Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
10,651
Cape Cod, MA
All under warranty and these guys are pretty harsh on the batteries. I believe they operate a car service between Las Vegas and LA.

So pretty much a worst case scenario. Most people won't abuse their car like that.

I doubt other manufacturers would do better under such conditions.

That's pretty damn good imo.
It's very good, I just thought it worth pointing out that it hadn't gone 400000+ miles on a single battery. Looks like they got close to 200000 both times.
 

ShadowKingpin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,681
Well, its true that's drivetrain wise, electric cars have much less that would need replacing over time. Its the electronics and batteries that are going to be items that could fail over time.

You mention 300k miles, but just about all the electric cars on the market are so new its hard to tell which will be the longest lasting. Sure there's a small handful that have already done that, but its hard to say if that's the norm or an exception. Only time will tell. Also, since you say you take care of your cars, I'm sure you know a car will last as long as you keep maintaining it.

If you're not in a hurry, its probably better to wait a few years. Prices will keep going down and the technology will continue to improve. With all the new electric cars that are supposed to be coming out in the near future, it could mean more competitive pricing, and you might be able to get a better deal.
Early Leafs had batteries that didn't do well with heat, and didn't have active cooling, so I don't think many of those would have come close to 300,000 miles without major issues, which makes it hard to talk about long term life expectancy of stuff currently on the road. As far as publically available data, the best I know of is voltstats.net which lists metrics for gen 1 and gen 2 Chevy Volts, that owners have chosen to share with the site (the site pulls the data from On Star).

If we look at the EV miles driven of Gen 1 volts, based on vehicles still on the road, you've got a high water mark of something like this: https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1502
That Volt has done over 150,000 EV miles in 7+ years.

If anyone else has better info, I'd love to see it. The main question is battery degradation, but very few EVs are going to have pushed past 200,000 miles yet, let alone 300,000 to give us data points on how easy it is for an EV to reach those totals miles.
All EVs should last a long time due to few moving parts and less wear and tear. I haven't heard of any major issues so far but they are relatively new.

The main issue is battery degradation. The Leaf is particularly notorious as it has no active cooling so people who live in hot climates or who rapid charge a lot saw their battery capacity shrink rapidly. They improved it in 2013 years onwards but I think it's still a problem due to no cooling.

There's a guide here on the Leaf that tells you what to watch for if you're interested. It's a good car otherwise if you live more up north (and you don't mind how it looks).

It's not much of an issue for newer cars. But I'd find out about the battery warranty degradation coverage(or lack thereof) before buying a used one. There's usually a way install an OBD device and get the health of the battery. Something a dealer or private seller will likely not know.




In terms of battery degradation, I'd say Tesla is the best right now.
You are all amazing! Thank you so much for answering my questions. Now, I know that Tesla batteries are normally expensive (I think I read that they got them down to $8K-$12K, but are workings towards $4K or something, I don‘t know), but what are the usual costs for batteries on the cheaper alternatives?
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
Early Leafs had batteries that didn't do well with heat, and didn't have active cooling, so I don't think many of those would have come close to 300,000 miles without major issues, which makes it hard to talk about long term life expectancy of stuff currently on the road. As far as publically available data, the best I know of is voltstats.net which lists metrics for gen 1 and gen 2 Chevy Volts, that owners have chosen to share with the site (the site pulls the data from On Star).

If we look at the EV miles driven of Gen 1 volts, based on vehicles still on the road, you've got a high water mark of something like this: https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1502
That Volt has done over 150,000 EV miles in 7+ years.

If anyone else has better info, I'd love to see it. The main question is battery degradation, but very few EVs are going to have pushed past 200,000 miles yet, let alone 300,000 to give us data points on how easy it is for an EV to reach those totals miles.
It should be noted that the Gen 1 Volt was very very conservative in the design of its battery. As I understand it the things that kill lithium ion batteries are heat, and either charging them to 100% all the time or letting the charge level get too close to zero. You can mitigate these by not allowing the user to charge to 100% (that is, "100%" is actually 80-90% of the actual battery capacity) and making "0%" (where the car shuts down) actually like 10% of the actual battery capacity, and of course having a robust system to cool the battery.

I don't remember offhand what the top and bottom buffers on the Gen 1 were but pretty much only half of the battery was usable, and the cooling system was very good.

The Leaf basically has no cooling system for the battery, and continues to basically have the same problem even in the latest model (I hear they added a fan? I used to drive a Kia Soul EV which also only had a cooling fan and the degradation was significant after three years when I turned the lease in, as I live in a hot climate). So if you live in a hot climate I would not recommend the Leaf or any EV without a liquid cooling system for the battery.

Another thing to note is that Teslas do not have a top buffer, 100% is actually 100%. Charging to 100 occasionally won't kill your battery but doing it every time and letting the car sit at 100 for long periods of time will degrade the battery. In a Tesla they will let you use the full capacity of the battery in case you're going on an occasional road trip, but the car will warn you if you charge to 100% repeatedly.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,034
Canada
You are all amazing! Thank you so much for answering my questions. Now, I know that Tesla batteries are normally expensive (I think I read that they got them down to $8K-$12K, but are workings towards $4K or something, I don‘t know), but what are the usual costs for batteries on the cheaper alternatives?
I think its also worth noting that even the earliest model S's from 2013 are still on their original batteries, and any that had them replaced were done so under the comprehensive 10yr warranty, if your concern is the cost of the batteries or their longevity, Tesla literally guarantees their packs, and if there are any issues with range or degredation beyond the norm, they swap it right out.

Most 2013 S' are still running at 85%-95%+ capacity, at least from what people have reported online and via tracking tools like TeslaFi.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,834
You are all amazing! Thank you so much for answering my questions. Now, I know that Tesla batteries are normally expensive (I think I read that they got them down to $8K-$12K, but are workings towards $4K or something, I don‘t know), but what are the usual costs for batteries on the cheaper alternatives?
It depends on the capacity of the pack and other stuff.
Average market prices for battery packs have plunged from $1,100/kWh in 2010 to $156/kWh in 2019, an 87% fall in real terms, according to a report released Tuesday by Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF).
Prices are projected to fall to around $100/kWh by 2023, driving electrification across the global economy, according to BNEF's forecast
I believe Nissan charges around $8K to replace the battery out of warranty.

In Japan they can sell you a remanufactured battery pack for around half that. The program isn't available outside of Japan but as EVs take off there's no reason it can't happen elsewhere.


Here's one example of what 3rd parties could do, as the car manufacturers would prefer to sell you another car, rather than let you replace/upgrade the battery at a reasonable price.

Some interesting possibilities in the future as prices fall.
 

Shirosaki

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
317
EPA estimates are just that. My EV beats the EPA estimates on almost everything but the coldest days of the year, but your mileage (literally) will vary with air temps, cruising speed, elevation change, and driving habits (hard acceleration vs gradual).
That makes sense! I’ve noticed a drastic difference on cold days. I guess I’m used to EPA estimates for ICE vehicles where it was near impossible for me to reach their metrics unless I kept at the most minimum RPM possible lol. It’s nice that this can actually exceed for a change! Then again I’ll drive well under range for a while and throw it out the window for one quick acceleration show in the P3D. Lol


Just got delivery notice. Picking up my 2020 M3 AWD on Jan 22nd. Woohoo.
Congrats!! That’s so soon!
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,552
Congrats!! That’s so soon!
I know. I was kinda shocked as they estimate me 4-7 weeks and I ordered on Dec. 29. I figured with them blowing out their stock, I'd be on the late end of that. But I got a VIN a few days ago and it's literally hot off the press. Made first day of Jan or so, put on a train yesterday.
 

Shirosaki

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
317
I know. I was kinda shocked as they estimate me 4-7 weeks and I ordered on Dec. 29. I figured with them blowing out their stock, I'd be on the late end of that. But I got a VIN a few days ago and it's literally hot off the press. Made first day of Jan or so, put on a train yesterday.
You’ve got to post some pictures when you get it in! Lol at the hot off the press thing. I remember they told me mines “Birthday” was December 3rd. Kind of similar turn around time to get to Dallas!
 

Radiophonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
720
I know. I was kinda shocked as they estimate me 4-7 weeks and I ordered on Dec. 29. I figured with them blowing out their stock, I'd be on the late end of that. But I got a VIN a few days ago and it's literally hot off the press. Made first day of Jan or so, put on a train yesterday.
When I visited the local Tesla store here, I was told it would only be a couple weeks for an M3. I’m currently waiting to test drive one, as they didn’t have one in stock and won’t for another week or two. After that, assuming I buy one, I have to probably wait till April for pickup, we have to arrange driving to Cleveland for it, and our schedule is crazy till then. Fuck Michigan and its shit car dealer lobby.
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,552
When I visited the local Tesla store here, I was told it would only be a couple weeks for an M3. I’m currently waiting to test drive one, as they didn’t have one in stock and won’t for another week or two. After that, assuming I buy one, I have to probably wait till April for pickup, we have to arrange driving to Cleveland for it, and our schedule is crazy till then. Fuck Michigan and its shit car dealer lobby.
That sucks. We have a Tesla location 15 minutes from our house, so easy peasy.
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,552
I’ll also say I’m thrilled with Progressive insurance. AllState quoted me an obscene number for my Tesla. Progressive is covering my Tesla and Crosstrek for half the price of AllState covering my Crosstrek and 2006 Corolla. It basically comes out to $55 a month for the Tesla with all the extra coverage options added.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,312
Any experience in here with the Hyundai Ioniq? This $79 a month lease special they’re running seems perfect for a commuter car.
 

Wraith

Member
Jun 28, 2018
4,059

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,312
Got a Chevy Bolt this weekend as a second car/commuter car. Dealers are knocking 15k off the MSRP for the 2020s right now.

Really enjoying it so far. No way I buy an ICE vehicle again.
 

TatteredHat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,497
The range on that Mazda is a joke, not to mention the rest. This is not the way to break into the EV market.
 

Argyle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
375
do all EVs have remote climate presetting, even the smaller city cars?
I can't speak for every single EV but I can tell you that the quality of the app for this can vary widely. Typically the way these seem to work is that the car may be sleeping with its internet connection disabled so the app begins communication using an SMS to wake the car, which can take several seconds. The good apps switch to using the internet once the car is awake (like Tesla) but some implementations (like my old Kia, not sure if things have improved lately) will continue to use SMS which means it can take close to a minute to get status from the car (request charge level, for example, receive response from car). I've also seen videos of Leaf drivers in Europe where the app is completely unusable.

You might need to do some research into whichever car you're considering...
 

Gpsych

Member
May 20, 2019
207
From the dealership to immediately getting X-Ice tires installed. No fancy pics yet:

Congrats Octodad! I've had mine for a bit over a month and it's a complete game changer. You're going to love it! Good choice going with the white as well but I'm biased (mine is white as well).
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,552
Congrats Octodad! I've had mine for a bit over a month and it's a complete game changer. You're going to love it! Good choice going with the white as well but I'm biased (mine is white as well).
I really like most of the colors. I almost went for black, but keeping it clean in the dirty snow is too much of a hassle. Didn't want to drop 2k more on the red and I have always been a minimalist, so white is appealing anyway. I really like the clean, OG iPod look.
 

Gpsych

Member
May 20, 2019
207
I really like most of the colors. I almost went for black, but keeping it clean in the dirty snow is too much of a hassle. Didn't want to drop 2k more on the red and I have always been a minimalist, so white is appealing anyway. I really like the clean, OG iPod look.
Lol. You and I had the same thoughts about snow. I live in Northern Colorado and have the exact same issue.
 

opticalmace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,226
For some reason I'm drawn to that yellowy-coloured Honda e. Looks funky.

Wonder when we'll get it in Canada.
 

Octodad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,552
That sounds like a really fun ride, but the range is just so bad. 110 miles is fine for city driving, but cold weather, and other factors can basically cut it in half. I just don’t think those kinds of cars are worth it to have sub-100 mile range functionally.
 

Radiophonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
720
Yeah, I had a Cooper S before my Volt and enjoyed it a lot, but it would need better range before I considered it. And I'd need my kids to be out of the house, since there's no room in that back seat.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,724
Mesa, AZ
That sounds like a really fun ride, but the range is just so bad. 110 miles is fine for city driving, but cold weather, and other factors can basically cut it in half. I just don’t think those kinds of cars are worth it to have sub-100 mile range functionally.
Im guessing its aimed at city drivers that never drive more than like 30 miles a day. Same with the Honda E and similar cars.

Or people like me that have multiple cars and would just use an electric for daily commuting
 

fester

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,485
That sounds like a really fun ride, but the range is just so bad. 110 miles is fine for city driving, but cold weather, and other factors can basically cut it in half. I just don’t think those kinds of cars are worth it to have sub-100 mile range functionally.
I kinda suspect that 110 range is underestimating and will be closer to 150 miles once someone gets a chance to do some real-world testing. Even so, I’ve looked at my driving patterns over the past year and I’ve only thought of a handful of examples where I needed more than 50-60 miles of range in a day. Living in the suburbs, 95% of my use cases are covered, and for any others we have my wife’s Subaru.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,834
I wish reviewers would tell you if the car has a heat pump as an option.

Pretty important for those in colder climates, especially with a more limited range EV.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,034
Canada
If anyone in this thread is considering a tesla in the near future, DM me for a referral code (1000mi/1500km free supercharging!) - I'm dying to get at least ONE referral under my belt and I somehow keep missing out on giving them to friends in time who have recently picked cars up, grr.
 

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
339
I wish reviewers would tell you if the car has a heat pump as an option.

Pretty important for those in colder climates, especially with a more limited range EV.
Word, the lack of precision on the impact of cold weather is frustrating. I didn't wait for the Mini since I didn't think I could deal with a 20-40% range hit on 110 miles. If I could get close to that on the highway in the winter I might have reconsidered
 

Failburger

Member
Dec 3, 2018
1,063
Yeah, heat pumps should be standard. Easy the cost and just make it standard. Beats having thousands of angry customers.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,312
One week down with the new Bolt... I cannot wait to replace my ICE family car with another EV.

Seems like 2022 is going to be a big year for larger EVs, if everyone stays on target. Have there been any murmurs of a Model X exterior refresh or will that always look like an egg?
 

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
831
In case anyone missed the news yesterday Model Y is now going to start delivery in March(this is like 6 months ahead of the previous announcements) for the AWD and Performance versions. Range is now upgraded to 315 miles, was previously 280. Standard range is still expected to go in production early 2021



No shocker it's way more efficient than competition.
 

Lord Panda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,238
Australia
We had a horrendous hailstorm last Monday in a Canberra and it totally wrecked the family car. We were looking at EVs but they were all horrendously expensive down here such as the Kona and the Model 3. In the end I settled on a RAV4 Hybrid to tide us over until EVs are more affordable or when the RAV4 Prime PHEV hits the Australian market in a few years.