Easy Allies |OT2| Love & Reset

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
900
Their messaging through Kickstarter did promise Steam keys on multiple occasions though. A year ago their email stated (the mail is from June 28th 2018, Project Update #84):
System Requirements for PC Version
Additional Info: Requires Steam Client to activate.
Sure, THREE YEARS after the Kickstarter. And circumstances change. The game has also been delayed multiple times. If you don't trust a dev to choose what's best for the project, don't back games. I don't begrudge any developer for reacting to changes in the market landscape.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
Sure, THREE YEARS after the Kickstarter. And circumstances change. The game has also been delayed multiple times. If you don't trust a dev to choose what's best for the project, don't back games. I don't begrudge any developer for reacting to changes in the market landscape.
That wasn't the first time they clearly stated Steam in their emails. I just searched for an instance that I could quickly find, but they stated that multiple times including in the poll for the rewards. But while I don't think it's a consumer-friendly thing to do and I completely understand why some people are pissed off about this, I do understand the reasoning from a dev standpoint as well (especially a dev were money is clearly a problem).

I just don't think it will help them when they try to get their next game funded. They just shot themselves in the foot with this whole thing (at least as far as some Shenmue fans are concerned). Some people won't care, but others will and I honestly think they can use every fan they can get to get Shenmue 4 - 6 released. There is a reason why it took so long to find a way to create Shenmue 3. Publishers are worried that Shenmue games don't make any money and alienating some of your fans (it doesn't matter if you agree with why that is or not) isn't going to help you in the long run.

This type of publicity isn't a good thing for the game nor the studio. The worst thing is that Deep Silver probably isn't going to have any negatives from this whole thing while it most likely has been their decision.

Also, the problem isn't that they went with Epic. There would be complaints if a game people are looking forward to is going with Epic, but it would be fine if it wasn't announced on anything else beforehand. Its the changes to the platform after the fact that makes most people pissed off. Being able to pre-order a game on a store (or kickstart a game in this specific case) and that this game either got cancelled on the specific storefront they ordered it from or the storefront got changed after people got charged is what makes them irritated by this.

It probably wouldn't have been a big problem if money didn't change hands before this decision was made. It would just have less backers/buyers, but I think the complaints would have been way less and the negative look/impact on Ys.net would have been minimal as well.

So yes, I understand it from a dev standpoint (and even a publishers standpoint), but I think it's a dumb move after what happened with (and the reaction to) other games doing the same thing. They just shot Ryo Hazuki in the foot with this whole thing and it just made it less probable that we will see the rest of the story (after Shenmue 3) because of this move. I can only see it happening in the near future if it sells really well (and even then). Deep Silver probably killed the franchise again for an other 15 - 20 years and the game is not even out yet.

Edit:
Also my apologies for weird language or structure in this post.
I am way too tired to type these kinds of reactions in a non-native language (it's 2:40 am over here, so I'm going to get some sleep). I have tried to fix as much of it as possible, but there probably still will be some weird sentences in there. I hope it's clear enough to understand what I am saying.
 
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Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
Sure, THREE YEARS after the Kickstarter. And circumstances change. The game has also been delayed multiple times. If you don't trust a dev to choose what's best for the project, don't back games. I don't begrudge any developer for reacting to changes in the market landscape.
Taking a deal at the detriment of your backers is not the same as reacting to market changes. That's ungrateful and selfish. Dunno what the statement "if you don't trust a dev" is about. Clearly people trusted Suzuki and that trust has been broken now for some. Hence the clearly understandable backlash. Dunno why that's a hard concept to grasp. These people won't indeed trust Suzuki again and will likely as you say not back the games in the future.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
900
Taking a deal at the detriment of your backers is not the same as reacting to market changes.
I would argue that the change does not rise to the level of a "detriment". And on balance with ensuring the health and quality of the game, these deals are probably more often boons to the backers irrespective of their negative reactions. It could easily be the difference between getting Shenmue 4 and not getting Shenmue 4.
 

Hasney

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,134
I would argue that the change does not rise to the level of a "detriment". And on balance with ensuring the health and quality of the game, these deals are probably more often boons to the backers irrespective of their negative reactions. It could easily be the difference between getting Shenmue 4 and not getting Shenmue 4.
Missing even one feature is a detriment. And they really shouldn't be only offering full refunds, but partial refunds to physical backers that went with a physical PC version since that version is now a coaster.

I don't mind about all this and I'm not angry, let publishers and devs take the money, but EGS has been such a bad experience for me that I'm not using it until they make large changes. But I have a PS4 and wouldn't mind having all 3 Shenmue platinums, so I just changed my version. If I didn't have a PS4, I would have just taken the refund.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
I would argue that the change does not rise to the level of a "detriment". And on balance with ensuring the health and quality of the game, these deals are probably more often boons to the backers irrespective of their negative reactions. It could easily be the difference between getting Shenmue 4 and not getting Shenmue 4.
I get you, but it's not for you to decide what other people do or do not find a "detriment".
I understand that you don't see it as a problem, and I get why, but for some people it is. They have pledged for Shenmue 3 just as anybody else, so they are free to expect to get what they have pledged for.

Now the whole DLC controversy is something different. I don't think they should add a season pass with Shenmue 3 for backers. Nobody pledged for that, so we shouldn't get it. I do believe pre-order DLC should be added to copies of the backers as I do believe we "pre-ordered" it as well (even before pre-orders were possible).

But I'm not angry either as I will hopefully get my PS4 digital copy as promised (unless they screw something else up). But like I said, I do think the pre-order DLC should probably be included for people who pledged/paid for the game to be made 4 years ago. I am personally fine with anything else as far as my pledge goes. But I would probably feel betrayed as well if I did pledge for the PC version and would probably ask for a refund if that was the case.

Also, you can count on it that we won't get Shenmue 4 - 6 in the near future. They will be dropped by Deep Silver like a hot potato once Shenmue 3 has been released. These reactions are not only the fault of the backers, but they are the fault of the publisher and dev's actions as well. They weren't the first game to switch to EGS and there had been backlash before with kickstarted games, so they should have known it would go this way. Especially with a highly backed game like this one.

I'm more or less convinced you can count Shenmue as a dead series again after Senmue 3 releases. It started so well, but it's probably killed by Deep Silver's greed.
 
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Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
I would argue that the change does not rise to the level of a "detriment". And on balance with ensuring the health and quality of the game, these deals are probably more often boons to the backers irrespective of their negative reactions. It could easily be the difference between getting Shenmue 4 and not getting Shenmue 4.
I mean others already answered you with essentially what I would say.
But I hope you realize there isn't really much to argue given that the detriment objectively occurred for some backers. Something was undeniably taken away and absolutely nothing concrete was communicated to the backers that would be an appropriate compensation for what was lost.

Hence the whole line of argument of how it benefited the health of the game is moot. That is just not how I think you should run a kickstarter where it's somehow acceptable to leave your backers in the dark just because you think you "know" better especially when it will just look like you sold out your backers. What the right thing to do is, is communicate with the community that made it all possible in the first place. Because that is how you retain/build trust. What Ysnet did clearly violates that and nobody should be surprised at the dismay and future decrease of support due these actions.

It doesn't help that a lot of the best kickstarters with a fraction of this budget just seem to understand the value of their community and have no problem with communicating with their backers and see no need to play them for fools and in the end somehow still overdeliver on their initial promises.
 

Dineren

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,322
The preorder thing is just bizarre. I am a higher tier backer and while the season pass would have been nice (and I think this is the only kickstarter I've backed that didn't include content like that at higher tiers) I can understand why it wouldn't be included. On the other hand the preorder content is not substantial at all and not giving it to backers is just a terrible look.

You can argue semantics all you want about whether or not a kickstarter is a preorder, but after all the EGS drama, including it was an easy win and they still somehow blew it.
 

Mattersnotnow

Member
Jan 15, 2018
309
Not my intention to put pressure, there should be none, but have they said if Huber and Jones will be able to attend easy livin'?
 
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BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
900
I mean others already answered you with essentially what I would say.
But I hope you realize there isn't really much to argue given that the detriment objectively occurred for some backers. Something was undeniably taken away and absolutely nothing concrete was communicated to the backers that would be an appropriate compensation for what was lost.
The "detriment" in this case is not getting it on a platform they were never promised they were getting it on at the time they backed. Nothing about the initial agreement was violated (setting aside the physical PC version which I agree is bad). I understand expectations may fluctuate based on later communications, but no one can claim they were sold a bill of goods based on the original Kickstarter. It's petty and infantile for these people to act like getting Shenmue 3 on Steam was more important that getting it at all 4 years down the line. But given how all the EGS threads go in this forum, it's hard to tell who is actually a mad Shenmue 3 backer, and who is just mad on behalf of theoretical Shenmue 3 backers/Chinese Linux Users/Russians trapped by a predatory payment service.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
The "detriment" in this case is not getting it on a platform they were never promised they were getting it on at the time they backed. Nothing about the initial agreement was violated (setting aside the physical PC version which I agree is bad). I understand expectations may fluctuate based on later communications, but no one can claim they were sold a bill of goods based on the original Kickstarter. It's petty and infantile for these people to act like getting Shenmue 3 on Steam was more important that getting it at all 4 years down the line. But given how all the EGS threads go in this forum, it's hard to tell who is actually a mad Shenmue 3 backer, and who is just mad on behalf of theoretical Shenmue 3 backers/Chinese Linux Users/Russians trapped by a predatory payment service.
You make the assumption that the EGS deal was needed to finish this game. I am not convinced that's true. Metro Exodus didn't need that money as it was decided weeks before release, so the game was already done by that time. It's just Deep Silver who wants to make more money, they had more than enough to publish Shenmue 3.

Also, they asked for 2 million or so to create this game and they got over 3 times as much (if I remember correctly).
So except if they lied about what they needed when they created their kickstarter (which they obviously did, the kickstarter was just created to attract publishers), they should have gotten plenty of money to finish the game to begin with. I know they probably need at least 10 - 20 times as much, but it's a shady thing to use a crowdfunding platform to attract publishers to begin with (without disclosing this fact in the kickstarter).

Btw, I don't think anyone does really care that they used it like this (I don't really care at least), but it is stretching the definition of crowdfunding to begin with and it hurts all smaller indie titles who genuinely need that support of backers. Ysnet clearly never needed the money of the backers to begin with. My guess is that they already had a publisher who was ready to fund them, but just wanted to see if people were interested or not. It doesn't look to me like they really care about their backers/fans (Deep Silver doesn't anyway).

Also, I would say that calling someone with a different opinion to your own petty and infantile is not really a mature thing to do either. The pot is calling the kettle black. It honestly seems to me that you get more worked up over this whole thing than 99% of the backers that are complaining.

I know it's not easy too look at other people's opinions if they are different from your own, but it's probably a good skill to learn. It comes in very handy in life if you want to discuss things like adults. Some people don't agree with you on this, others do. It's just how life goes, it's probably a good thing to learn to deal with it as it's something that happens. Calling people you don't agree with names doesn't make your point look stronger, I would say the contrary is true (and yes, that comes from the asshole who went way too hard on the whole betting special thing, I'm not perfect either).
 
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BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
900
Also, I would say that calling someone with a different opinion to your own petty and infantile is not really a mature thing to do either. The pot is calling the kettle black. It honestly seems to me that you get more worked up over this whole thing than 99% of the backers that are complaining.

I know it's not easy too look at other people's opinions if they are different from your own, but it's probably a good skill to learn.
I'm not really interested in a lecture in being human from you. I don't think it's controversial to call the people throwing tantrums all over the internet over the tiniest slights infantile. That's people reaping what they sow with their caustic behavior. It's not a situation you can "both-sides". Some responses are simply not rational, despite the endless effort to rationalize them. The reality is you can't suggest that Epic isn't a lying, anti-consumer villain in an EGS thread on this forum without getting mass reported to mods for "shit-posting", getting called a "corporate bootlicker" and being compared to Ben Shapiro. Maybe you just haven't been exposed to as much of these threads as I have, but it's well beyond agree to disagree territory.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
I'm not really interested in a lecture in being human from you. I don't think it's controversial to call the people throwing tantrums all over the internet over the tiniest slights infantile. That's people reaping what they sow with their caustic behavior. It's not a situation you can "both-sides". Some responses are simply not rational, despite the endless effort to rationalize them. The reality is you can't suggest that Epic isn't a lying, anti-consumer villain in an EGS thread on this forum without getting mass reported to mods for "shit-posting", getting called a "corporate bootlicker" and being compared to Ben Shapiro. Maybe you just haven't been exposed to as much of these threads as I have, but it's well beyond agree to disagree territory.
I haven't seen a lot of these threads as I don't care enough to lose my sleep over this whole thing (and I'm glad I haven't as this discussion is honestly somewhat destroying this thread as is, I am part to blame as well obviously). I honestly think that calling people names makes it more likely for other people call you names back. Nobody did that in here as far as I know and it's a bit weird that you started calling people names because you don't like being called names. I usually don't really care what people say or think about me, but my opinion is that you can't complain that people do the same thing to you as you do to others.

This thread is generally really fair in how people speak to each other even if they disagree. You speak to me like I am a different species from you, which is a very weird take as we are all human. It's honestly something I always find weird how some people can't seem to understand that other people can have different opinions without being unable to speak to them and without getting pissed off at them.

As far as this thing goes, I think it's something I can for sure both-side (maybe you can't, I don't know). I have and I will keep doing it. I generally don't stand on your side on this as I do think it's an anti-consumer thing to do (btw, I don't think this is EGS' fault, they are allowed to offer publishers money for exclusivity). I also don't care that new games are EGS exclusive. I won't buy them on there, but there isn't too much wrong with that. It's the switching around after the fact that I find anti-consumer.

That said, I have said before that I do understand it from the publisher and devs position (and obviously Epic's position as well). I also understand why a lot of people don't see any problem with what happened. It's your right to not care on what you play the game and that you think the fact that it exists is way more important.

I don't think it's that hard to see both sides in this argument at all. It just depends on what you find important in PC gaming and how you feel about publishers/devs changing the terms of a kickstarter after it has been funded.
 
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BBboy20

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,089
Sure, THREE YEARS after the Kickstarter. And circumstances change. The game has also been delayed multiple times. If you don't trust a dev to choose what's best for the project, don't back games. I don't begrudge any developer for reacting to changes in the market landscape.
Oh, you're here too. Fuck.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
900
User Banned (1 month): Inflammatory Point of Comparison; Numerous Prior Bans for Inflammatory Accusations and Trolling
I haven't seen a lot of these threads as I don't care enough to lose my sleep over this whole thing (and I'm glad I haven't as this discussion is honestly somewhat destroying this thread as is, I am part to blame as well obviously). I honestly think that the ability to not call people names makes other people call you names back. Nobody did that in here as far as I know and it's a bit weird that you started calling people names because you don't like being called names. I usually don't really care what people say or think about me, but my opinion is that you can't complain that people do the same thing to you as you do to others.
Have you not recognized the irony in your advice to not diminish other people's opinion as you simultaneously insult my maturity, imply that I am also petty and infantile, attempt to assume the moral high ground and repeatedly suggest that I am getting too "worked up"?

Personally, I think the greater danger is in pretending we can't call something what it is for fear of god knows what. It's how we get Nazis walking around again like that's an OK thing, let police off the hook for murdering black children and allow rape to be reframed as "sexual misconduct". But I digress...

You should also note that I never actually called anyone any names. I simply described a behavior.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Belgium
Have you not recognized the irony in your advice to not diminish other people's opinion as you simultaneously insult my maturity, imply that I am also petty and infantile, attempt to assume the moral high ground and repeatedly suggest that I am getting too "worked up"?

Personally, I think the greater danger is in pretending we can't call something what it is for fear of god knows what. It's how we get Nazis walking around again like that's an OK thing, let police off the hook for murdering black children and allow rape to be reframed as "sexual misconduct". But I digress...

You should also note that I never actually called anyone any names. I simply described a behavior.
You say that I insult you maturity, which is 100% what you did before I said anything to you about this:
It's petty and infantile for these people to act like getting Shenmue 3 on Steam was more important that getting it at all 4 years down the line.
But I guess I did do the same thing you did without realizing it. I never wanted to diminish your opinion and I don't think I ever have, but if I did, I apologize (I do agree that I insulted your maturity, I still believe that you can't complain about people doing the same thing you do to them).

I also think that your examples are something completely different from a video game company creating a video game.
Those examples are genuine threats to society and to large populations of the world. What you see in the Shenmue 3 thing is an opinion and isn't even comparable to Nazi's, police brutality/racism and rape.

I honestly think you are taking this a step too serious if you think those are the same type of problems.

I think it's probably best to keep these discussions about Shenmue 3 to a separate thread as it's really killing the mood and vibe in here.
I really hope for you I am completely wrong about this and Shenmue 3 (and Epic) will do great.
 

ShadyK54

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,240
Texas

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
The "detriment" in this case is not getting it on a platform they were never promised they were getting it on at the time they backed. Nothing about the initial agreement was violated (setting aside the physical PC version which I agree is bad). I understand expectations may fluctuate based on later communications, but no one can claim they were sold a bill of goods based on the original Kickstarter. It's petty and infantile for these people to act like getting Shenmue 3 on Steam was more important that getting it at all 4 years down the line. But given how all the EGS threads go in this forum, it's hard to tell who is actually a mad Shenmue 3 backer, and who is just mad on behalf of theoretical Shenmue 3 backers/Chinese Linux Users/Russians trapped by a predatory payment service.
My dude it was in the surveys to pretend that is not bait and switch is pretty disingenuous. Kickstarter is about having a good faith relationship. If you want to insist on the letter we can just put the whole kickstarter in the trash for not fulfilling the 100 buck reward.

"SHENMUE 3 TRIAL VERSION

Your choice of a digital copy of the game for PC or PS4, or a physical copy for PC + A digital copy of the trial version for PC + Your name in the credits. Be the first ANYWHERE to play Shenmue 3. Get the real word straight from the development team."

I could argue how this is just a blatant lie now but that is just as silly as pretending that no backers were getting fucked over because it wasn't explicitly promised when there is plenty of evidence(surveys and inquiries to ysnet before the deal) that steam version were the plan before they sold out their backers. To pretend that there wasn't a real expectation communicated that was later squashed is simply being dishonest.
But hey if we go by the letter 6,539 backers(that's only counting the $100 backers and isn't including the ~10k backers above the tier that would also be eligible for the 100 tier reward) would have every reason to see this promise as broken and demand reimbursement on not having their tier fulfilled. Since (non backer) press have gotten access to play Shenmue 3 before actual backers.

There are plenty more example of how Ysnet have not fulfilled their part of the deal as it is written down explicitly in the kickstarter but people do not complain about these things because there is an understanding and empathy around certain things just changing to no malicious intent. But when you just blatantly fuck over backer sanctification in favor of more money from someone else for no benefit of the backer no matter the reason that understanding of course flies out of the window.
 
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Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,793
There are plenty more example of how Ysnet have not fulfilled their part of the deal as it is written down explicitly in the kickstarter but people do not complain about these things because there is an understanding and empathy around certain things just changing to no malicious intent. But when you just blatantly fuck over backer sanctification in favor of more money from someone else for no benefit of the backer no matter the reason that understanding of course flies out of the window.
I understand that everyone is blinded by righteous anger over this stuff, but the thing is -- it's also blindingly obvious that this drama isn't in the best interest of the franchise or in the best interest of YsNet. The "bait and switch" theory doesn't check out -- they've spent long hours for 4 years turning Shenmue 3 into a reality. What's the motive? What's the goal? There isn't a logical explanation if you assume it's YsNet making these calls. The franchise is basically dead now, and 3 hasn't even launched. It will be reviewbombed. Critics will pan it and feel good about themselves. It's over

But if you say, "Deep Silver and Epic don't give a crap about Shenmue fans and is willing to f them over for a cheap buck", that's a more believable story. So I read it as a cautionary tale for a dev being hands off on the business side and trusting a publisher that doesn't represent their interests. I haven't seen any other explanation that makes sense to me. Take the money and run? Run where? And with what money, what we've seen for 3 suggests they've been spending a lot of manpower and effort on it (though not as much as even an AA budget would allow...)

It's sad, Shenmue 2 is one of the greatest games of all time and 3 seems like it might shape up to be pretty good...
 

Bloodworth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
446
I'm not interested in getting into a whole back and forth on the subject, but I think that they may not have even been able to fathom this kind of backlash. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these deals were made before any of them went public, and in the eyes of the developers, they may have thought that fans would be more than happy to have the full featured experience that those extra funds would enable, with little concern for which service brought them the game on PC.

This could simply be due to them not having as savvy of an awareness of the PC market, or like I said, it could simply be due to the fact that the ink dried long before any of the Epic stuff hit the news and people started expressing their frustration.

People have been critical when some of us say, "it's just another button on your PC," but the people making this deal could have very much had that same perspective and would have no clue people would feel betrayed or like their rewards weren't being properly fulfilled. (And of course, a lot of this is pure conjecture as I have no idea when these deals were really made.)
 

Hasney

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,134
I'm not interested in getting into a whole back and forth on the subject, but I think that they may not have even been able to fathom this kind of backlash. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these deals were made before any of them went public, and in the eyes of the developers, they may have thought that fans would be more than happy to have the full featured experience that those extra funds would enable, with little concern for which service brought them the game on PC.

This could simply be due to them not having as savvy of an awareness of the PC market, or like I said, it could simply be due to the fact that the ink dried long before any of the Epic stuff hit the news and people started expressing their frustration.

People have been critical when some of us say, "it's just another button on your PC," but the people making this deal could have very much had that same perspective and would have no clue people would feel betrayed or like their rewards weren't being properly fulfilled. (And of course, a lot of this is pure conjecture as I have no idea when these deals were really made.)
From what Tim Sweeny has said, the Metro Exodus deal happened really close to announcement of the deal, because that's where Tim said that they'll "never do this again", so Deep Silver knew what to expect. YsNET, probably not.

They way they've gone about it has been absolutley terrible more than anything. Phoenix Point has done a similar thing from being backed to being EGS exlusive, but when that was announced they:
  • Had a personal message from the head of the studio
  • Offered refunds before anyone asked
  • Added a years worth of DLC to all backers
And we know from Fig backers they recieved around $2 million for the EGS deal, which is great for a start-up developer and absolutley not money they should turn down. For someone who's not currently willing to support the EGS, it's worked out well because it will also be on the PC XBox Game Pass on day of launch.

In contrast, Shenmue 3 has:
  • Announced the deal with a logo at the end of a trailer
  • Refused refunds, until either pressure or a word from Deep Silvers lawyers pointed out a mention of Steam somewhere made them offer refunds
  • Offered pre-order bonuses that backers won't get
The complaints would still be there and valid even if they did this right, but the complete mis-handling of the situation has not helped in the slightest.