Electric Cars Are Better For The Environment Than A 50 MPG Gasoline Car: Report

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,992
Houston
I felt like this thread needed to be made, especially on this forum I see so much anti EV propaganda(that usually stems from Koch brothers funded disinformation campaigns), and downright false statements being made....people seem to want to hand wave away EVs as if they're somehow not important in the fight against climate change and don't move the needle. That could not be further from the truth. A Tesla Model 3 in New York gets the equivalent of 306 mpg. In California it's 161. That matters. The grid becomes more and more clean every single year, therefore so do EVs, that matters. Pretending hybrids are good enough is asinine and only lets the oil industry continue to win and continue to collect revenue to fund political campaigns to prevent action.
not only is the grid getting cleaner, but the venn diagram of EV owners who also get solar is not insignificant.
 

Cocolina

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,924
Ideally you’d want to leave the car to charge overnight, not have to drive it to a charging point. Especially since they need charging more often than a standard car needs petrol and take much longer to charge than it takes to fill up. To get the kind of proliferation that tips the scales in favour of electric will take government intervention I think.
 
Dec 1, 2017
181
Start a thread about the dangers of SUVs/Trucks, how the increase in large vehicle purchases are offsetting environmental gains from EVs, or really anything anti-large vehicle, and see how it goes. I got buried in the last one, drivers on this forum LOVE their big vehicles, and are unwilling to even consider the alternatives.
I'm not disputing anything you said - you're absolutely right that people love their crossover/SUV/trucks here and it does offset any EV progress in the environmental area, which sucks.

Just don't see any direct 'Koch Brothers Propaganda Machine' posts or threads and OP doesn't feel like digging for them. Guess I need just need a tinfoil hat.

People making statements like 'I can't afford it' or 'I don't have the infrastructure to support it around me' isn't Koch Propaganda.
 

Miyahon

Member
Nov 8, 2017
205
My apt had an electric charger that had expensive rates to charge and no one ever used it who lived here. Plus parking is limited so the parking spot was always taken by a non electric vehicle. Eventually it broke and they removed it citing that they could not get it repaired by the company that services it.
 

Gpsych

Member
May 20, 2019
198
I absolutely love my Model 3 and would never go back to an ICE car at this point. That being said, if I didn’t have a home charger, it would be a tough situation. I have a super charger not too far from where I work (6 miles) but it would still be a pain in the ass if I couldn’t charge at home.
 

Emergency & I

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,471
I work for an EV Company, specifically one that's helping build the public infrastructure. It's coming along rapidly so there's really no excuse for those saying they 'have no way to charge it'. There's only going to be more and more money going into this infrastructure. It's crazy.

Affordability is still the better excuse for not opting EV.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,110
Ideally you’d want to leave the car to charge overnight, not have to drive it to a charging point. Especially since they need charging more often than a standard car needs petrol and take much longer to charge than it takes to fill up. To get the kind of proliferation that tips the scales in favour of electric will take government intervention I think.
not only is the grid getting cleaner, but the venn diagram of EV owners who also get solar is not insignificant.
you can get smart chargers that wait until your solar is generating before diverting to your car - good for eg weekend daytime charging. And they can link up with your energy supplier to schedule during off peak times. And overnight is also good generally for the grid as less demand.

i think I read somewhere recently that in the uk it’ll be mandatory to have a 7kw home charger included in new build houses soon (I guess at least those with off street parking?)
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,360
Yeah, but electric charging stations are not like gas stations where you stop to fill in for two minutes and then go. Cars charge over a long period of time, which is why they charge at home.
If you have a supercharge station nearby you can charge up to 80% in about 45 minutes. Lots of people I know park at a Target supercharger, do the errands, and are good for 2-3 days.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,143
If you have a supercharge station nearby you can charge up to 80% in about 45 minutes. Lots of people I know park at a Target supercharger, do the errands, and are good for 2-3 days.
I don't know what typical shopping habits are but I can't say I'm spending 45min at Target every 3 days. Is that typical?
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,110
Ranges will go up so you don’t charge as often; charging speeds will go up - supercharger v3 goes up to 250kw, about 0-80% in 15 mins?; and even apartments will start to have charge points in the parking spaces.

charging is different to fuelling but not necessarily worse. for long journeys you may heed to take a 30 min break to top up, but if you can charge at home you may never need to charge away from home, so you’re saving time vs insisting a petrol station
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,553
There was a video from Engineering Explained on Youtube that I watched that did the math and found that if you actually take manufacturing the battery into account in addition to charging, in many states it's better for the environment to either have a normal hybrid or plug-in hybrid than pure EV. Anything is better than full gas cars though. Just wish EV's weren't so expensive and there were a greater variety of performance EV's.
 

Kenstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,157
Earth
Isn't it bad long term for the batteries to ONLY be charged via superchargers? if you have no home/work charging?
 

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
318
Recently got my first EV and can't imagine ever going back.
Same

I don't have a great home charging situation (running a long cord out from the house from a normal outlet) but I have a level 2 charger a 5 min walk away. I just dump the car for a few hours and walk back, or drive a mile to a fast charger
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,134
This is a super popular talking point for anti-EV people about how Teslas end up being worse! for the environment. Good there's more data on this.
 

Bramblebutt

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,643
Sounds great. If I had the ability to purchase a $30,000+ automobile I would definitely want it to be an EV.
 

pezzie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,055
I'd consider an EV when I move to a place that'll let me install one at a permanent parking spot (right now I've got street parking), or my work gets them put in. Until then I'm gonna keep on gassing on. Or we get to a point where 5-10 mins at the charging station can get you a 75% charge.

I believe infrastructure will continue to improve and charging will become way more widespread soon, but it's not at that point for me yet. I am looking forward to making the change over someday but it's not now.
 
OP
OP
Ryno23

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
824
Isn't it bad long term for the batteries to ONLY be charged via superchargers? if you have no home/work charging?
Yeah it's certainly not ideal, they're more meant for road trips... But I've read plenty of Tesla stories of people doing nothing but supercharging and showing minimal degradation after years

There was a video from Engineering Explained on Youtube that I watched that did the math and found that if you actually take manufacturing the battery into account in addition to charging, in many states it's better for the environment to either have a normal hybrid or plug-in hybrid than pure EV. Anything is better than full gas cars though. Just wish EV's weren't so expensive and there were a greater variety of performance EV's.
Yeah I remember watching that video, and I do believe he cuts off the calculation after what 5 to 6 years. I was making the point earlier that the standard 200k miles and then the car needs to be crushed at a junkyard really does not apply to EVs and makes these calculations end up completely wrong because it's not looking at lifetime. Obviously it will take years to get the data, but I see no reason the vast majority of Model 3s won't end up lasting 500k plus miles... That REALLY changes the carbon equations. The battery is rated to last 500k miles.. And that doesn't mean it stops working then, just will be showing degradation but by all means the car will continue to drive just with less range, while the drive train is rated for a million miles. Everything else is trivial to repair/replace. The next gen Tesla batterys are supposed to be rated for a million miles as well, that will fundamentaly alter the very idea of car ownership if 1 car can last an entire lifetime of driving....
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,553
Yeah it's certainly not ideal, they're more meant for road trips... But I've read plenty of Tesla stories of people doing nothing but supercharging and showing minimal degradation after years



Yeah I remember watching that video, and I do believe he cuts off the calculation after what 5 to 6 years. I was making the point earlier that the standard 200k miles and then the car needs to be crushed at a junkyard really does not apply to EVs and makes these calculations end up completely wrong because it's not looking at lifetime. Obviously it will take years to get the data, but I see no reason the vast majority of Model 3s won't end up lasting 500k plus miles... That REALLY changes the carbon equations. The battery is rated to last 500k miles.. And that doesn't mean it stops working then, just will be showing degradation but by all means the car will continue to drive just with less range, while the drive train is rated for a million miles. Everything else is trivial to repair/replace. The next gen Tesla batterys are supposed to be rated for a million miles as well, that will fundamentaly alter the very idea of car ownership if 1 car can last an entire lifetime of driving....
If you only factor in powertrain then the Model 3 has the potential to last a long time (although I dunno about 500k miles, isn't the warranty only 70% of battery life guaranteed for 8 years/120k miles for the long range?), but my last 3 cars have all been retired due to reasons other than the powertrain. Rust, interior/exterior physical damage, electronics issues, and wear & tear can all reduce ownership length.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,757
You only need to sell your kidney to afford a Tesla, no biggie.

Still it's good that they're worth it almost everywhere now in terms of emissions.
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,503
Honestly been wanting an electric or at least a hybrid car for awhile now, but my financial situation won’t allow for an upgrade. 😓
 
OP
OP
Ryno23

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
824
If you only factor in powertrain then the Model 3 has the potential to last a long time (although I dunno about 500k miles, isn't the warranty only 70% of battery life guaranteed for 8 years/120k miles for the long range?), but my last 3 cars have all been retired due to reasons other than the powertrain. Rust, interior/exterior physical damage, electronics issues, and wear & tear can all reduce ownership length.
Yeah the warranty only lasts 120k. I meant Teslas internal testing had the battery cycle count to be the equivalent of 500k miles. Yeah I think a big part of the Cybertruck is actually the external/rust thing. The rest of a Tesla is pretty modular, the Cpu can be easily swapped out etc
 

brochiller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
726
Still not taking into consideration all the emissions created from extraction of oil, refining of oil, and transporting gas to the gas station.
 

Midramble

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,836
San Francisco
Anyone arguing that an EV isn't better for the environment than a typical ICE vehicle isn't even trying to argue in good faith. The evidence for this is surface level and I don't believe anyone on a fence is actually making purchase decisions on this. Price, state of the infrastructure, and alternatives are more realistic factors in the decision. The root of this thread seems pretty obvious.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,553
Yeah the warranty only lasts 120k. I meant Teslas internal testing had the battery cycle count to be the equivalent of 500k miles. Yeah I think a big part of the Cybertruck is actually the external/rust thing. The rest of a Tesla is pretty modular, the Cpu can be easily swapped out etc
I'd be curious to see if extreme heat/cold will have an effect on how long the battery lasts overall, like for example if having 100 degree weather a large portion of the year will cause premature wear.

Also with the electric motors being lower on the car than a traditional motor is, would there be potential for damage to them being easier from driving through somewhat deep puddles during mild flooding?
 

Thatguy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,603
Seattle WA
Buying any new car has a massive emissions cost in metal smelting and other stages of manufacturing. I would be curious how long it would take a new EV car to surpass the footprint of a used 50 mpg car.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,449
Get a full EV or a Plug in Hybrid. Both are good options.

I think my next car will be electric. Maybe a used Model 3
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,992
Houston
There was a video from Engineering Explained on Youtube that I watched that did the math and found that if you actually take manufacturing the battery into account in addition to charging, in many states it's better for the environment to either have a normal hybrid or plug-in hybrid than pure EV. Anything is better than full gas cars though. Just wish EV's weren't so expensive and there were a greater variety of performance EV's.
are you talking about this one? I've watched a number of his videos, and that hasn't been my take away. I've also watched a number of other videos about it. From my understanding driving average miles per year it takes about 2 years for the EV to offset its total carbon footprint from creation.
this goes up or down based on how much you drive and if your getting clean energy from say solar panels on your roof.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,553
are you talking about this one? I've watched a number of his videos, and that hasn't been my take away. I've also watched a number of other videos about it. From my understanding driving average miles per year it takes about 2 years for the EV to offset its total carbon footprint from creation.
this goes up or down based on how much you drive and if your getting clean energy from say solar panels on your roof.
Yeah I believe that's the video. If you use solar energy then of course emissions will be FAR less with an EV, most people don't currently have solar panels and won't invest in getting them though so it makes more sense to run numbers assuming you're getting your electricity from your local power company imo.

I do think it's silly to have the mindset that it's EV or nothing, every little bit helps and going hybrid is still better than a pure ICE car (not to mention actually affordable for a much larger percentage of people).
 

dr.rocktopus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,444
I believe it. Engineering Explained did a similar comparison which does consider end to end manufacturing and operating costs and EVs still come out on top in terms of emissions.

Shitting in hybrids is dumb though. Getting a hybrid is still in the right direction. More likely than not (unless the extended range/new Leafs or Bolts come way down in price to the 10k CAD range) my next vehicle will be a hybrid. EVs are still too expensive and ask too much for all-purpose use. But I would much rather have someone step in the right direction towards environmental consciousness than be like ThE oIL MaFiA or some shit.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,948
If you have an ICE car, drive it till it dies. Get the production costs in terms of impact out of it.

Obviously this depends on the age of the car, but if you can keep your car going till the halfway point of this decade, you'll very much be looking at an EV that is cost competitive with your average new ICE vehicle. This also isn't accounting for the likelihood of government subsidies or government intervention in accelerating EV adoption.

For people who want a deep dive on this topic.

 
Jun 20, 2019
1,128
Still not taking into consideration all the emissions created from extraction of oil, refining of oil, and transporting gas to the gas station.
It does take that into account. It says so in the article.
For a gasoline car, that means looking at emissions from extracting crude oil from the ground, moving the oil to a refinery, making gasoline and transporting gasoline to filling stations, in addition to combustion emissions from the tailpipe.
 

nekkid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,110
It’s all fun and games until we run out of lithium in 10 years.

Hydrogen is still the route forward.