,791
Paris
This patch is a good start, and it's good to see an update so soon after the previous one.
  • Splitting out the 'most recently updated' with the 'most recently released' makes a lot of sense - it was disheartening to see so many people blatantly abusing the old system by quote "Updating" their game every day.
  • 'Most thumbed up' remains useless. The quality of more recent top Dreams content has massively exceeded the stuff that currently appears in this section.
  • Glad for the addition of a 'trending' sort option, but i still have no idea what factors into the 'recommended' section.
I hope that this patch addresses things somewhat, but I was disappointed in the old system's ability to reward quality updates.

I spent a lot of time updating my game (roughly the same amount of time it took to get the game released in the first place) and once i pushed the update it got around 20 extra plays over 2 days, and then nothing since. My v1.0 release got hundreds of plays over this same time frame.

it seems that at this point that you basically get one shot to get some visibility before you get buried, and so for my next project I am going to ensure that the game is 100% feature complete before i hit the publish button. If i publish a half finished game and get a small response, it doesn't seem to matter how good the updates are because the door seems to close behind you.

Basically what I'm saying is that the early-access model of Dreams development doesn't seem to work well at all in the Early Access version of Dreams :P
Yeah i complained about that in the past.
About the problem of adding content to your game but it's too late to have new players. Something useful to me would be to make a distinction between upgrade (fixes etc..) and... adding content,, and i mean a new scene to a dream. Adding a new scene to a dream should be seen as more important i think.

Also i got a this for my super early game wip,


But just yesterday night it became way way way better looking haha. Worked a on on the light, mood, an actual background. I'll upgrade today.

Justly, about those discoverability issues etc, i'm wondering what's the best strategy really. I want to promote the hell out of the game but if i wait to publish it that there is enough content, at least one world, or maybe the entire game ? Then if some tweet or video gets slightly viral it won't translate into any plays cause there is nothing yet. But i like the idea of promoting a dreams thing like it's not a dreams thing, like a game release, with a trailer, previews etc... and try to get exposure with it. Not sure how to time it yet.
 
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Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,843
Right now I'm not sure I'd overthink publishing strategy currently. Release it the first time it is fully realised enough that you think it's worth playing and enjoyable to play. If you look at the success of Castaway (SlurmMacKenzie's game), which was released fully finished and only updated for the sake of fixes, it's got very few plays despite its quality. Being part of the MM Picks will help it, I'm sure, and it was featured pretty heavily by the biggest Dreams YouTubers, but the actual organic discoverability it's received seems pretty minimal which is a real shame. Personally, my best project now receives less attention than the two that came before it, one of which is an MM Pick, the other of which was a Game Jam bronze winner. It's a microcosm but it illustrates the problem pretty well for me. I dare say almost all the established creators are finding the same thing: their best work is being ignored in favour of their earlier work.

The best strategy if you want to get attention right now is to release small, polished, fun, unique projects.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,791
Paris
Right now I'm not sure I'd overthink publishing strategy currently. Release it the first time it is fully realised enough that you think it's worth playing and enjoyable to play. If you look at the success of Castaway (SlurmMacKenzie's game), which was released fully finished and only updated for the sake of fixes, it's got very few plays despite its quality. Being part of the MM Picks will help it, I'm sure, and it was featured pretty heavily by the biggest Dreams YouTubers, but the actual organic discoverability it's received seems pretty minimal which is a real shame. Personally, my best project now receives less attention than the two that came before it, one of which is an MM Pick, the other of which was a Game Jam bronze winner. It's a microcosm but it illustrates the problem pretty well for me. I dare say almost all the established creators are finding the same thing: their best work is being ignored in favour of their earlier work.

The best strategy if you want to get attention right now is to release small, polished, fun, unique projects.
Yeah anyway you know, i'm pretty sure every damn artist in the world has that problem of having its best works less populated :p
But yeah now if you want to go the next step with dreams and do something that could be a non dreams game (even something small), you have to think about that.

Anyway udpate of the night's work, with terrrrible compression as usual

10% graphics thermo for now, which is a fine surprise considering the scale of the background.


It's also darker than it should be, but i'd like that sun to hit more on the side anyway i'll have to find a way? I put a small spot on the edge of the rock inth end for the sake of the dramatic effect.

That's just a tutorial level anwyay
 

Sumasshu1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
36
Looks like a fun base to build upon, I'll make sure to check it out!
Your logic for the selection screen is so cool! I would love to see a video on the logic for the actual puzzle portion.
Thanks. Yeah the puzzle portion logic is very involved. I published the core movement logic as a remixable contraption called “Grid Based Movement with Rotation”. But then expanded on all that with logic to govern the movement and rotation (preventing rotating through other blocks, moving through walls, etc). I had to do some things for thermometer reasons that from a design perspective seem weird, like pulling sounds out of the individual blocks and instead just sending a signal requesting the sound to be played. And pulling particle effects out of the blocks and have a manager literally running around playing effects when a block requests it. Some of this stuff I’d hope Media Molecule improves so it doesn’t count against the gameplay thermo as much. (If I have the same effect stored in each block in an emitter, it really shouldn’t be costing much more thermo, but it does).

Maybe sometime I’ll make a video going over the logic, or maybe I’ll make it remixable at some point and let people jump in and be overwhelmed. I don’t clean up my wiring like MM does. ;)
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,943
Okay, this is pissing me off. I'm starting to doubt the feasability of doing any complex animations. My keyframes are completely messed up. I have a timeline which begins in a standard posed keyframe, then goes through three keyframes: lifting the sword over the shoulder, halfway through the strike, and the final pose. However, this animation quickly deteriorates, and after a couple of strikes it's all messed up. When I go back into the timeline, the poses in each keyframe have changed. And when I painstakingly go through them and reset the position, when I check back on the standard pose, it has changed - both in the timeline and the standard pose of the puppet. It's as if all keyframe positions are relative to each other and keep messing up the others.

AAAAAAARGH.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,740
Okay, this is pissing me off. I'm starting to doubt the feasability of doing any complex animations. My keyframes are completely messed up. I have a timeline which begins in a standard posed keyframe, then goes through three keyframes: lifting the sword over the shoulder, halfway through the strike, and the final pose. However, this animation quickly deteriorates, and after a couple of strikes it's all messed up. When I go back into the timeline, the poses in each keyframe have changed. And when I painstakingly go through them and reset the position, when I check back on the standard pose, it has changed - both in the timeline and the standard pose of the puppet. It's as if all keyframe positions are relative to each other and keep messing up the others.

AAAAAAARGH.
are you using R2(move) to animate instead of L2(rotate)? that supposedly makes a difference. you can use R2 on the hips but anywhere else can potentially break the animations

im going to be completely honest with you and say that i don't know what makes the animation fail and what makes it work most of the time. it feels like luck. i've had entire attack animations that i've had to put in the trash because they're broken for some unidentifiable reason, even though they were made the exact same way as the rest of the animations (which work completely fine). no clue what the difference maker is with animating stuff.
 

Samemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
368
For anyone running into problems with animation, you may have to learn about IK and FK. In simple terms, you use L2 (rotations) for FK and R2 (translations) for IK. The main issue people run into usually is failure to understand IK, where you defines a bone's position, and the animated bone will always try to reach the position regardless of whatever the rest of the rig is doing. The following video isn't directly about Dreams but it's the same general principal.

 
Oct 26, 2017
1,943
For anyone running into problems with animation, you may have to learn about IK and FK. In simple terms, you use L2 (rotations) for FK and R2 (translations) for IK. The main issue people run into usually is failure to understand IK, where you defines a bone's position, and the animated bone will always try to reach the position regardless of whatever the rest of the rig is doing. The following video isn't directly about Dreams but it's the same general principal.

I know the game blends animations (like my character can still run and the upper body does the sword animation) but I didn't know it treated the buttons differently. Sometimes it can be a pain to rotate every part of the arm to where it needs to go so I just drag the hand over. I'll try only using the rotations. I used to do that on Poser and such.
 

OgTheEnigma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,240
Liverpool
Wait, what would be different?
Well, I mean something in the primary toolset to make it easier and faster than this method:




In unrelated news, I've managed to figure out how to use variables as a 24 bit array, so basically this means you can use a single variable to store 24 zeros and ones: https://indreams.me/dream/miwAUnLymPb

The current limit is 128 variables within a Dream, which isn't great for a bigger projects that may involve collecting lots of items. For example, think of Spyro the Dragon - you go to lots of different worlds to collect gems and it always remembers which ones you've collected. By using binary values, this increases the storage capability of variables for items which just need to be turned on and off.
 
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eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,022
For anyone running into problems with animation, you may have to learn about IK and FK. In simple terms, you use L2 (rotations) for FK and R2 (translations) for IK. The main issue people run into usually is failure to understand IK, where you defines a bone's position, and the animated bone will always try to reach the position regardless of whatever the rest of the rig is doing. The following video isn't directly about Dreams but it's the same general principal.

IMO though if people have to read tutorials on Inverse Kinematics to get character animations to work right then Mm have failed to make the feature approachable to all users. The traditional implementation details of 3D animation should all be abstracted the way other features are. I think the character modeling and animation tools are Dreams' biggest deficiency right now. They just aren't good enough to meet the bar they've set with the other tools.
 

Samemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
368
IMO though if people have to read tutorials on Inverse Kinematics to get character animations to work right then Mm have failed to make the feature approachable to all users. The traditional implementation details of 3D animation should all be abstracted the way other features are. I think the character modeling and animation tools are Dreams' biggest deficiency right now. They just aren't good enough to meet the bar they've set with the other tools.
Are you judging the approachability of the tools from the perspective of someone who's gone through Dreams' tutorials or someone coming in with no knowledge of Dreams whatsoever? I don't agree that there's this significant difference in ease of use between the various toolsets. Rather, I think it's just a difference of the animation tools being barely touched on in Mm's provided tutorials, especially character animation which has its own set of idiosyncrasies.
 

burgervan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
561
I'm getting very close to finishing up Cubric and man, this game is going to be the death of me. I realize that every type of game is going to present it's own unique problems, but the entire premise of the game is two physics based objects (the puppet and the cubes) interacting with precision while both are moving. I feel like dreams isn't built for precision in general so it's been a nightmare of bugs since day one, but it's turned out pretty nicely overall. Should be out early this week.

Looking forward to working on something less stressful.
 

neojmr

Member
Jun 3, 2018
31
you guys should check out the game called"Made in souls",a very well made soul-like game,and it only gets 53likes,I feel bad for the author...
 
Oct 27, 2017
212
I'm getting very close to finishing up Cubric and man, this game is going to be the death of me. I realize that every type of game is going to present it's own unique problems, but the entire premise of the game is two physics based objects (the puppet and the cubes) interacting with precision while both are moving. I feel like dreams isn't built for precision in general so it's been a nightmare of bugs since day one, but it's turned out pretty nicely overall. Should be out early this week.

Looking forward to working on something less stressful.
Yeah I'm making a mini golf game and having a ball that's bouncy move at high speed along a surface creates all kinds of problems. The ground has to be as uniform as possible since it'll get caught on even the slightest seam between sclupts, and I had to turn friction way down because it would randomly catch on the surface and go flying.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,052
Yeah I'm making a mini golf game and having a ball that's bouncy move at high speed along a surface creates all kinds of problems. The ground has to be as uniform as possible since it'll get caught on even the slightest seam between sclupts, and I had to turn friction way down because it would randomly catch on the surface and go flying.
The trick to that in my opinion would be to make all the visual geometry, anything visual non collidable, and then create simple invisible collidable boxes in place of those.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,253
IMO though if people have to read tutorials on Inverse Kinematics to get character animations to work right then Mm have failed to make the feature approachable to all users. The traditional implementation details of 3D animation should all be abstracted the way other features are. I think the character modeling and animation tools are Dreams' biggest deficiency right now. They just aren't good enough to meet the bar they've set with the other tools.
they mentioned previously that is an area they have some significant changes coming to. Eg an improved timeline and better control around keyframes.

Also dave swatpaz posted episode 2 of his puppet show on youtube

 

hanmik

Editor/Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
891
has anyone made a good old Point & Click adventure yet? like the old LucasArt games?