Electric Cars Are Better For The Environment Than A 50 MPG Gasoline Car: Report

Ryno23 · Feb 13, 2020

Electric Cars Are Better For The Environment Than A 50 MPG Gasoline Car: Report

Electric cars increasingly seem to be the answer for lowering America’s transportation emissions numbers. Not only do they already produce zero emissions in the process of driving, but even pollute far less than gasoline cars when you take into account the emissions generated in the production...

jalopnik.com

The latest data from 2018 regarding emissions from electricity generation in the US have just been released, and it proves that only 6% of Americans live in a region where EV power generation emissions are worse than a 50 mpg car.

Even in the most pollutant-heavy grid region spanning eastern Wisconsin and much of Michigan's Upper Peninsula, the average EV would only emit as much as a 39 mpg gasoline car. The worst case scenario for EVs is still far better than the average of 31 mpg for new gasoline cars and 21 mpg for new gasoline trucks.
94 percent of Americans live in a region where driving an EV produces fewer emissions than driving a new Toyota Camry Hybrid or Honda Insight.

The study uses a 2020 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, which uses only 0.24 kWh of electricity per mile traveled as its "most efficient EV" standard for the chart below. If you drive one of these and you live in Upstate New York, your emissions are the equivalent of a gasoline car getting 306 mpgs, which obviously does not exist. This is because the NYUP region produces over 65% of its power from nuclear, hydroelectric, and wind.

I felt like this thread needed to be made, especially on this forum I see so much anti EV propaganda(that usually stems from Koch brothers funded disinformation campaigns), and downright false statements being made....people seem to want to hand wave away EVs as if they're somehow not important in the fight against climate change and don't move the needle. That could not be further from the truth. A Tesla Model 3 in New York gets the equivalent of 306 mpg. In California it's 161. That matters. The grid becomes more and more clean every single year, therefore so do EVs, that matters. Pretending hybrids are good enough is asinine and only lets the oil industry continue to win and continue to collect revenue to fund political campaigns to prevent action.

Deleted member 4367 · Feb 13, 2020

Still can't charge one. Renters are left out of EVs.

Mesoian · Feb 13, 2020

Yaboosh said:
Still can't charge one. Renters are left out of EVs.

Yup. There's absolutely 0 way I would be able to recharge an electric car with the layout of my building and that will never change as long as anyone lives there.

kvetcha · Feb 13, 2020

Yaboosh said:
Still can't charge one. Renters are left out of EVs.

Yep. Not compatible with townhome life.

Euler007 · Feb 13, 2020

Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

kvetcha · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

Most likely.

hurlex · Feb 13, 2020

I don't know where you guys live, but there are public charging stations.

QuigleyMcShine · Feb 13, 2020

As suspected but its it's nice to see the numbers laid out. Now we just need the prices to come down a bit further.

Bitch Pudding · Feb 13, 2020

Sad thing is that the US currently doesn't give a single flying fuck about reducing CO2 emissions. Instead it's all about fracking, drilling for oil in Alaska and clean coal, whatever that is.

clockworkinyou · Feb 13, 2020

Where are the examples of the anti-EV propaganda proliferated by the invisible Koch brothers on this forum?

If anything, there's too many Muskbros here, but don't see anyone really shitting on EVs like you claim.

Sobriquet · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

No. Second sentence in the article

edit: I misread. It's referring to charging

nsilvias · Feb 13, 2020

no shit?

Deleted member 21709 · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

GOT EM! FILL ER UP

The Albatross · Feb 13, 2020

Cool stats for the driving a 2020 Tesla Model 3 in North East... equivalent of driving a 300+ mpg car due to how electricity is generated. Would love one, but priced out.

Ryno23 · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

As far as I know yes, but the whole manufacturing emissions thing with Evs is completely overblown and more than made up for within 3 years of ownership... Not to mention there's no reason modern Evs won't be on the road for 500k+ miles. Most of the critics just assume an EV will only last 200k miles like a typical gas car at best, and well that's just simply not true as long as the battery is taken care of.

VeryHighlander · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I don't know where you guys live, but there are public charging stations.

They are literally saying where they live in their posts. Townhomes, apartment buildings...etc

hurlex · Feb 13, 2020

VeryHighlander said:
They are literally saying where they live in their posts. Townhomes, apartment buildings...etc

I was talking about region obviously. Living in a townhome doesn't prevent someone from going to an off-site charging station if they are available.

Foltzie · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

It does not, but the general rule of thumb is that manufacturing environmental carbon costs are ~15% higher on electric cars. Which equates to 5-10k of miles to make the electric car better than Ice.

TheBryanJZX90 · Feb 13, 2020

kvetcha said:
Most likely.

Good job answering the wrong answer instead of just reading and getting the right answer

Just because some random thought popped into your head doesn't mean you need to share it

Barzul · Feb 13, 2020

I can kinda understand not buying a Tesla or other EV if you can't do the home charging set up. I only got mine after purchasing a house for this very reason as well.

WillyFive · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I was talking about region obviously. Living in a townhome doesn't prevent someone from going to an off-site charging station if they are available.

Yeah, but electric charging stations are not like gas stations where you stop to fill in for two minutes and then go. Cars charge over a long period of time, which is why they charge at home.

danowat · Feb 13, 2020

clockworkinyou said:
Where are the examples of the anti-EV propaganda proliferated by the invisible Koch brothers on this forum?

If anything, there's too many Muskbros here, but don't see anyone really shitting on EVs like you claim.

Batteries only lasting a few years is a good one.

GalvoAg · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I was talking about region obviously. Living in a townhome doesn't prevent someone from going to an off-site charging station if they are available.

Yeah that sounds like fun adding a couple hours into my commute for the hell of it.

Zache · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I was talking about region obviously. Living in a townhome doesn't prevent someone from going to an off-site charging station if they are available.

How long does it take to charge one of these cars anyway? There's a charging station at my local grocery store but I can't imagine sitting there for an hour(plus?) every day before or after work.

kvetcha · Feb 13, 2020

TheBryanJZX90 said:
Good job answering the wrong answer instead of just reading and getting the right answer

Just because some random thought popped into your head doesn't mean you need to share it

Maybe you should re-read the article, and re-read the question I was responding to.

Ryno23 · Feb 13, 2020

clockworkinyou said:
Where are the examples of the anti-EV propaganda proliferated by the invisible Koch brothers on this forum?

If anything, there's too many Muskbros here, but don't see anyone really shitting on EVs like you claim.

Koch brothers launch new misinformation campaign against electric cars

Koch brothers launch misinformation campaign against EVs

electrek.co

At first, it was about how electric vehicles are being subsidized by taxpayers. Of course, in those attacks, they left out the fact that fossil fuels have been subsidized by governments for decades at a rate way higher than EVs or renewable energy.

When that wasn't working, they instead went to the go-to argument that electric cars are powered by dirty energy from the grid. Of course, that's energy that they themselves partly produce.

Their latest propaganda effort against EVs focuses on sourcing metals for batteries and spreading misinformation about EVs in general.

You see these arguments almost word for word all over the internet and this forum... Conservative think tanks know what the hell they are doing and are VERY effective. People like to think they are woke or they somehow know better, but really they are just parroting Koch propaganda...

XMonkey · Feb 13, 2020

Not really sure this forum is rife with Koch/anti-EV propaganda tbh.

Seems like a lot of us are in favor of EVs, but either can't afford them or don't have a good charging situation. It's a legitimate hurdle.

caff!!! · Feb 13, 2020

Living in a house here, EVs and plug-in hybrids are out of my budget and my area (yeehaw corn country) despite my interest in them. Sorry y'all, a off-lease versa note is still cheaper to buy and own than a used model 3

Thatonedice1 · Feb 13, 2020

Zache said:
How long does it take to charge one of these cars anyway? There's a charging station at my local grocery store but I can't imagine sitting there for an hour(plus?) every day before or after work.

Tesla got it down to about 30 minutes last I heard.

clockworkinyou · Feb 13, 2020

Ryno23 said:
You see these arguments almost word for word all over the internet and this forum... Conservative think tanks know what the hell they are doing and are VERY effective. People like to think they are woke or they somehow know better, but really they are just parroting Koch propaganda...

This forum? You're just linking to external stuff where other opinions do exist, even when they're wrong. I just really don't see what you're trying to prove by saying this forum is riddled with these same incorrect opinions.

Vincent Alexander · Feb 13, 2020

Maybe it is time I look into one of these---

-looks at prices-

I think I just shit my pants.

Megabreath · Feb 13, 2020

If every ICE is replaced then won't we will need to produce way more energy to charge them all? 32 million cars just in the UK, that is alot

golem · Feb 13, 2020

clockworkinyou said:
Where are the examples of the anti-EV propaganda proliferated by the invisible Koch brothers on this forum?

If anything, there's too many Muskbros here, but don't see anyone really shitting on EVs like you claim.

The manufacturing emissions boogeyman, which are offset within 18 months of ownership, was brought up in this very thread

Ryno23 · Feb 13, 2020

clockworkinyou said:
This forum? You're just linking to external stuff where other opinions do exist, even when they're wrong. I just really don't see what you're trying to prove by saying this forum is riddled with these same incorrect opinions.

I linked to an article discussing the Koch brothers disinformation campaign and the talking points they attempt to use to sour people on Evs. Such as this one:

Lastly, without sourcing their claim, the "Fueling U.S. Forward" campaign claims that batteries end up in landfills without being recycled. That's something that is obviously false and actually one of the biggest advantages EVs have over gas-powered cars on the environment.

I see drive by posters in the EV threads spouting this stuff... As recently as a week or two ago.. Sorry I'm not going to go digging for posts, but I frequent all EV and Tesla threads and the Koch influence can be readily apparent.

Walter White Walker · Feb 13, 2020

I'd consider one but one they're way too expensive and the batteries just last however long. Two is I live in an apartment with my parking spot well away from my unit so realistically I'd need to spend a lot of time at the Walgreens up the street charging it. I'm not doing that.
I really do like my new to me Toyota Yaris. I was driving a Honda Odyssey and went from about $140 a month in gas to about $30.

Deleted member 39374 · Feb 13, 2020

Euler007 said:
Does this exclude manufacturing emission?

This is a common "argument" used by fossil fuel lobbyists and it's been rebuked numerous times

Schlep · Feb 13, 2020

Walter White Walker said:
I'd consider one but one they're way too expensive and the batteries just last however long.

Agreed. Some of the electric cars look amazing, but they're still aiming for converting luxury car owners, and especially ones who drive a lot. For someone like me who doesn't want to spend $60-70k on a car, and has 3600 miles on my Stinger after 9 months...not a whole lot of incentive to switch. And it's not from lack of research/desire.

hurlex · Feb 13, 2020

GalvoAg said:
Yeah that sounds like fun adding a couple hours into my commute for the hell of it.

Everyone wants us to do something about climate change until it infringes on their personal convenience.

VeryHighlander · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I was talking about region obviously. Living in a townhome doesn't prevent someone from going to an off-site charging station if they are available.

Yes it does, because people like to leave their cars at the homes at night. So they can wake up and take their car to work in the morning without adding another quest mission.

StrangerDanger · Feb 13, 2020

Walter White Walker said:
I'd consider one but one they're way too expensive and the batteries just last however long. Two is I live in an apartment with my parking spot well away from my unit so realistically I'd need to spend a lot of time at the Walgreens up the street charging it. I'm not doing that.
I really do like my new to me Toyota Yaris. I was driving a Honda Odyssey and went from about $140 a month in gas to about $30.

Yea it sucks so much when you have an apartment. I can charge at the Meijer close toe, but when it's snowing and cold, there's no way I could afford that time realistically to charge. Traveling to and from work about 25-30miles a day. Least moved from Lexus SUV to a Toyota Avalon Hybrid. Baby steps

hurlex · Feb 13, 2020

VeryHighlander said:
Yes it does, because people like to leave their cars at the homes at night. So they can wake up and take their car to work in the morning without adding another quest mission.

There are plenty of people who own an EV and live in an apartment. It's not impossible.

ParanormalFupa · Feb 13, 2020

clockworkinyou said:
Where are the examples of the anti-EV propaganda proliferated by the invisible Koch brothers on this forum?

If anything, there's too many Muskbros here, but don't see anyone really shitting on EVs like you claim.

Start a thread about the dangers of SUVs/Trucks, how the increase in large vehicle purchases are offsetting environmental gains from EVs, or really anything anti-large vehicle, and see how it goes. I got buried in the last one, drivers on this forum LOVE their big vehicles, and are unwilling to even consider the alternatives.

DopeyFish · Feb 13, 2020

when the EV shift happens... and it's going to come stupidly quick... there's going to be a lot more charging options popping up guaranteed.

Draper · Feb 13, 2020

DopeyFish said:
when the EV shift happens... and it's going to come stupidly quick... there's going to be a lot more charging options popping up guaranteed.

In the meantime tho,

"I ain't got no god dang time to be chargin my vehicle for 30 mins! Back to fossil fuels babaayyyyy"

Mesoian · Feb 13, 2020

hurlex said:
I don't know where you guys live, but there are public charging stations.

The closest one is 3 miles away from my house.

That dog won't hunt.

hurlex said:
There are plenty of people who own an EV and live in an apartment. It's not impossible.

The only people I know who can do this are people who have ev charge stations in their office parking lots/garages.

Meanwhile my office doesn't have a parking lot/garage and every public garage in a 3 mile radius has a 26 dollar minimum to be in there for longer than half an hour.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

D.Dragoon · Feb 13, 2020

Not anti-EV just anti car in general, I am in the pocket of big train and public transportation especially in cities.

Wilf Netherton · Feb 13, 2020

As far as I can see these estimates do not include transmission losses across the electrical grid. They detail the distribution impact for fossil fuel burning vehicles but do not include that category in their breakdown of electric vehicle emissions. That is a significant oversight.

Titik · Feb 13, 2020

Yaboosh said:
Still can't charge one. Renters are left out of EVs.

We have apartments here in LA actively advertising charging stations now so this is def changing. Not ideal of course because it's not everywhere but it's changing.

And in California your landlord is required to let you install one if you formally request it.

Midramble · Feb 13, 2020

D.Dragoon said:
Not anti-EV just anti car in general, I am in the pocket of big train and public transportation especially in cities.

Same

TheBryanJZX90 · Feb 13, 2020

Mesoian said:
The closest one is 3 miles away from my house.

That dog won't hunt.

The only people I know who can do this are people who have ev charge stations in their office parking lots/garages.

Meanwhile my office doesn't have a parking lot/garage and every public garage in a 3 mile radius has a 26 dollar minimum to be in there for longer than half an hour.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

That's too bad! Maybe something to keep in mind if you look for a new place or new job in the future!

Honestly though, the way the auto industry continues to move towards electrification, it does make sense to think about charging capabilities at home or work. Obviously that wouldn't be a deciding factor on its own, but hey if you have two choices that are otherwise pretty equivalent...

Electric Cars Are Better For The Environment Than A 50 MPG Gasoline Car: Report

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