Easy Allies |OT2| Love & Reset

Murasaki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
775
I do hope that the Community Showcase returns to its original format. Much better to have the submissions grouped by category so that people can find their own and others' work with greater ease. I think that Damiani & Ian did a great job hosting this first show of the Milo era.
 

Fantomas

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,898
Small cameo from Huber, Don and Brad at the beginning of noclip's E3 documentary:

I just noticed that Brandon is in the whole Patron credit shot to the left of the Patron list (although he is tough to see for most of it).
Yeah, I was just watching this today and noticed these haha. Jones was just hanging out talking to people on the show floor.
Watching this no clip E3 documentary and Danny is all about rating the carpets!!! Is this why we didnt get our annual Easy update carpet raiting episode?
I was thinking the same thing lol at least someone was out there covering the important topics! :P
 

DjDeathCool

Member
Oct 28, 2017
501
Bismarck, ND
I'd love to see a Spoiler Mode between Brad, Domiani and maybe Kyle (or someone who would be interested in hearing about the story but will never play the game) for Shadowbringers. I'm sure ERA is sick of hearing about it but I feel like the story in that game deserves to be talked about and I think that'd be an interesting dynamic.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
Epic supports regional pricing in more places at this point so that's not even a real advantage for Steam. And considering Shenmue 3's existence is a miracle, and the original KS never actually promised Steam keys, you're totally right the anger is an absurd overreaction. In general I think Brad was right, in that the consistent anger towards the EGS comes from a tiny minority who have so far had basically zero impact on actual game sales, ala the Modern Warfare 2 boycott group.
Their messaging through Kickstarter did promise Steam keys on multiple occasions though. A year ago their email stated (the mail is from June 28th 2018, Project Update #84):
System Requirements for PC Version
Additional Info: Requires Steam Client to activate.

But there are more instances of this, for example specifically stating Steam in the poll to choose the version.

Again, I don't really have a horse in the race as I always wanted the PS4 version, but it was very clear from the beginning they wanted to release this game on Steam and it was mentioned multiple times during the Kickstarter. But sure, the Kickstarter itself only seems to have mentioned "PC". I completely understand why so many people are disappointed and feel cheated. I am almost convinced the Kickstarter would have done worse if it states EGS (which wasn't possible when it launched, but you know what I mean). I also completely understand why a lot of people don't care where it's sold as long as they can play the game.

I myself would not back a PC game if it doesn't come to Steam as I prefer to own my games on Steam (or GOG) as I prefer to have my games in 1 or 2 places only (on PC). I already own a PS4, Xbox One and Switch, so it's tough enough to keep track on which game I own where without it being splintered on PC as well.

I am also not convinced that there aren't more people who don't want EGS compared to people complaining about MW2. MW2 were just fans of the MW series complaining but they still wanted to play the game. This are people who don't want to use EGS (for a host of reasons, from not liking Epic/Fortnite to only wanting to use one service to hating the way Epic bullies it's way onto the scene with exclusives or just not liking store exclusives on PC in general, ...). I am not so convinced Shenmue 3 will sell as well on PC as it did on Steam. It depends on how many of the Kickstarter people get a refund or change to PS4. I do think it's clear that you get less sales on EGS compared to steam as their are less users on EGS compared to Steam. So my guess is that Shenmue 3 PC sales will predominantly come from Kickstarter until it comes to Steam.

Ys.net (probably mostly Deep Silver) just made the decision of getting money now instead of through sales because Shenmue 3 probably won't break even to begin with (it wasn't the case with Shenmue 1 and 2 anyway, my guess would be that it's the same with Shenmue 3).
 
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Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
Epic supports regional pricing in more places at this point so that's not even a real advantage for Steam. And considering Shenmue 3's existence is a miracle, and the original KS never actually promised Steam keys, you're totally right the anger is an absurd overreaction. In general I think Brad was right, in that the consistent anger towards the EGS comes from a tiny minority who have so far had basically zero impact on actual game sales, ala the Modern Warfare 2 boycott group.
They did build the expectation of steam keys several times(it was part of their surveys etc). The existence of shenmue 3 isn't a miracle at all it's a result of the success of its kickstarter which again is a result of the enormous backer support it got. Without that no one would have looked at shenmue for additional funding.

So shafting your backers who are your most diehard supporters in favor of additional money feels hugely disrespectful/ungrateful. Dunno other people may feel differently but I think if you do a kickstarter your first duty of satisfication is to your backers not to the parties that you get additional money from cause they want to buy in on something that is hot right now because of the enormous backer support. That is not to say don't do additional deals just don't do them at the cost of what your backers would want or at the very least be upfront and communicate about it.

This whole thing is 100% on Ysnet/the devs.
 

Hasney

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,134
This whole thing is 100% on Ysnet/the devs.
Well, Deep Silver at the very leat. Honestly not sure how much say YsNet had, other than willing to be a supportive partner to their publisher. I know all the messaging has said it was in collaboration in talks with YsNet, but most publishing deals would have let Deep Silver release it wherever they like with developer input.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
Well, Deep Silver at the very leat. Honestly not sure how much say YsNet had, other than willing to be a supportive partner to their publisher. I know all the messaging has said it was in collaboration in talks with YsNet, but most publishing deals would have let Deep Silver release it wherever they like with developer input.
Ysnet was partnering with deep silver out of their own accord though. That this happened is just an example that they did not negotiate properly the terms of their partnership to protect their backers from negative repercussions.
You don't get to absolve yourself from responsibility that way.
 
Oct 26, 2017
456
Well, Deep Silver at the very leat. Honestly not sure how much say YsNet had, other than willing to be a supportive partner to their publisher. I know all the messaging has said it was in collaboration in talks with YsNet, but most publishing deals would have let Deep Silver release it wherever they like with developer input.
No one forced YsNet to partner with Deep Silver. They don't even own the IP. Even if they decided against this decision to go with EGS they relinquished their power by their own previous decisions. Should've put on a contract with this or choose a better publisher partner.

Edit: And Holundrian ninja'd ME. Oh well
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
I think Shenmue 3 needs all the money it can get if the old stories of Shenmue 1 and 2 are to believed and that's probably why they decided on an extra publisher. Those games were moneysinks that didn't do well for SEGA even though they were critically acclaimed and people seemed to love them (I never played the originals, I really should play the remasters). They were just too expensive to make and my guess is that it's the same with this one.

I agree that it's not a good look for a Kickstarted project to search for a publisher if it causes some backers to feel screwed (I wouldn't be happy with it if I wanted the game on PC and I am still not too happy with it even though it doesn't matter for me), but I do understand why they did it.
They just want to create a game that you can't create with the money they have. I believe the rumours of the development budget for Shenmue 1 are 70 million (in 1999). I don't believe they have that much this time around.

Keep in mind that this game needed to be crowdfunded because no publisher wanted to burn their fingers on it for years.
 
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Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,580
If the money they received from Epic actually covers the development of Shenmue 4 then it’s worth it.

If not then I don’t know what they’re going to do. I don’t think the game will be a huge success in sales. They can try Kickstarter again but that all depends on the reception of 3, plus they’ve broken the trust of the community, so who knows if they can reach their goal.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
I think Shenmue 3 needs all the money it can get if the old stories of Shenmue 1 and 2 are to believed and that's probably why they decided on an extra publisher. Those games were moneysinks that didn't do well for SEGA even though they were critically acclaimed and people seemed to love them (I never played the originals, I really should play the remasters). They were just too expensive to make and my guess is that it's the same with this one.

I agree that it's not a good look for a Kickstarted project to search for a publisher if it causes some backers to feel screwed, but I do understand why they did it.
They just want to create a game that you can't create with the money they have.
That's still their own fault. Don't go to kickstarter if from the outset your ambitions dwarf any promises you make on kickstarter. That's just being incredibly dishonest given that you do have to set a baseline of minimum funding.

Next time they can just find money on his own again, he can make all the deals he wants if he gets them, he just shouldn't expect for people to throw him 6 million in advance on goodwill again.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
That's still their own fault. Don't go to kickstarter if from the outset your ambitions dwarf any promises you make on kickstarter. That's just being incredibly dishonest given that you do have to set a baseline of minimum funding.

Next time they can just find money on his own again, he can make all the deals he wants if he gets them, he just shouldn't expect for people to throw him 6 million in advance on goodwill again.
I agree, but they probably did it because people were asking for Shenmue 3 for years and they wanted to create that game for years, but no publisher wanted to burn their hands on it. My guess is that they felt crowdfunding was the only way to get it made (maybe even to get the attention of possible publishers, who knows what Sony's role is in all of this).

I also don't think there will be a next time in the near future as it will probably not sell enough to make money again. Especially since their crowdfunding will not do as well after this whole thing. I just don't think publishers are willing to fund that whole game for themselves. My guess is that they used Kickstarter to show publishers how many people want the game, not for the money itself. There is no way a game like this can be made with 6 million in this day and age.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
I agree, but they probably did it because people were asking for Shenmue 3 for years and they wanted to create that game for years, but no publisher wanted to burn their hands on it. My guess is that they felt crowdfunding was the only way to get it made (maybe even to get the attention of possible publishers, who knows what Sony's role is in all of this).
I think we're agreeing essentially. Like it's understandable why they did it, the same way it's understandable why businesses fuck over their employees if they have no protections and if they can to raise shareholder value by doing it. I just don't think that's a good attitude to take towards your most diehard supporters, nor do I find it morally sound. If you actually go into a kickstarter project but you know you can't actually make the thing to be satisfactory unless you get even more outside funding that will come to the detriment of your backers your model of funding is seriously flawed.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
I think we're agreeing essentially. Like it's understandable why they did it, the same way it's understandable why businesses fuck over their employees if they have no protections and if they can to raise shareholder value by doing it. I just don't think that's a good attitude to take towards your most diehard supporters, nor do I find it morally sound. If you actually go into a kickstarter project but you know you can't actually make the thing to be satisfactory unless you get even more outside funding that will come to the detriment of your backers your model of funding is seriously flawed.
We do agree and it's an other nail in the coffin of Kickstarted videogames (I recently still backed the skatebird game, who knows if EGS buys them as well, it will be a refund for me if that happens). I just think they saw a way to finally create the game they wanted to create for so many years and they took it. I honestly think it was done out of passion for Shenmue, not to screw people over.

Edit:
That reminds me to take a screenshot from the SkateBIRD page as it clearly states Steam.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,226
If the money they received from Epic actually covers the development of Shenmue 4 then it’s worth it.

If not then I don’t know what they’re going to do. I don’t think the game will be a huge success in sales. They can try Kickstarter again but that all depends on the reception of 3, plus they’ve broken the trust of the community, so who knows if they can reach their goal.
There was a quote from a Paradox dev on Gamepass that cautioned devs against thinking for the short term (aka millions of dollars now) and asking instead where they'd be in five or ten years as far as sustainability and profitability is concerned.

I think the same applies to EGS, which I honestly at this time, cannot see as a viable storefront that exists for a substantial amount of time. So I suppose it'll be interesting to see the trade off between immediate money and angering your fanbase (if at all) for certain devs if/when EGS steps out of the picture.

I plan on refunding Shenmue 3, and not Kickstarting anymore future projects, and I'm sure I'm in the minority on that but the whole thing is so incredibly sleezy in an industry filled with sleezy things.

I hope the fans get a good game and Shenmue 4.
 

RugoUniverse

Member
May 15, 2018
579
Scotland
I'd love to see a Spoiler Mode between Brad, Domiani and maybe Kyle (or someone who would be interested in hearing about the story but will never play the game) for Shadowbringers. I'm sure ERA is sick of hearing about it but I feel like the story in that game deserves to be talked about and I think that'd be an interesting dynamic.
Thread is drowning in Epic talk but I would also like this. I haven't even gotten to Shadowbringers yet but Kyle's perspective on storytelling is always interesting.

Also hoping we get a Spider-Man Spoiler Mode.
 

Hasney

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,134
Thread is drowning in Epic talk but I would also like this. I haven't even gotten to Shadowbringers yet but Kyle's perspective on storytelling is always interesting.

Also hoping we get a Spider-Man Spoiler Mode.
Jones said they were aiming to do Stranger Things 3 and Spider-Man this month.

Really hoping we do get some game talk soon though since I won't be watching either of those in the near future. Going to finish the final chapter of Judgnment tonight and I believe it's RGG Studios best told story.
 

RugoUniverse

Member
May 15, 2018
579
Scotland
Jones said they were aiming to do Stranger Things 3 and Spider-Man this month.

Really hoping we do get some game talk soon though since I won't be watching either of those in the near future. Going to finish the final chapterof Judgnment tonight and I believe it's RGG Studios best told story.
Oh yeah for sure, and it'll hold to August for Huber and Brad to finish it.
 

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,438
My main intake of EZA is through the podcasts so I don't get to experience much Don, but he was great in the last Frame Trap. He and Ian had some good chemistry with one another.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,226
Also, the whole appeal to "poor devs" with regards to EGS in the last podcast is so tiresome. That entire discussion is so whack, weirdly pro business and completely ignoring the whole consumers rights aspect of it all. Am I supposed to feel bad that a business that did a shady business deal might suffer some consequences? Because I don't, and I'm not sure why I would.
 

Mario Bilo

Member
Jan 7, 2018
637
Also, the whole appeal to "poor devs" with regards to EGS in the last podcast is so tiresome. That entire discussion is so whack, weirdly pro business and completely ignoring the whole consumers rights aspect of it all. Am I supposed to feel bad that a business that did a shady business deal might suffer some consequences? Because I don't, and I'm not sure why I would.
I mean are they supposed to feel bad because you don't want to click on an extra icon on your desktop?
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
I suppose this is the level of response one would expect with how poorly EZA handled the whole EGS discussion.
I don't think they handled it poorly at all. I agree with most of what you have said about this and I do agree that it was anti-consumer to change to EGS (and I wouldn't be happy with it either if I pledged for a PC copy of Shenmue III), but EZA not agreeing with you (the same as some people here) doesn't mean they handled it poorly. It means they have a different opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, it's impossible that everybody agrees with your opinion on any given moment. That doesn't mean their opinion is "wrong", it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong either. It just means that everyone doesn't agree on everything.

Luckily not everyone in the world has the same opinions. It would be a very boring world if that was the case.

Some people genuinely don't care that they have to get the game at a different storefront, others (like me) would care and wouldn't be happy with it.
But I do understand how some people don't care at all and they are happy as long as they get the game on the device they pledged it for (PC in this case). Others want it specifically on Steam (for a multitude of reasons which are all valid).

The main point is that they legally didn't do anything wrong (you can check Hoeg's video on the matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcQXOQ1AmE). It's just Kickstarter which doesn't care about the people who pledge (I knew that before this whole thing as one asshole still hasn't given me (and some others) something I pledged for 3 years ago and I reported it to Kickstarter and they don't do anything at all).
 
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Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,226
I don't think they handled it poorly at all. I agree with most of what you have said about this and I do agree that it was anti-consumer to change to EGS (and I wouldn't be happy with it either if I pledged for a PC copy of Shenmue III), but EZA not agreeing with you (the same as some people here) doesn't mean they handled it poorly. It means they have a different opinion.

Luckily not everyone in the world has the same opinions. It would be a very boring world if that was the case.
It was handlred poorly because one of the common pushbacks to the whole discussion was an extremely basic, almost nonsensical take on the situation that ignored a variety of factors and none of the Allies really pushed back on it in any meaningful way (referring to Ian's take here). Which results in the entire discourse moving back to an incredibly basic level, hence a post like above where a person goes "duh just click on a different launcher."

I have multiple PC launchers installed and have several games across those launchers. Not every EGS issue can be simplified to a game being tied to another launcher as the sole cause of concern.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is companies doing more sleezy shit on top of the plethora of things they've already been doing, and in that context, yes, EGS/pubs/devs got off fairly lightly on the podcast.
 
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MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
It was handeled poorly because one of the common pushbacks to the whole discussion was an extremely basic, almost nonsensical take on the situation that ignored a variety of factors and none of the Allies really pushed back on it in any meaningful way (referring to Ian's take here). Which results in the entire discourse moving back to an incredibly basic level, hence a post like above where a person goes "duh just click on a different launcher."

I have multiple PC launchers installed and have several games across those launchers. Not every EGS issue can be simplified to a game being tied to another launcher as the sole cause of concern.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is companies doing more sleezy shit on top of the plethora of things they've already been doing, and in that context, yes, EGS/pubs/devs got off fairly lightly on the podcast.
That's because this is clearly an important matter to you, but for some people it isn't. They just play it on a different launcher and they don't care.
You can only expect them to give their opinion on the matter. If Ian's opinion is that he doesn't care which button he pushes for a game to start, he can state that.

And again, they did do a sleezy thing, but nothing illegal. There is not much anyone can do about this as long as Kickstarter doesn't change their rules about this (my dad has a similar thing with some biking gear he backed). Hoeg"s video goes clearly into this and while I still think they are assholes for doing this and I will think twice before backing anything from Ys.net, they didn't do anything wrong (legally). Ultimately, some people care a lot about that stuff, others don't.

They just cost themselves a lot of backers for future games and have more money to spend on the game at this moment.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,226
That's because this is clearly an important matter to you, but for some people it isn't. They just play it on a different launcher and they don't care.
You can only expect them to give their opinion on the matter. If Ian's opinion is that he doesn't care which button he pushes for a game to start, he can state that.

And again, they did do a sleezy thing, but nothing illegal. There is not much anyone can do about this as long as Kickstarter doesn't change their rules about this (my dad has a similar thing with some biking gear he backed). Hoeg"s video goes clearly into this and while I still think they are assholes for doing this and I will think twice before backing anything from Ys.net, they didn't do anything wrong (legally). Ultimately, some people care a lot about that stuff, others don't.

They just cost themselves a lot of backers for future games and have more money to spend on the game at this moment.
Right, I agree with you and don't necessarily even believe that the Allies have to care about this issue on a personal level. If you play on consoles or the Switch, it's a non factor really. But on a podcast, where you are discussing certain issues, aimed at a larger audience, I don't think a level of analysis which rests merely rests on personal preference flies in all situations.

And I get it, people may disagree with me on that last bit. And we'll just have to agree to disagree in that instance. It came off as incredibly hand wavy to me on the podcast, and just results in having to deal with annoyingly basic retorts like "why not click another launcher" when the issues are far deeper.
 

PepperedHam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
267
Pennsylvania
Also, the whole appeal to "poor devs" with regards to EGS in the last podcast is so tiresome. That entire discussion is so whack, weirdly pro business and completely ignoring the whole consumers rights aspect of it all. Am I supposed to feel bad that a business that did a shady business deal might suffer some consequences? Because I don't, and I'm not sure why I would.
I do believe in these scenarios the publisher =/= the developer. Deep Silver are the ones who keep getting into bed with EGS and there is precedent here for all of their games going the way of EGS exclusivity. It sucks that Ys decided to sign with Deep Silver but it's a game that's so hamstrung by budget the way it is even with its massive Kickstarter that I don't blame them for going for that route, and it was a deal signed before this entire thing existed. So yeah, I do kind of get feeling bad for those actually doing the dev work on Shenmue 3 because this could potentially have cost them if Epic didn't step in and front the refunds. It's an unfortunate situation for a game that needs the help to be in.

Its possible to step back and look at the whole thing and feel differently for every party involved in this. The situation blows, frankly, but I don't think it's wildly questionable to feel something for developers on a case by case basis here.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
Ian and Don Hit The B3ach!
Yeah, I am really looking forward to that as well (or something similar). I loved both songs a lot (and the videos as well). The part of "literally hitting the beach" is genius and made me laugh a lot.

Really looking forward to watching Easy Livin live this year as I have a couple of weeks of a bit later compared to usual and I believe EZA is a bit earlier, so I could watch it live this time, but a friend invited me to BBQ/grill the 27th, so I am conflicted what I'm going to do.

I guess I can still watch it later, but I was really looking forward watching it live this time around (not the full 50 hours, but a lot of it). Oh well, I still have a couple of weeks to make up my mind I guess.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
781
Mass
Hearing Ian talk about Weird Fiction makes me wish I didn't wimp out of recommending Web Comics during my Podcast Halftime. I think Ian might have liked Kill 6 Billion Demons.