EHRC report into the Labour Party (UK) - Update Corbyn Suspended

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,184
Actually, the more I think about Corbyn’s response - the more astounded I am by the stubbornness of it.

you do not come out and say that the issue has been exaggerated for political purposes on the day when it’s been ruled that wrongdoing did occur

that just reads like an attempt to deflect the wider issue, however wronged Corbyn feels

I don’t think he’s some racist monster like some will rush to make out, but his stubbornness has often been seen as a fault and it’s an example of it here I think
 

Combo

Member
Jan 8, 2019
2,119
There are lot of people in denial about how unfairly Corbyn was treated. He isn't that weak, he isn't a bad person, he did more against anit-Semitism than any other leader has done about racism. And think about how they pressured him to label anti-Zionism as Antisemitism!!

We have a prime minister who called black people picaninnies and there are people in this thread calling Corbyn selfish. You drank the MSM koolaid.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,651
Belgium
I don't think we should resort to whataboutism for whatever vile stuff the Tories are up to. Corbyn's comments are downright bad. While it's true that antisemitism was weaponised by the Tories, you do not just come out and say that. Must be awful to read for the people affected by it.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,846
Leeds, UK
Magic Grandad No More. Had the whip removed as well it seems.

When people said Corbyn was unelectable, it was because of his constant nonsense stubborn behaviour like this. The endless own goals.

Also for those that missed it, Corbynite Len McCluskey delivered a ridiculous soundbite of "go home and count your gold" to Peter Mandelson who heralds from a Jewish family on Newsnight the other week. The Project had a real rotten side to it.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,800
London
Actually, the more I think about Corbyn’s response - the more astounded I am by the stubbornness of it.

you do not come out and say that the issue has been exaggerated for political purposes on the day when it’s been ruled that wrongdoing did occur

that just reads like an attempt to deflect the wider issue, however wronged Corbyn feels

I don’t think he’s some racist monster like some will rush to make out, but his stubbornness has often been seen as a fault and it’s an example of it here I think
From the guardian liveblog:

Angela Rayner, Labour’s deputy leader, who was promoted to the shadow cabinet under Corbyn, said the former party leader had “an absolute blind spot” on appreciating the scale of the problem.

Asked by BBC Radio 4 about Corbyn’s suspension, she said: “I’m devastated that it’s come to this. Today should be about really listening, reading and taking in the report.”

She rejected the idea that the issue had been exaggerated for partisan reasons, saying people should read the EHRC report: “I think that brings shame on us, and there’s no mitigation of that, and we have to acknowledge that and do something about it.”

Asked about Corbyn’s response, she said: “I’m deeply, deeply upset by the circumstances, and upset that Jeremy wasn’t able to see the pain that the Jewish community have gone through.

“Jeremy is a fully decent man, but as Margaret Hodge said, he has an absolute blind spot, and a denial, when it comes to these issues. And that’s devastating.”
I fully agree with the bolded and it's been my own thoughts for a while now. Corbyn reminds me of some the crappy "allies" you get occasionally in feminist or anti-racist spaces who espouse the ideals but still have unexamined biases and prejudices because you know, we're all products of a racist and sexist society. But when called on it they get upset and refuse to reflect because it's part of their self-image that they're not racist or sexist or whatever. I am positive that Corbyn has never intentionally said, done or defended anything anti-semitic and no doubt genuinely believes he hasn't, because being anti-racist is a big part of his ideals, but oof he's had some real fuck-ups like initially defending that mural when it's absolutely dripping in anti-semitism or sharing stages with people who have some said some vile shit about Jews or defending some Labour party members he's mates with when they've been caught crossing the line from anti-zionism to anti-semitism. You don't do those things if you don't have a blindness to the harm.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,651
Belgium
The man has a right to disagree with the contents of the report. To say Corbyn was stubborn is wrong. He was forced to even redefine antisemitism.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Corbyn was unfairly treated. But claiming that the problem of antisemitism was 'dramatically overstated' must not be pleasant reading material for victims of racism. It's such a tone deaf respons that just drags down the rest of the messaging.

 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,943
Yeah this is all bad, any kind of discrimination is bad in politics and it's fucked up that it happened, it's annoying that it was allowed to fester for so long, but as someone who doesn't know how this works, why have we also not had them looking into the open racism from the other major UK party as well? I hate that any form of racism is allowed and because of it being allowed stuff like brexit happens, and it's fucked up this is still the major take away that one party had issues and the media are acting like thats it when we have a prime minister who has openly been racist for years in print form as well as on mics. How about we get all these shit people out from every corner of politics and stop trying to focus on certain types that are and aren't allowed, it's all disgusting horrible shit and every single MP no matter the party needs to be kicked out the moment a racist thing is said or written by them

I still can't believe the tories escaped the Windrush situation basically without any kind of damage, they openly destroyed documents from people who have lived here most of their lives, who helped rebuild the UK and then because those documents were gone started deporting them without any care for the proof they have lived here so decades. If america did that we would have a huge deal made of it because it's fucked up, but somehow the UK being allowed to do it was nothing of note. I'll never forgive that shit.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
9,929
Most of you wont click on the report so for reference here's the excerpt from the report on what the actual antisemitism was;

1. Use of antisemitic tropes.
This means using written or verbal
phrases or images that suggest antisemitic ideas or stereotypes.
Examples that we found included referring to the idea that Jews are
part of a wider conspiracy, or are responsible for controlling others
and manipulating the political process, including the Labour Party. For
example, referring to Jewish people being a ‘fifth column’.

Example:

Local Rossendale Borough councillor, Pam Bromley, posted on
Facebook: ‘Had Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party pulled up the
drawbridge and nipped the bogus AS [antisemitism] accusations in the
bud in the first place we would not be where we are now and the fifth
column in the LP [Labour Party] would not have managed to get such a
foothold ... the Lobby has miscalculated ... The witch hunt has created
brand new fightback networks ... The Lobby will then melt back into its
own cesspit.’


2. Suggesting that complaints of antisemitism are fake or smears.
Labour Party agents denied antisemitism in the Party and made
comments dismissing complaints as ‘smears’ and ‘fake’. This conduct
may target Jewish members as deliberately making up antisemitism
complaints to undermine the Labour Party, and ignores legitimate and
genuine complaints of antisemitism in the Party. These comments
went beyond simply describing the agents’ own personal experience
of antisemitism in the Party.

Example:

In media interviews in April 2016, Ken Livingstone, a Labour Party
National Executive Committee (NEC) member, made reference to social
media posts made by Naz Shah MP. Naz Shah’s posts included a
graphic suggesting that Israel should be relocated to the United States,
with the comment ‘problem solved’, and a post in which she appeared to
liken Israeli policies to those of Hitler.
Naz Shah apologised for her comments in Parliament and conceded
that they caused ‘upset and hurt to the Jewish Community’. Ken
Livingstone repeatedly denied that these posts were an
sought to minimise their offensive nature. In his denial, Ken Livingstone
alleged that scrutiny of Naz Shah’s conduct was part of a smear
campaign by ‘the Israel lobby’ to stigmatise critics of Israel as
antisemitic, and was intended to undermine and disrupt the leadership
of Jeremy Corbyn MP.
We have taken into account Ken Livingstone’s right to freedom of
expression, which is protected by Article 10 of the ECHR. Article 10 is
relevant when Labour Party members, for example, make legitimate
criticism of the policies of the Israeli government, as we explain above.
The comments made by Naz Shah went beyond legitimate criticism of
the Israeli government, as she acknowledged, and are not protected by
Article 10. Neither is Ken Livingstone’s support for those comments.


Example:

In April 2019, Pam Bromley posted on Facebook: ‘Looks like fake
accusations of AS [antisemitism] to undermine Labour just aren’t
working, so let’s have Chris Williamson reinstated’.
On 15 December 2019, she posted on Facebook about Jeremy Corbyn:
‘My major criticism of him – his failure to repel the fake accusations of
antisemitism in the LP [Labour Party] – may not be repeated as the
accusations may probably now magically disappear, now capitalism has
got what it wanted’.
Effect of antisemitic
It also further describes conduct by members of the labour party that it isn't actually legally responsible for but further contributed to a hostile environment.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct
in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights
Act 1998 terms (see the section on freedom of speech and the European
Convention of Human Rights above). There will be many other cases where the
Labour Party concluded properly, or may still conclude, that conduct is
antisemitic and in breach of its conduct rule.
In many more files there was evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’
member of the Labour Party, who did not hold any office or role, whose conduct
the Party could not be directly responsible for under equality law.
The unwanted conduct complained of in this group related to social media
comments that:
• diminished the scale or significance of the Holocaust
• expressed support for Hitler or the Nazis
• compared Israelis to Hitler or the Nazis
• described a ‘witch hunt’ in the Labour Party, or said that complaints had
been manufactured by the ‘Israel lobby’
• referenced conspiracies about the Rothschilds and Jewish power and
control over financial or other institutions
• blamed Jewish people for the ‘antisemitism crisis’ in the Labour Party
• blamed Jewish people generally for actions of the state of Israel
• used ‘Zio’ as an antisemitic term, and
• accused British Jews of greater loyalty to Israel than Britain.
The Labour Party should deal with antisemitic conduct by its members
effectively, regardless of whether it is legally responsible for it under equality law.
 
Oct 31, 2017
524
Always a politically motivated "scandal" designed to purge the labour party of socialists and pro-Palestinian members. I hope Corbyn sues the party.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,382
Ironically one of the things that his fans like most about Corbyn - that he has a firm and stubborn commitment to his ideals - is also what makes him such a shitty politician. He is utterly incapable of being flexible when he needs to be and seemingly incapable of sincerely admitting he could be wrong about something. it's dragged Labour down regarding anti-semitism the whole time.

Having said that, even for someone like me who thinks Corbyn is a well-meaning fool who completely shit the bed as leader, it rankles that the real sabotage of the party including the handling of the anti-semitism issue by centrist malcontents like Sam Matthews from the tweet a few posts up gets swept under the rug and even rewarded. In a just world, those fuckers should have got nothing but scorn from Starmer and co but instead Starmer completely folded because he wants to move on from the issue as fast as possible. It's clear his mission is to 'detoxify' the party as quickly as possible and it seems to be working judging from the polls but it's still a kick in the teeth that some truly awful people got an apology and a payout because it was the right move from a PR point of view.

And it's not just the damage done to the Labour party that pisses me off so much about it - it's that by slowrolling and sabotaging the complaints process it had a real and significant effect on how safe Jewish people felt in Labour and the country as a whole. You can think that the scandal was exaggerated for political purposes as much as you want but it is also undeniable that the Jewish community was genuinely scared by it.
I've read a bit of the report, and it, honestly, reads to me way more as a massive institutional failing (bad rules, bad processes to deal with rule-breaking, bad training - which is all openly admitted by Labour in the report ), than people sabotaging the party. That's not to say that people weren't incompetent or acting in a way to sabotage the party, it's just that that stuff pales in comparison with the fact that the party just wasn't set up to investigate these issues properly. Like your complaints system shouldn't be hamstrung by a guy not looking at an email inbox.
 
Oct 31, 2017
524
I'm not disagreeing with you that Corbyn was unfairly treated. But claiming that the problem of antisemitism was 'dramatically overstated' must not be pleasant reading material for victims of racism. It's such a tone deaf respons that just drags down the rest of the messaging.

The claim was the party was "institutionally antisemitic". The Labour party had 500,000 members under Corbyn, it would be impossible for there not to be ANY examples of antisemitism and the report just verifies that given that it found only 2 instances of the equality act being breached. Add to that the report found that the complaints procedure was improved under his leadership.
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,794
The claim was the party was "institutionally antisemitic". The Labour party had 500,000 members under Corbyn, it would be impossible for there not to be ANY examples of antisemitism and the report just verifies that given that it found only 2 instances of the equality act being breached. Add to that the report found that the complaints procedure was improved under his leadership.
The report makes it pretty clear that the way the Labour party dealt with antisemitism differed, for example, from claims of sexual harassment that put people who complained about the former at a disadvantage. That's what is meant by "institutional".
 

Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,213
Having said that, even for someone like me who thinks Corbyn is a well-meaning fool who completely shit the bed as leader, it rankles that the real sabotage of the party including the handling of the anti-semitism issue by centrist malcontents like Sam Matthews from the tweet a few posts up gets swept under the rug and even rewarded. In a just world, those fuckers should have got nothing but scorn from Starmer and co but instead Starmer completely folded because he wants to move on from the issue as fast as possible. It's clear his mission is to 'detoxify' the party as quickly as possible and it seems to be working judging from the polls but it's still a kick in the teeth that some truly awful people got an apology and a payout because it was the right move from a PR point of view.
This sums up how I feel. The actual systematic issues with anti-semitism in Labour are going to be swept under the rug because Bad Man Gone, despite the mountains of evidence that many of the real perpetrators are still in positions of power within the party. Fuck Labour if doesn't actually clean house (spoiler it won't).
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,800
London
I've read a bit of the report, and it, honestly, reads to me way more as a massive institutional failing (bad rules, bad processes to deal with rule-breaking, bad training - which is all openly admitted by Labour in the report ), than people sabotaging the party. That's not to say that people weren't incompetent or acting in a way to sabotage the party, it's just that that stuff pales in comparison with the fact that the party just wasn't set up to investigate these issues properly. Like your complaints system shouldn't be hamstrung by a guy not looking at an email inbox.
This is entirely fair. Clearly the complaints system was not fit for purpose if one man can fuck it up either out of laziness or malfeasance.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
20,438
Good to see a swift move on Corbyn but there is far more to do and uphold.

Corbyn is totally blind, perhaps a decent person but he is so oblivious it's staggering, either the people he surrounds himself with or he just can't step back and see it properly because as long as he is against all racism, doesn't matter what the protocols are. It's like he understands it's bad but it ruined his chances of change or something so please ugh, stop talking about it, I'm a good person, no worries. It was bad leadership.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,379
The claim was the party was "institutionally antisemitic". The Labour party had 500,000 members under Corbyn, it would be impossible for there not to be ANY examples of antisemitism and the report just verifies that given that it found only 2 instances of the equality act being breached. Add to that the report found that the complaints procedure was improved under his leadership.
Even as someone who is fairly ignorant in the inner workings of Labour, it has taken me about 5 seconds of googling to disprove your comment.

“Although some improvements have been made to the process for dealing with antisemitism complaints, it is hard not to conclude that antisemitism within the Labour party could have been tackled more effectively if the leadership had chosen to do so,” the report states.

It's quite clear that while those in charge of the party may not have engaged in antisemitism, they were in no way taking it seriously.

The fact that Corbyn came out today and tried to shift the blame to outside actors is damning indictment on himself and those around him. It's also verging on a Trumpian maneuver. I would have expected better.
 

C J P

Member
Jul 28, 2020
821
London
I think the difference between them is that while Sanders is still resolute what he wants to achieve he's also willing to try and actually engage with people who disagree with him, unlike our Corbs. exhibit a: the complete stubborness by he and his aides to do the right thing about this situation. can't possibly swallow his pride for one thing even when it became an easily solvable wedge issue that (rightly or wrongly) was doing an inordinate amount of damage to Labour.
Yep. It really doesn't matter whether Corbyn is personally antisemitic or not - nobody has a window into his soul - but his refusal to engage with this issue seriously caused real divisions within the party. Apart from the genuine fear many Jewish people felt under his leadership, the fact that this was incredibly unnecessary is the most galling thing about it.

And as someone else said: the fact that the Tories are racist does not excuse Labour's failure on this issue. If you want Labour to replace the Tories, Labour has to be better than the Tories, and besides, the Tories benefit from racism in a way that Labour simply does not.
 

bulbasort

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
302
Love that the left gets scapegoated about antisemitism (which is a real problem but one that Corbyn isn't guilty of) while active transphobia by centrists is swept under the rug.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,184
From the guardian liveblog:



I fully agree with the bolded and it's been my own thoughts for a while now. Corbyn reminds me of some the crappy "allies" you get occasionally in feminist or anti-racist spaces who espouse the ideals but still have unexamined biases and prejudices because you know, we're all products of a racist and sexist society. But when called on it they get upset and refuse to reflect because it's part of their self-image that they're not racist or sexist or whatever. I am positive that Corbyn has never intentionally said, done or defended anything anti-semitic and no doubt genuinely believes he hasn't, because being anti-racist is a big part of his ideals, but oof he's had some real fuck-ups like initially defending that mural when it's absolutely dripping in anti-semitism or sharing stages with people who have some said some vile shit about Jews or defending some Labour party members he's mates with when they've been caught crossing the line from anti-zionism to anti-semitism. You don't do those things if you don't have a blindness to the harm.
Yep
 
Oct 31, 2017
524
Even as someone who is fairly ignorant in the inner workings of Labour, it has taken me about 5 seconds of googling to disprove your comment.

Although some improvements have been made to the process for dealing with antisemitism complaints, it is hard not to conclude that antisemitism within the Labour party could have been tackled more effectively if the leadership had chosen to do so,” the report states.

It's quite clear that while those in charge of the party may not have engaged in antisemitism, they were in no way taking it seriously.

The fact that Corbyn came out today and tried to shift the blame to outside actors is damning indictment on himself and those around him. It's also verging on a Trumpian maneuver. I would have expected better.
Gee things must have been terrible under that virulent antisemite Ed Milliband.
 

deli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,265
Yep. It really doesn't matter whether Corbyn is personally antisemitic or not - nobody has a window into his soul - but his refusal to engage with this issue seriously caused real divisions within the party. Apart from the genuine fear many Jewish people felt under his leadership, the fact that this was incredibly unnecessary is the most galling thing about it.

And as someone else said: the fact that the Tories are racist does not excuse Labour's failure on this issue. If you want Labour to replace the Tories, Labour has to be better than the Tories, and besides, the Tories benefit from racism in a way that Labour simply does not.
The labour party has used white panic about migrants and black people stealing jobs to drive up votes for as long as the labour party has existed in a modern context. Labour benefits from racism just as much as the tories do, Keir will receive no long term pushback on his BLM comments precisely because this is true.
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,269
East Midlands, England, UK
People should NEVER have been loyal to Corbyn - they should have been loyal to the progressive policies and values he was supposed to stand for.

Making a martyr of him after this report just feels like the totally wrong approach to me.

Progressives and lefties should be standing against prejudice and anti-Semitism together.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,620
Love that the left gets scapegoated about antisemitism (which is a real problem but one that Corbyn isn't guilty of) while active transphobia by centrists is swept under the rug.
It's not just centrists. TERFs are a broad spectrum problem across the entire party. There are absolutely members on the hard left who are also transphobic.

The UK's issue with transphobia unfortunately goes well beyond any specific party group or leaning.
 

GrantDaNasty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,065
Amazing how much people need to vilify Corbyn to "return to normal" (i.e racism, transphobia and sticking it to the lower-class is fine, fuck them amirite?).

As bad as US politics are, it could be worse - they could be the UK.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,312
I am absolutely fucking gobsmacked by Corbyn's statement. No contrition, no introspection, just conspiracy and pouting.

He could and fucking should have been such an important force for leftism in this country, but instead he's damaged it like no one else in the modern age, and he's learned the absolute square root of jack shit. Fuck him.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
10,113
Amazing how much people need to vilify Corbyn to "return to normal" (i.e racism, transphobia and sticking it to the lower-class is fine, fuck them amirite?).

As bad as US politics are, it could be worse - they could be the UK.
Err I'm not sure essentially saying Donald Trump and and republicans aren't that bad is the right take be going on about here.
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,794
It's funny, the only time I remember Milliband's Labour being criticised for antisemitism, was when Ed said Israel murdering 2000 people in Gaza was wrong.
I feel like this defense runs out of road quite quickly. To be honest, I don't remember much of Milliband's Labour, but the argument that claims of antisemitism under Corbyn were politicised doesn't discredit the simultaneous claim that Labour under Corbyn was institutionally antisemitic, or did not quickly enough change antisemitic policies that might have predated his leadership. All of that can be true.
 

BUNTING1243

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,190
Actually, the more I think about Corbyn’s response - the more astounded I am by the stubbornness of it.

you do not come out and say that the issue has been exaggerated for political purposes on the day when it’s been ruled that wrongdoing did occur

that just reads like an attempt to deflect the wider issue, however wronged Corbyn feels

I don’t think he’s some racist monster like some will rush to make out, but his stubbornness has often been seen as a fault and it’s an example of it here I think
He’s absolutely right though
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,620
Maybe looking into who's making these blatant bad-faith actions would be a good start on actually tackling the party's issues 🤔.
Because yes. In response to a widely published independent investigation that showed real issues about anti-semitism in the party, the best response would be to... investigate the people complaining about anti-semitism.

That sounds sensible and rational.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
9,929
The claim was the party was "institutionally antisemitic". The Labour party had 500,000 members under Corbyn, it would be impossible for there not to be ANY examples of antisemitism and the report just verifies that given that it found only 2 instances of the equality act being breached. Add to that the report found that the complaints procedure was improved under his leadership.
I feel that you're oversimpifying, leaving context out and vastly misrepresenting what was written in the 130 page report here.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,768
As a jew myself, I personally feel that these charges are way overblown and were used to oust Corbyn from leadership and now cast him out from the party entirely by neoliberal labour party members, the right-wing tories, and the right-wing British press.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,821
User Banned (Permanent): Antisemitic conspiracy theories; prior severe ban for downplaying systemic racism.
Most of you wont click on the report so for reference here's the excerpt from the report on what the actual antisemitism was;



It also further describes conduct by members of the labour party that it isn't actually legally responsible for but further contributed to a hostile environment.
I mean, that example isn't Corbyn though?
And it's very arguable.

This is pretty clearly a zionist hit job, and the EHCR isn't actually the ECHR, which would've been an actual damning judgement

I mean, the entire thing happened, yes, but it's so milquetoast you'd find violations of this grade in any major organization, and the entire thing continues to be a coverup to keep defending the absurd, immoral stance of supporting Israel.
 
Oct 31, 2017
524
I feel like this defense runs out of road quite quickly. To be honest, I don't remember much of Milliband's Labour, but the argument that claims of antisemitism under Corbyn were politicised doesn't discredit the simultaneous claim that Labour under Corbyn was institutionally antisemitic, or did not quickly enough change antisemitic policies that might have predated his leadership. All of that can be true.
The claim made by Corbyn, that he is now being smeared and purged from the party for is that "the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media."

What is saying is unquestionably true.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,493
So we are distrusting this independent report by the EHRC, is what some of you are saying?
 

Blent

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,269
East Midlands, England, UK
Because yes. In response to a widely published independent investigation that showed real issues about anti-semitism in the party, the best response would be to... investigate the people complaining about anti-semitism.

That sounds sensible and rational.
There are absolutely, 100% definitely people within Labour and outside who are using this report cynically for political reasons and they can fuck off.

But that also doesn't mean that Corbyn et al are in any way less deserving of valid criticism.

It's just a really, deeply sad state of affairs all around for us on the left.