Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0

Darren Lamb · Jan 3, 2020

Jzeero said:
So what's the best deal for someone who's not rich but still wants an EV because their car is about to hit 200K miles?

If you are interested in leasing, and can live with 150 miles of range max, I've seen some good deals on the base Leaf. Bolt leases start ending soon so you might be able to get a 2017 in the high teens in a few months

http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/2016/07/current-lease-offers-for-selected-evs.html

DekuBleep · Jan 3, 2020

I bought a Prius Prime 2020 in September 2019.

It can go 25 miles on electric only. this is less than we usually do for daily commute. It charges over night in six hours on a normal outlet.

If you go on a long trip it also has a gas tank. We use it when we go to visit family.

i think this should be considered ab electric vehicle too

dr.rocktopus · Jan 3, 2020

SteveMeister said:
You could always get a Bolt or Hyundai or Kia EV.

tbh even a Bolt is like 42k to start in Ontario. Ioniq is about the same. I'm in the same position as Hieberrr and for now the prices are too rough to deal with unless going with a used Leaf. The lack of rebates from the Ontario government suck.

Kendrid · Jan 3, 2020

DekuBleep said:
I bought a Prius Prime 2020 in September 2019.

It can go 25 miles on electric only. this is less than we usually do for daily commute. It charges over night in six hours on a normal outlet.

If you go on a long trip it also has a gas tank. We use it when we go to visit family.

i think this should be considered ab electric vehicle too

Our next vehicle will probably be a plug-in hybrid. We have a Model 3 and while we love it, we need a long range ICE car at times.

Darren Lamb · Jan 3, 2020

MA brought back the EV rebate, but didn't retroactively extend it, lol. Have an email out to the program for clarification, but I think I missed out on 1500 or 2500 by leasing in Q4 19 instead of Q3 19 or 2020 onwards. I feel like they should throw me a bone for taking a chance without knowing if the credit would come back; didn't seem like it was going to pass at the end of the year. Boo!

PhoenixDawn · Jan 3, 2020

Hmm, I'm thinking/hoping 2020 is the year I finally make the jump to an EV. I've always been cautious about it though because I'm sure Minnesota winters are pretty harsh on the battery, but my daily commute is pretty darn short (<10mi each way). I do go on trips sometimes in the general area (i.e. Chicago is the farthest) but that's probably a couple times a year and I anticipate it's probably doable with the stations that are up now when I do it so I'm thinking 100% EV is the choice.. Admitedly I know basically nothing about them besides general info, so time to delve into some resources and learn...

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

PhoenixDawn said:
Hmm, I'm thinking/hoping 2020 is the year I finally make the jump to an EV. I've always been cautious about it though because I'm sure Minnesota winters are pretty harsh on the battery, but my daily commute is pretty darn short (<10mi each way). I do go on trips sometimes in the general area (i.e. Chicago is the farthest) but that's probably a couple times a year and I anticipate it's probably doable with the stations that are up now when I do it so I'm thinking 100% EV is the choice.. Admitedly I know basically nothing about them besides general info, so time to delve into some resources and learn...

I'm in Minnesota. I'll let you know how my Tesla goes in a few weeks.

Marshall · Jan 3, 2020

Octodad said:
I'm in Minnesota. I'll let you know how my Tesla goes in a few weeks.

Also in Minnesota. If you can be kind enough to bump this thread in a few weeks, it'd be very much appreciated.

PhoenixDawn · Jan 3, 2020

Octodad said:
I'm in Minnesota. I'll let you know how my Tesla goes in a few weeks.

That'd be awesome, here's hoping it goes well! That's definitely at the high end of the budget for me, but it really does seem like a complete package.

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

PhoenixDawn said:
That'd be awesome, here's hoping it goes well! That's definitely at the high end of the budget for me, but it really does seem like a complete package.

Totally. I don't mean to be weird, but once it gets settled feel free to PM me if you want to hear more details or ever see it in person (I'm in Minneapolis).

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

Marshall said:
Also in Minnesota. If you can be kind enough to bump this thread in a few weeks, it'd be very much appreciated.

Absolutely. Same offer to you as well.

Deleted member 39374 · Jan 3, 2020

Hieberrr said:
My dream of purchasing a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus has died. A dream that was very short lived for sure.

All in, an SR+ would have been approx $58K-$60K CAD, which definitely puts it into the luxury car range. I can't fathom being able to finance a purchase that large with a mortgage already on my tab and plans to start a family soon.

While there are fuel cost savings with an SR+ (and other EVs in general), the upfront cost of these vehicles is outrageous. Plus, since I only have a front parking pad, I'd likely need to install a NEMA 14-50 plug to get any decent charging speeds.

Gahh... maybe one day.

Have you considered the special order Canada only Model 3 that has a smaller battery for around 40-45k (IIRC)? If youre charging at home you can probably pull it off. Also keep in mind there might be cash rebates in your region too. Dont give up the dream!

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

Hieberrr said:
My dream of purchasing a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus has died. A dream that was very short lived for sure.

All in, an SR+ would have been approx $58K-$60K CAD, which definitely puts it into the luxury car range. I can't fathom being able to finance a purchase that large with a mortgage already on my tab and plans to start a family soon.

Is that how much it is in Canada? Does that include the federal rebate?

Yeesh, I was hoping to get one maybe next year but that sucks.

Cheapest car is the Ioniq, it's $37K CAD. Everything else is like $42-44K from what I've seen.

I'll probably get something used.

Deleted member 25834 · Jan 3, 2020

Polymerization said:
Have you considered the special order Canada only Model 3 that has a smaller battery for around 40-45k (IIRC)? If youre charging at home you can probably pull it off. Also keep in mind there might be cash rebates in your region too. Dont give up the dream!

I've considered it, but $45K for ~150KM of range just doesn't make sense. Plus, it seems like Tesla is not offering software unlocks for the battery/range. Even if they did, it's a couple of more Gs and would bring the price close to $50K.

Mark · Jan 3, 2020

Jzeero said:
So what's the best deal for someone who's not rich but still wants an EV because their car is about to hit 200K miles?

Let us know what you decide on. I'm in the same boat.

turbobrick · Jan 3, 2020

Quote said:
Creaks are my biggest complaint about my M3, but that's because my last few cars were BMWs.

I drive other cars around this price range and higher pretty regularly and I'm always so happy to drive my M3 again.

Abbreviating model 3 to M3 in the same sentence mentioning BMW's is an odd choice.

Ryno23 said:
My December 2019 build is damn near flawless, couldn't be more happy with it.

Unbelievable lol. Also Nissan seems to be following the Toyota strategy of doubling down on Hybrids... Pretty sad considering how early they were with the Leaf

I would sure hope a 1 month old car would be fine.

Yeah, the Leaf was basically the first "affordable" electric car for the average person. Surprised they haven't branched out. They probably see more profits in hybrids would be my guess, and I'd assume that they're easier to sell to the average person since you don't have to worry about charging.

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

turbobrick said:
Yeah, the Leaf was basically the first "affordable" electric car for the average person. Surprised they haven't branched out. They probably see more profits in hybrids would be my guess, and I'd assume that they're easier to sell to the average person since you don't have to worry about charging.

There's something about Japanese government incentives and hydrogen. Every Japanese car maker is reluctantly doing EVs and I guess Nissan is doing the same as Ghosn is out.

They're all betting on hydrogen fuel in the long run.

turbobrick · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
There's something about Japanese government incentives and hydrogen. Every Japanese car maker is reluctantly doing EVs and I guess Nissan is doing the same as Ghosn is out.

They're all betting on hydrogen fuel in the long run.

Well, there are advantages to hydrogen. From a user perspective, its no different than an ICE car, in that you spend 5 minutes filling it up at a station for 250 - 300 miles of range. The downside is the current filling station infrastructure, which in the future could just be added to current gas stations, and of course the generation of hydrogen and its transportation. I can see why they're investing in it. Just like battery powered electric cars, there's positives and negatives.

Deleted member 39374 · Jan 3, 2020

Jzeero said:
So what's the best deal for someone who's not rich but still wants an EV because their car is about to hit 200K miles?

Mark said:
Let us know what you decide on. I'm in the same boat.

These are my favorite budget options:
used: 2017-2018 BMW i3, preferably a dealer CPO car (120 miles range + 80 gas = ~200 miles total) or 2016+ prius prime (not really an EV but close enough)
new: 2019 BMW i3 (they lease these for cheap, 150 miles range + 80 battery = ~230 miles total), nissan leaf e+, fiat 500 e (these are dirt cheap, i see them lease for like 90/month lmao), or the $35K special order Model 3 (210 miles range, no autopilot)

AVOID: 2012-2014 used model S for ~$35K (rampant QC issues), 2014-2016 bmw i3 (only 80 miles range), any used nissan leaf (battery isn't properly cooled, so the rated range drops FAST like an old smartphone)

Hieberrr said:
I've considered it, but $45K for ~150KM of range just doesn't make sense. Plus, it seems like Tesla is not offering software unlocks for the battery/range. Even if they did, it's a couple of more Gs and would bring the price close to $50K.

True. The car only exists so Tesla can qualify for the rebate program haha

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

turbobrick said:
Well, there are advantages to hydrogen. From a user perspective, its no different than an ICE car, in that you spend 5 minutes filling it up at a station for 250 - 300 miles of range

But it's more expensive. And for a lot of people the charging time is 0 as the car charges while you sleep or work. I've run into many people who owned an EV for many months before needing a fast charger.

EVs are more like a cellphone than an ICE car.

As for Japan, given their geography, making renewable electricity doesn't sound possible and they're not big fans of nuclear power I imagine.

https://amp.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5

The hydrogen vision published by Japan's ministry of economy, trade and industry is expansive. It starts with brown coal in Australia, which will be gasified to produce low-cost hydrogen, with the carbon pumped back underground.

The hydrogen will then be shipped to Japan on vast tankers and distributed to a nationwide network of filling stations. Finally, it will be pumped into cars, buses and trucks, all equipped with affordable fuel cells to convert the hydrogen into electricity to power their wheels.

turbobrick · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
But it's more expensive. And for a lot of people the charging time is 0 as the car charges while you sleep or work. I've run into many people who owned an EV for many months before needing a fast charger.

EVs are more like a cellphone than an ICE car.

As for Japan, given their geography, making renewable electricity doesn't sound possible and they're not big fans of nuclear power I imagine.

https://amp.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5

I mean, I get that most people would just charge at home. Though its not always an options, like if you live in an apartment. The main benefit I was going for, is that its no different than what people do now. Drive around until the tank gets low, the pull into a station and fill it up in a few minutes.

Deleted member 2652 · Jan 3, 2020

turbobrick said:
Abbreviating model 3 to M3 in the same sentence mentioning BMW's is an odd choice.

Yet you deciphered my post regardless. Congrats.

Failburger · Jan 3, 2020

M3 is old news, M3 is the hotness

Rade · Jan 3, 2020

Excellent-2019-Skoda-VISION-IV-Concept-33-For-Auto-Design-Ideas-with-2019-Skoda-VISION-IV-Concept.jpg

Skoda's Vision iV

turbobrick · Jan 3, 2020

Quote said:
Yet you deciphered my post regardless. Congrats.

I know. Still don't like it though.

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

turbobrick said:
I mean, I get that most people would just charge at home. Though its not always an options, like if you live in an apartment. The main benefit I was going for, is that its no different than what people do now. Drive around until the tank gets low, the pull into a station and fill it up in a few minutes.

Yeah I understand, I just don't think it's a very big deal. Charging will get faster and more chargers will get installed in residential and workplace parking areas.

All the puff pieces in the MSM on EVs talk how it takes 5 minutes to fill up your tank vs. 30 minutes+ for an EV and they make it sound you're going to spend hours a week standing around charging.

captive · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
Yeah I understand, I just don't think it's a very big deal. Charging will get faster and more chargers will get installed in residential and workplace parking areas.

All the puff pieces in the MSM on EVs talk how it takes 5 minutes to fill up your tank vs. 30 minutes+ for an EV and they make it sound you're going to spend hours a week standing around charging.

the hand wringing around charging is really much a do about nothing, especially after you actually, you know, own one.

We drive to Austin several times a year and we just super charge while we take the kids to go potty and get a snack.

Idunno i just think these people that need to drive 1000 miles in one day only stopping once and peeing in a bottle while driving are ridiculous edge cases.

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

captive said:
the hand wringing around charging is really much a do about nothing, especially after you actually, you know, own one.

We drive to Austin several times a year and we just super charge while we take the kids to go potty and get a snack.

Idunno i just think these people that need to drive 1000 miles in one day only stopping once and peeing in a bottle while driving are ridiculous edge cases.

I agree. We drive home to see older members of our family maybe once a year. It's a 12 hour drive or so. We used to try to go as fast as possible with no breaks. Now, we leave early and just take a few 20-40 minute stops at nicer areas and it's so much better. Get there in 13 hours instead or so, but I'm so much more sane.

And agin, this is once a year.

turbobrick · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
Yeah I understand, I just don't think it's a very big deal. Charging will get faster and more chargers will get installed in residential and workplace parking areas.

All the puff pieces in the MSM on EVs talk how it takes 5 minutes to fill up your tank vs. 30 minutes+ for an EV and they make it sound you're going to spend hours a week standing around charging.

I guess my point is that it isn't a big deal for early adopters, who are into electric cars. Because it isn't that much of a change in your daily habits.

However, I believe for mass adoption, it needs to be as simple as a transition as possible, and that's where I was saying hydrogen has the advantage. The average car buyer who doesn't give a shit about what they drive, doesn't have to do anything different from what they're used to.

The technology is still young, and as it advances it will bring more people in. Faster charging and longer range out of smaller batteries is what will bring in the masses.

captive said:
the hand wringing around charging is really much a do about nothing, especially after you actually, you know, own one.

We drive to Austin several times a year and we just super charge while we take the kids to go potty and get a snack.

I dunno I just think these people that need to drive 1000 miles in one day only stopping once and peeing in a bottle while driving are ridiculous edge cases.

I don't think the average car buyer actually thinks about what they need vs what they want. The people who don't buy electric cars due to range because they make 1 long trip a year are just like the people who buy a giant 7 seat SUV for the few times they actually haul that many people, or need an AWD car because they get snow 2 days a year.

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

turbobrick said:
I guess my point is that it isn't a big deal for early adopters, who are into electric cars. Because it isn't that much of a change in your daily habits

But it is a change in routine. Almost every early adopter drove an ICE car before. They just have the money to be an early adopter. If they can do it others can, biggest barrier is price right now. Once EVs reach price parity with ICE it's gonna take off.

It's not a massive problem if your daily driving is less than the range of the car. Mostly for urban drivers now.

It's only a real problem for people who can't charge at home/work or rack up a lot of miles daily.

I tell people how much I save not buying gas and that gets them all interested, I might have indirectly sold a few.

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
But it is a change in routine. Almost every early adopter drove an ICE car before. They just have the money to be an early adopter. If they can do it others can, biggest barrier is price right now. Once EVs reach price parity with ICE it's gonna take off.

It's not a massive problem if your daily driving is less than the range of the car. Mostly for urban drivers now.

It's only a real problem for people who can't charge at home/work or rack up a lot of miles daily.

I tell people how much I save not buying gas and that gets them all interested, I might have indirectly sold a few.

I gotta say, despite the impact on battery life, nothing sold me on the idea of EV home charging like comparing it to pumping gas at -15 degrees with the stupid gas station tv telling ads at me.

Kernel · Jan 3, 2020

Octodad said:
I gotta say, despite the impact on battery life, nothing sold me on the idea of EV home charging like comparing it to pumping gas at -15 degrees with the stupid gas station tv telling ads at me.

Yeah pumping gas is a lot of fun, never mind the price.

There's no little impact on battery life, just charge to 80%(unless you need more) if you really want to maximize battery life.

Deleted member 8741 · Jan 3, 2020

Kernel said:
Yeah pumping gas is a lot of fun, never mind the price.

There's no little impact on battery life, just charge to 80%(unless you need more) if you really want to maximize battery life.

I shoulda said battery efficiency. Thank you for the reminder though!

Kernel · Jan 5, 2020

If anyone is interested abetterrouteplanner.com finally has an app for Android and iOS! Search for ABRP.

Works really well. Select your EV and your trip and it will tell you where to stop for a charge and how long you need to charge there. It's a pretty conservative estimate.

Even if you don't have an EV but are considering getting one, punch in your commute or any long trips you take and see if it's even possible and how long it will take due to charge stops.

Great tool.

UnderNewOwnership · Jan 5, 2020

Kernel said:
https://amp.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5

*Sniff sniff*

I love the smell of greenwashing in the morning.
Unless the laws of thermodynamics have changed, coal gasification is both just as horribly polluting and more inefficient than actually burning the bloody thing for power.
When powering an electric vehicle via direct intake electricity the chain goes: coal -> pulverizer -> power plant -> transformer -> lines -> transformer -> battery -> motor
When powering an electric vehicle via fuel cell the chain goes: coal -> pulverizer -> gasifier -> compressor -> primary storage -> (sea, rail, road) transport -> secondary storage -> tank -> fuel cell -> motor
The second path is less efficient in several steps of the chain, and produces secondary pollution as a bonus (from transport vehicles, outgassing from overpressure valves, evaporative losses, the occasional high-energy accident).
It would be more efficient and ironically slightly less polluting if the coal were shipped to Japan and burnt in cogenerative power stations, using the electricity to charge BEVs (and the steam for other applications).
But it seems the Japanese government is intent on grasping the coal turd by its clean end.

Ryno23 · Jan 5, 2020

Handy updated chart of epa range, starting price, efficiency etc of all available EVs in US market

Deleted member 6215 · Jan 8, 2020

Is Nissan not releasing a 2020 model year Leaf, or do they have a different schedule than other manufacturers? (Or maybe I'm just asleep at the wheel and missed an announcement?)

Shirosaki · Jan 8, 2020

I wonder why that range is listing 299 for a Tesla Model 3 Performance with 20" rims. Mine says 308 is what to expect after a full charge. Is it underrated?

Ryno23 · Jan 10, 2020

fester said:
Is Nissan not releasing a 2020 model year Leaf, or do they have a different schedule than other manufacturers? (Or maybe I'm just asleep at the wheel and missed an announcement?)

https://electrek.co/2020/01/10/nissan-2020-leaf-pricing-features/

This was just announced today I guess

DrEvil · Jan 10, 2020

Shirosaki said:
I wonder why that range is listing 299 for a Tesla Model 3 Performance with 20" rims. Mine says 308 is what to expect after a full charge. Is it underrated?

EPA estimates v. real world. Total range is affected by driving style and climate, so that 308 is based on controlled tests.

On a full charge, mine gets 524km according to the display, but it's more like 495-500 in reality.

CelestialAtom · Jan 10, 2020

Now, for someone like me that has always had used Hondas and Toyotas, my vehicles always make it to around 300,000 since I take excellent care of them, but I am curious as to the longevity and durability of electric cars for making that kind of mileage without breaking down much. I want to jump to EV's so bad, but I'm not wealthy by any means ($34K/year), but I did see some of the suggestions above and am incredibly thankful for those of you who answered that OP. When it comes to the cheaper EV's like the Nissan Leaf, how much mileage can you get on them before they starting crapping out? I know it's rumored that Tesla's last an incredibly long time due to very few moving component, but I didn't know if the cheaper alternatives were built in a similar fashion?

turbobrick · Jan 10, 2020

ShadowKingpin said:
Now, for someone like me that has always had used Hondas and Toyotas, my vehicles always make it to around 300,000 since I take excellent care of them, but I am curious as to the longevity and durability of electric cars for making that kind of mileage without breaking down much. I want to jump to EV's so bad, but I'm not wealthy by any means ($34K/year), but I did see some of the suggestions above and am incredibly thankful for those of you who answered that OP. When it comes to the cheaper EV's like the Nissan Leaf, how much mileage can you get on them before they starting crapping out? I know it's rumored that Tesla's last an incredibly long time due to very few moving component, but I didn't know if the cheaper alternatives were built in a similar fashion?

Well, its true that's drivetrain wise, electric cars have much less that would need replacing over time. Its the electronics and batteries that are going to be items that could fail over time.

You mention 300k miles, but just about all the electric cars on the market are so new its hard to tell which will be the longest lasting. Sure there's a small handful that have already done that, but its hard to say if that's the norm or an exception. Only time will tell. Also, since you say you take care of your cars, I'm sure you know a car will last as long as you keep maintaining it.

If you're not in a hurry, its probably better to wait a few years. Prices will keep going down and the technology will continue to improve. With all the new electric cars that are supposed to be coming out in the near future, it could mean more competitive pricing, and you might be able to get a better deal.

plagiarize · Jan 10, 2020

ShadowKingpin said:
Now, for someone like me that has always had used Hondas and Toyotas, my vehicles always make it to around 300,000 since I take excellent care of them, but I am curious as to the longevity and durability of electric cars for making that kind of mileage without breaking down much. I want to jump to EV's so bad, but I'm not wealthy by any means ($34K/year), but I did see some of the suggestions above and am incredibly thankful for those of you who answered that OP. When it comes to the cheaper EV's like the Nissan Leaf, how much mileage can you get on them before they starting crapping out? I know it's rumored that Tesla's last an incredibly long time due to very few moving component, but I didn't know if the cheaper alternatives were built in a similar fashion?

Early Leafs had batteries that didn't do well with heat, and didn't have active cooling, so I don't think many of those would have come close to 300,000 miles without major issues, which makes it hard to talk about long term life expectancy of stuff currently on the road. As far as publically available data, the best I know of is voltstats.net which lists metrics for gen 1 and gen 2 Chevy Volts, that owners have chosen to share with the site (the site pulls the data from On Star).

If we look at the EV miles driven of Gen 1 volts, based on vehicles still on the road, you've got a high water mark of something like this: https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1502
That Volt has done over 150,000 EV miles in 7+ years.

If anyone else has better info, I'd love to see it. The main question is battery degradation, but very few EVs are going to have pushed past 200,000 miles yet, let alone 300,000 to give us data points on how easy it is for an EV to reach those totals miles.

SteveMeister · Jan 10, 2020

My Bolt has over 80,000 miles on it. I haven't noticed any battery degradation. I've replaced the tires, had it in to look at a code it was complaining about, but that's it. The brakes are perfect since I barely use them due to regenerative braking. Service interval is essentially "rotate the tires every 10,000 miles and replace the cabin air filter a bit less often."
Runs as perfectly as when I got it 3 years ago.

Kernel · Jan 10, 2020

ShadowKingpin said:
When it comes to the cheaper EV's like the Nissan Leaf, how much mileage can you get on them before they starting crapping out? I know it's rumored that Tesla's last an incredibly long time due to very few moving component, but I didn't know if the cheaper alternatives were built in a similar fashion?

All EVs should last a long time due to few moving parts and less wear and tear. I haven't heard of any major issues so far but they are relatively new.

The main issue is battery degradation. The Leaf is particularly notorious as it has no active cooling so people who live in hot climates or who rapid charge a lot saw their battery capacity shrink rapidly. They improved it in 2013 years onwards but I think it's still a problem due to no cooling.

There's a guide here on the Leaf that tells you what to watch for if you're interested. It's a good car otherwise if you live more up north (and you don't mind how it looks).

It's not much of an issue for newer cars. But I'd find out about the battery warranty degradation coverage(or lack thereof) before buying a used one. There's usually a way install an OBD device and get the health of the battery. Something a dealer or private seller will likely not know.

plagiarize said:
If anyone else has better info, I'd love to see it. The main question is battery degradation, but very few EVs are going to have pushed past 200,000 miles yet, let alone 300,000 to give us data points on how easy it is for an EV to reach those totals miles

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...ses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers?format=amp

In terms of battery degradation, I'd say Tesla is the best right now.

plagiarize · Jan 10, 2020

Kernel said:
All EVs will should last a long time due to few moving parts and less wear and tear. I haven't heard of any major issues so far but they are relatively new.

The main issue is battery degradation. The Leaf is particularly notorious as it has no active cooling so people who live in hot climates or who rapid charge a lot saw their battery capacity shrink rapidly. They improved it in 2013 years onwards but I think it's still a problem due to no cooling.

There's a guide here on the Leaf that tells you what to watch for if you're interested. It's a good car otherwise if you live more up north (and you don't mind how it looks).

It's not much of an issue for newer cars. But I'd find out about the battery warranty coverage before buying a used one. There's usually a way install an OBD device and get the health of the battery. Something a dealer or private seller will likely not know.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...ses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers?format=amp

In terms of battery degradation, I'd say Tesla is the best right now.

That Tesla is on its third battery, for the record.

turbobrick · Jan 10, 2020

plagiarize said:
Early Leafs had batteries that didn't do well with heat, and didn't have active cooling, so I don't think many of those would have come close to 300,000 miles without major issues, which makes it hard to talk about long term life expectancy of stuff currently on the road. As far as publically available data, the best I know of is voltstats.net which lists metrics for gen 1 and gen 2 Chevy Volts, that owners have chosen to share with the site (the site pulls the data from On Star).

If we look at the EV miles driven of Gen 1 volts, based on vehicles still on the road, you've got a high water mark of something like this: https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1502
That Volt has done over 150,000 EV miles in 7+ years.

If anyone else has better info, I'd love to see it. The main question is battery degradation, but very few EVs are going to have pushed past 200,000 miles yet, let alone 300,000 to give us data points on how easy it is for an EV to reach those totals miles.

Also this. If you live in any kind of warm climate, the leaf with its non active cooled batteries isn't going to be a good option. Now Nissan claims that their new batteries in the current models are better, but I'm still skeptical until I see the receipts. Its a shame because the Leaf is a nice car, I just wouldn't get one. Same with the VW e-golf if its still being made.

Shirosaki · Jan 10, 2020

DrEvil said:
EPA estimates v. real world. Total range is affected by driving style and climate, so that 308 is based on controlled tests.

On a full charge, mine gets 524km according to the display, but it's more like 495-500 in reality.

Thank you for explaining that! That helps! Granted it's not like I'll ever let it get down to sub 20% with how I drive, but it is nice having the extra range if needed.

plagiarize · Jan 10, 2020

Shirosaki said:
Thank you for explaining that! That helps! Granted it's not like I'll ever let it get down to sub 20% with how I drive, but it is nice having the extra range if needed.

EPA estimates are just that. My EV beats the EPA estimates on almost everything but the coldest days of the year, but your mileage (literally) will vary with air temps, cruising speed, elevation change, and driving habits (hard acceleration vs gradual).

Kernel · Jan 10, 2020

plagiarize said:
That Tesla is on its third battery, for the record.

All under warranty and these guys are pretty harsh on the batteries. I believe they operate a car service between Las Vegas and LA.

So pretty much a worst case scenario. Most people won't abuse their car like that.

I doubt other manufacturers would do better under such conditions.

High Voltage Battery: The Model S has had its high voltage battery replaced twice under warranty at 194,000 and 324,000 miles. Battery degradation over the course of the first 194,000 miles was ~6% with multiple supercharges a day to 95-100%, instead of the recommended 90-95%. Between 194,000 and 324,000 miles Tesloop experienced battery degradation of ~22% (see below for details).

That's pretty damn good imo.

Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0

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