Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0

FliXFantatier

Master of the Reality Stone
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Oct 25, 2017
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People often times seem surprised that there are more EV companies out there than Tesla, granted none of these are as mature as Tesla, but some of them might well be able to catch up and take a bite out of the market in future. Many of these will undoubtedly go the way of the dodo, as these companies are sprouting up like mushrooms at the moment. Every Chinese tech billionaire worth his or her salt is seemingly currently starting their own EV company.
I thought it might be interesting to discuss the EV market overall and how all the entrants stack up and develop over time.

Electric vehicles you can buy right now (location dependent):
Electric vehicles you should be able to buy soon(ish):
Electric vehicles on the horizon:

Non conventional primarily EV companies:


Bordin Motors
Relatively new entrant from China, with a development center in Michigan.



Byton
Relatively far along the development cycle Likely to see the light of day.


EVELOZCITY, Inc.
Very new entrant in the market, little is known so far.



Faraday&Future Inc.

Well into development, they have prototypes driving around the streets. They see themselves as being focused on luxury.



Karma Automotive
Based on and around the Fisker.



Nikola Motor Company

Electric and hydrogen semi truck company from Utah.


NIO
They actually already sell their cars in China, should arrive on western roads soon.


Lucid Motors, Inc.

Formerly known as Atieva, relatively far along the development cycle.


Proterra, Inc.

The only bus manufacturer on the list, currently busy selling their vehicles to municipalities around the world.



Rimac Automobili

The only European company on the list so far. Based in Croatia and founded by a young entrepreneur.



Tesla, Inc.

Whatever you want to say about Tesla and its eccentric owner and founder, it did kick start the electric vehicle development we are seeing today.



Thor Trucks, Inc.

Another electric truck company with a few notable prospective clients to its name already.


Zoox
Future mobility company, unclear to me what their business model actually is going to be.


Conventional automotive manufacturers with electric vehicles on the road:



BMW



Chevrolet



Fiat



Honda



Hyundai



KIA



Nissan



Renault



Smart



Volkswagen

Conventional automotive manufacturers with sizable electric vehicle development ongoing:
  • Basically everyone. :p


If there is interest I will add more info in future, but this has already taken too much of my time as is. :p
The list is also probably also not exhaustive...
 
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xbhaskarx

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Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Can you specify which of these companies actually have commercially available electric vehicles on the market (and on the street in non-negligible numbers) as of now?
 
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FliXFantatier

FliXFantatier

Master of the Reality Stone
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Oct 25, 2017
4,948
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Can you specify which of these companies actually have commercially available vehicles on the market (and on the street in non-negligible numbers) as of now?
For you to buy in the US right now? Probably only Tesla. Byton and NIO should be close followed by Faraday and Lucid. That is based purely on my outside observer impression though.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
For you to buy in the US right now? Probably only Tesla. Byton and NIO should be close followed by Faraday and Lucid. That is based purely on my outside observer impression though.
I wonder how close Byton and NIO really are though? They've announced plans to enter the US market but with no product unveilings or timelines that I'm aware of. I'm guessing they are multiple years out from selling any cars in the US.

I think you can buy a Karma which is the remains of Fisker, but that's still a PHEV with 30ish miles of electric range.

Otherwise as far as I know the only EVs you can buy in all 50 states are the Teslas, the Chevy Bolt, the Nissan Leaf, and the BMW i3.
 

Komarkaze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
339
Beaten - No love for Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt or BMW i3?? I owned a Leaf for almost 4 years until I traded it in for a Model 3.
 
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FliXFantatier

FliXFantatier

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No love for Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt or BMW i3?? I owned a Leaf for almost 4 years until I traded it in for a Model 3.
Well I was thinking about adding the conventional car companies with an EV footprint, but decided against it for now as that would end up crowding out the fully electric companies... But up to the community to decide. I'd be game with either. We could also add planes. :D A few of those companies around these days.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
No love for Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt or BMW i3?? I owned a Leaf for almost 4 years until I traded it in for a Model 3.
Yeah, this is a weird OP, aside from Tesla it's purely focused on cars that either aren't sold in the US (or Europe for that matter) or cars that don't exist at all yet.

Well I was thinking about adding the conventional car companies with an EV footprint, but decided against it for now as that would end up crowding out the fully electric companies... But up to the community to decide. I'd be game with either. We could also add planes. :D A few of those companies around these days.
I think we should focus on cars that actually exist or that will be available soon. I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of these companies just disappear without delivering a single car.
 
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FinKL

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,535
Surprised the electric car list isn't more thorough as none of those cars are actually on the road here in the US that I know of.

Chevy also has an almost decade old Volt and now Bolt.
Nissan has been making Leaf's for like a decade now.
Kia retrofitted their Soul to be an EV.
Toyota's Prius now comes in as a plug-in hybrid, but not fully battery operated.
Honda, Hyundai, and Kia are also joining this/next year with the
Honda Clarity
Hyundai Ionic
Kia Kona and Niro
 
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Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
Non comprehensive list of EVs you can actually buy in the US:

Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model 3
Chevrolet Bolt
BMW i3
Nissan Leaf
Kia Soul EV*
Hyundai Ioniq EV*
Honda Clarity EV* (lease only)
Ford Focus Electric*
Fiat 500e*
Smart fortwo ED*
Kia Niro EV (coming soon)
Hyundai Kona EV (coming soon)
Jaguar i-Pace (coming soon)

In Europe the most popular EV is the Renault Zoe, as I understand it. But it's not sold in the US.

Discontinued:
Chevrolet Spark EV*
Mercedes B-class Electric*
Toyota RAV4 EV*
Honda Fit EV*
Mitsubishi i-MiEV*
Volkswagen e-Golf* (seems discontinued in the US at least)
GM EV1* :)


(*if you live in the right state and managed to snag one of the few cars they made for compliance reasons)
 

Adam_Roman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,857
Non comprehensive list of EVs you can actually buy in the US:

Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model 3
Chevrolet Bolt
BMW i3
Nissan Leaf
Kia Soul EV*
Hyundai Ioniq EV*
Honda Clarity EV* (lease only)
Ford Focus Electric*
Fiat 500e*
Smart fortwo ED*
Kia Niro EV (coming soon)
Hyundai Kona EV (coming soon)
Jaguar i-Pace (coming soon)

In Europe the most popular EV is the Renault Zoe, as I understand it. But it's not sold in the US.

Discontinued:
Chevrolet Spark EV*
Mercedes B-class Electric*
Toyota RAV4 EV*
Honda Fit EV*
Mitsubishi i-MiEV*
GM EV1* :)


(*if you live in the right state and managed to snag one of the few cars they made for compliance reasons)
What about the Volt and Bolt?
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,258
I’m kind of annoyed that you can’t get the BMW 330e in an xDrive config like you can on the 5 series. I really would love a PHEV for the 90% of trips I take that are <20 miles and I have a MWh banked with National Grid to still be used.
 

DarthSontin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
Pennsylvania
I see so many brand-new Bolts in SE PA. It makes me jealous. I've already decided that my next car will be an EV, and I'm hoping to wait for 2020 when tons of models are available.
 

Benita

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Aug 27, 2018
862
If this thread is going to stick around I'm going to need a fix on that title, STAT.
 
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FliXFantatier

FliXFantatier

Master of the Reality Stone
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Oct 25, 2017
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Non comprehensive list of EVs you can actually buy in the US:

Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model 3
Chevrolet Bolt
BMW i3
Nissan Leaf
Kia Soul EV*
Hyundai Ioniq EV*
Honda Clarity EV* (lease only)
Ford Focus Electric*
Fiat 500e*
Smart fortwo ED*
Kia Niro EV (coming soon)
Hyundai Kona EV (coming soon)
Jaguar i-Pace (coming soon)

In Europe the most popular EV is the Renault Zoe, as I understand it. But it's not sold in the US.

Discontinued:
Chevrolet Spark EV*
Mercedes B-class Electric*
Toyota RAV4 EV*
Honda Fit EV*
Mitsubishi i-MiEV*
Volkswagen e-Golf* (seems discontinued in the US at least)
GM EV1* :)


(*if you live in the right state and managed to snag one of the few cars they made for compliance reasons)
Thanks Argyle, added with links. :)
 

Parch

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Nov 6, 2017
3,395
Nice sporty look for the Rimac and Karma. I think I'd still go for the Porsche or Jaguar.
 

shinra-bansho

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Oct 25, 2017
3,902
This may be a tad controversial and this may or may not apply to the people interested here... but I am curious.

New cars are expensive.
New electric cars are expensive.
They are still expensive with or without government subsidies.

So why is it that sales of electric vehicles drop off a cliff when they aren't being incentivised via public funds?
Par exemple:


Research has shown the bulk of these incentives end up with going to people in 90th + income percentiles.

The market seems heavily dependent on government push and pull, so are people only willing to spend if someone else is also helping to foot the bill even if they can still afford it regardless?
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
This may be a tad controversial and this may or may not apply to the people interested here... but I am curious.

New cars are expensive.
New electric cars are expensive.
They are still expensive with or without government subsidies.

So why is it that sales of electric vehicles drop off a cliff when they aren't being incentivised via public funds?
Par exemple:


Research has shown the bulk of these incentives end up with going to people in 90th + income percentiles.

The market seems heavily dependent on government push and pull, so are people only willing to spend if someone else is also helping to foot the bill even if they can still afford it regardless?
Because if they can afford an electric car, they can afford an ICE-based car else that costs the same amount. Changing the price point alters what else one could get for the same money.

And in the case of the Bolt and the Leaf, you also have to consider the gasoline cars those manufacturers sell. Electric motor aside, they aren't much different than the Sonic and Versa, which cost half as much. So the question becomes how much is a person willing to pay to have an electric motor. Apparently for most, not as much as it actually costs. The incentives make a significant dent in that gap.
 

SteveMeister

Member
Oct 31, 2017
598
I’ve had a Bolt EV for about 18 months, and it has just under 50,000 miles on it. Love this car so much. Seriously quick, extremely fun to drive, plenty of range. Highly recommended.
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,448
the $20K electric car before incentives might be a while away, hence the higher-end, luxury-focused cars. unless there's a breakthrough in the next couple years, I don't expect a $20K car until closer to the end of the next decade
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
This may be a tad controversial and this may or may not apply to the people interested here... but I am curious.

New cars are expensive.
New electric cars are expensive.
They are still expensive with or without government subsidies.

So why is it that sales of electric vehicles drop off a cliff when they aren't being incentivised via public funds?
Par exemple:


Research has shown the bulk of these incentives end up with going to people in 90th + income percentiles.

The market seems heavily dependent on government push and pull, so are people only willing to spend if someone else is also helping to foot the bill even if they can still afford it regardless?
I've noticed that you seem very bent on pushing this angle.

The goal of these policies is to push EV adoption earlier along the cost curve, instead of waiting for battery prices to drop to the point where it is equivalent in cost to a gas-powered car. (I think this is expected to happen when batteries hit $100/kwh, likely to occur in the next few years.) It's also possible that without subsidies this point would never be hit if it requires substantial R&D or economies of scale, which can't be justified by current demand. If your policy goal is to reduce the number of gas-powered cars on the road, then I believe this is an effective policy as these EV purchases would have been gas-powered cars for a lot of people (as only the wealthiest could afford or choose to buy an unsubsidized EV for the advantages that EVs have over gas powered cars).

Now, is this the most progressive (as in progressive taxation) policy? I don't think so either. But that's never been the goal of these subsidies, right? Don't forget that eventually even EVs bought by rich people eventually become used cars, and those can be quite affordable (a used Leaf is like ~$10kish and a used BMW i3 is like ~$20kish, and I've heard used Renault Zoes are very affordable in Europe).

I think you also downplay the real advantages that EVs have, the main disadvantages are recharge time and range (which are related problems but honestly are not issues for day to day use for most people, as long as you have a way to charge the car at home) but in general I think they are better than gas-powered cars full stop. You may not be able to appreciate this unless you've driven one. I think that unsubsidized Teslas will hold their own on the high end as they are priced similarly to gas-powered competitors before any credits or subsidies, but we'll see for ourselves soon enough as their tax credits will start phasing out next year in the US.
 
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Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,740
Because if they can afford an electric car, they can afford an ICE-based car else that costs the same amount. Changing the price point alters what else one could get for the same money.

And in the case of the Bolt and the Leaf, you also have to consider the gasoline cars those manufacturers sell. Electric motor aside, they aren't much different than the Sonic and Versa, which cost half as much. So the question becomes how much is a person willing to pay to have an electric motor. Apparently for most, not as much as it actually costs. The incentives make a significant dent in that gap.
Other factors:

Range anxiety, people are terrified of running out of juice. A tax break pushes you to get over that fear .
This varies by dealerships but some dealers are ignorant about EVs and will give you false info or outright try and convince you to buy an ICE car instead.
EVs are rarely on lots so you can't just swing by and test drive one .

A big rebate gives a huge incentive for people to research and buy an EV. Otherwise they'd just buy whatever knowing there's gas stations everywhere.
 

shinra-bansho

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Oct 25, 2017
3,902
Thanks for the responses.

To be clear, I'm not really arguing the advantages or disadvantages of EVs or the rationale behind incentive policy. Obviously the latter is to drive adoption. I think this is not good policy, but what is less clear to me is whether and why it is in practicality necessary policy.

I.e. My query is more on the willingness to pay a premium, both in general and among those on here. The first response from ascii42 basically answers / confirms observations that there isn't much WTP a premium.

Which really leads to the curiosity of the "why"? Why are people socially conscious enough to want an electric vehicle, and typically with the means to pay a premium, not actually willing to pay a premium?

If it was information deficit as suggested then the pattern of a surge and then plummet wouldn't be as obvious I imagine; people buying the vehicles are clearly aware enough of various incentives.
 
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Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
Thanks for the responses.

To be clear, I'm not really arguing the advantages or disadvantages of EVs or the rationale behind incentive policy. Obviously the latter is to drive adoption. I think this is not good policy, but what is less clear to me is whether and why it is in practicality necessary policy.

I.e. My query is more on the willingness to pay a premium, both in general and among those on here. The first response from ascii42 basically answers / confirms observations that there isn't much WTP a premium.

Which really leads to the curiosity of the "why"? Why are people socially conscious enough to want an electric vehicle, and typically with the means to pay a premium, not actually willing to pay a premium?

If it was information deficit as suggested then the pattern of a surge and then plummet wouldn't be as obvious I imagine; people buying the vehicles are clearly aware enough of various incentives.
I mean...

In Hong Kong the price of a Tesla Model S nearly doubled after the incentives went away.

In Denmark the price of a Model S nearly tripled.

I don't think either country phased them out gradually, at all. I mean...no shit the sales fell off a cliff LOL

Even afterwards, this probably changes the psychology of a purchase. I have no idea what competitive cars sell for in those countries, but even if it just brought them to parity I can imagine it would be a tough pill to swallow to know you missed out on getting a 60% discount on the car. If those governments could not afford to provide those subsidies long term, maybe it was bad policy because they were too generous and should have been lower and more sustainable?

Honestly though...is this the right thread to be asking this question? You're basically asking why people AREN'T buying electric cars, and you're in a thread for people who either have already purchased electric cars or are considering it. If you're not interested in buying an electric car, maybe you are better equipped to answer this question for yourself.
 

shinra-bansho

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,902
I'm not interested in any car - so it's a simple enough answer. I don't drive where I currently live. If I was buying a vehicle I would probably buy it second hand, and reliability, affordability and convenience would probably come before any green credentials, and I don't really have too many qualms about that to be pretty frank. I would like to see governments do more to transition people away from single person/low volume transportation modes and to stop designing cities around them.

Those are obviously extreme premiums but there are lesser examples.

A $5K incentive is a reasonable chunk. But also not an absurd additional premium.

The stated intent of the thread is to discuss the EV market. This would fall squarely into that discussion.
So I don't really see this as a bad place to ask what role incentives play in rationalising purchase, where the stated driver of a particular purchase decision is social responsibility, and whether in their absence the purchase premium would be impediment enough to prevent purchase.
 
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Coolness

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Oct 27, 2017
103
SoCal
I’d like to add that government incentives have led used prices on these first wave of EVs to plummet. I picked up my LEAF at less than a third of the original MSRP. So, while the original leasees/owners see a benefit from the incentive, their savings are passed on to future owners.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
I'm not interested in any car - so it's a simple enough answer. I don't drive where I currently live. If I was buying a vehicle I would probably buy it second hand, and reliability, affordability and convenience would probably come before any green credentials, and I don't really have too many qualms about that to be pretty frank. I would like to see governments do more to transition people away from single person/low volume transportation modes and to stop designing cities around them.

Those are obviously extreme premiums but there are lesser examples.

A $5K incentive is a reasonable chunk. But also not an absurd additional premium.

The stated intent of the thread is to discuss the EV market. This would fall squarely into that discussion.
So I don't really see this as a bad place to ask what role incentives play in rationalising purchase, where the stated driver of a particular purchase decision is social responsibility, and whether in their absence the purchase premium would be impediment enough to prevent purchase.
LOL that $5k credit also applied to people who LEASED their car. Get a two year lease on a Leaf, claim your tax credit and with the lower cost of operation of an EV the car was practically free.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Atlanta/comments/22oy3s/nissan_leaf_lease_in_ga_free_car/

In other words I don't think the people driving Leafs in Georgia were particularly concerned about the environment haha

And I think you misunderstood me, you're welcome to ask these questions here (unlike SOME people I am not interested in policing what is on or off topic :), but I dunno what kind of answer you expect to get from us? I mean some people are willing to pay a premium for an electric car and some are not, and those who are willing to pay are willing to pay varying amounts? That should be pretty obvious, right?
 

shinra-bansho

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,902
I mean it's not really a secret though the market is quite subsidy dependent right now, and thus adoption has been highest in places like Norway with a ton of incentivisation.

But my interest was more in the rationale of purchase premiums for social consumption with EVs as an interesting example. So I made a separate thread on this higher level topic anyway.
 

Sankt Ra

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Oct 27, 2017
1,941
Need to include the Deutsche Post with its fleet of EVs :)

And there are far more Chinese brands on the rise. There where like 30 on this years Beijing motorshow.
 

Hesemonni

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Oct 27, 2017
1,969


I remember disliking Hyundai Kona at the launch, but now when I look at the pictures I quite like the way it looks. Don't know when you can actually buy one from the dealer though. I'm seeing ads in mobile.de offering the car for delivery in July 2019 :|
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Which really leads to the curiosity of the "why"? Why are people socially conscious enough to want an electric vehicle, and typically with the means to pay a premium, not actually willing to pay a premium?
The answer to that is that not everyone's interest in electric vehicles is driven by "social consciousness." For those for whom that is the case, electric vehicles are simply another option on the market. Like with hybrids. Some people did buy them for environmental purposes. Other people simply wanted to save money on gas. I know at least one person who leased a Leaf because incentives made it nearly free. You don't have to have much interest in electric vehicles to be sold on that. I think one of the draws of electric motors is the instant torque. Teslas in particular are known for impressive performance, so that's another reason people might be drawn to electric cars.

Speaking personally, the primary driver in my interest in electric vehicles is neither environmental nor in saving money on gas. My interest is technological. I have a love of cars, and a fascination with automotive technology. From all eras, really. I love new cars and old cars.

Beyond that, there's a psychological component to feeling like you're getting a deal. JCPenney would know a lot about that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
690
I really want an electrical car. But it doesn't look like it'll be feasible in the near future.

Here in good old Denmark, Electrical vehicles had 20 percent registration tax added about a year back, and they are adding 20 percent more right about now, which is the completely opposite of what is needed. But I guess that's what you get with a right wing government.

Anyways, I hope that there are more crossover electrical vehicles coming. The kona is a good start.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,075
I've actually seen a couple of Hyundai Ioniq driving around up here recently. They look like normal cars, which is nice. Of course my area is swimming in Teslas and I'm starting to see a lot of Model 3's as the Seattle-Tacoma metro area is Tesla's 2nd or 3rd largest US market outside of California.

Can you specify which of these companies actually have commercially available electric vehicles on the market (and on the street in non-negligible numbers) as of now?
There are a few notable EV's available on the North American market including Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, and recently Hyundai Ioniq, but the only EV on any street anywhere outside of China in non-negligible numbers is a Tesla.

Jaguar only plans to make a total of 13k I-Pace this model year and production is already delayed. The already-announced Porsche Taycan will also be limited to 20k units it's first year. It's not clear how many Audi e-Tron or Mercedes-Benz EQC they plan to make but it will likely also be similarly small numbers.

Batteries don't grow on trees and the only non-Chinese company which has invested in substantial battery production capacity is Tesla, so this how it will be for quite some time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
690
I've actually seen a couple of Hyundai Ioniq driving around up here recently. They look like normal cars, which is nice. Of course my area is swimming in Teslas and I'm starting to see a lot of Model 3's as the Seattle-Tacoma metro area is Tesla's 2nd or 3rd largest US market outside of California.


There are a few notable EV's available on the North American market including Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, and recently Hyundai Ioniq, but the only EV on any street anywhere outside of China in non-negligible numbers is a Tesla.

Jaguar only plans to make a total of 13k I-Pace this model year and production is already delayed. The already-announced Porsche Taycan will also be limited to 20k units it's first year. It's not clear how many Audi e-Tron or Mercedes-Benz EQC they plan to make but it will likely also be similarly small numbers.

Batteries don't grow on trees and the only non-Chinese company which has invested in substantial battery production capacity is Tesla, so this how it will be for quite some time.
Actually the nissan leaf is the best selling EV in europe
https://electrek.co/2018/07/18/nissan-leaf-best-selling-ev-europe/
 

Rival

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
385
Midlands
Jaguar only plans to make a total of 13k I-Pace this model year and production is already delayed
Jaguar have geared up to produce more than 13k, that estimate is very conservative as they don't want to over promise. Also the only delays are on the non First Edition models which always take priority, as once again the delays are just so they don't over promise. I wouldn't be surprised if those unfortunate enough to have had their delivery date pushed back will actually recieve their vehicle close to when they initially planned.

Also JLR are investing heavily on battery manufacture, they have several sites dedicated to it and are also building one right now
 

Deleted member 25709

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Oct 29, 2017
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Great thread OP. Despite me favouring less reliance on the automobile overall, a transition to electric from the combustion engine is an important and necessary step to fighting anthropogenic climate change.
 

ILikeFeet

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Oct 25, 2017
28,448
from the sound of things, the EQC is indeed based on the GLC platform. that could explain the lack of efficiency but what it lacks there, it should make up in costs (to Mercedes). in other words, they won't bleed like Tesla does with their Model X. doubt it will carry over to the consumer. MB is banking on brand name and interior feature for to make up for efficiency. I think it will work. same for the Audi E-Tron.

also new technical video for the EQC
 
Dec 4, 2017
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OP
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FliXFantatier

FliXFantatier

Master of the Reality Stone
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Oct 25, 2017
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I want to add delorian, Lilian and joby too. For flying cars. ;)

I've actually seen a couple of Hyundai Ioniq driving around up here recently. They look like normal cars, which is nice. Of course my area is swimming in Teslas and I'm starting to see a lot of Model 3's as the Seattle-Tacoma metro area is Tesla's 2nd or 3rd largest US market outside of California.
I thought the Ioniq was only sold in California for now?
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,740
The Model3 is the best right now(if price or the CEO's Twitter feed isn't an issue). A Model3 frequently charges next to me at work and I think it looks great. I might have to get used to the giant iPad in the dash. Not sure if my wife would like it though .

The Ioniq is probably the best entry level right now, starts at 35k in Canada and looks pretty nice. I see quote a lot up here . It's also pretty impressive engineering on its own it's the most efficient EV right now IIRC.

Only downside is only 125 mile range and only forced air cooled battery(it can charge up to 100kW speed I wonder how that battery hold up over time in warmer climate).
 

CoolOff

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,059
Should add Volvo's Polestar concept somewhere, even if it's some time away still.