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Elite Dangerous: Horizons |OT| Just scratching the surface
- Thread starter Frontieruk
- Start date
I lost a lot of interest in carriers.
They seem like a huge credit sink, which is fine, but so little is offered in return so I don't see a reason why anyone would use them.
They seem like a huge credit sink, which is fine, but so little is offered in return so I don't see a reason why anyone would use them.
Yep.
Originally there were three variants of squadron carriers: combat, mining/trading, and explorer. What we got are personal carriers for individuals, nut they lost the role archetypes. Now you just outfit them same as ships with job modules. HOWEVER, there is no longer an exploration purpose at all. No Stellar Cartography, explorers can't sell data, they have no real role for deep space flying at all anymore.
It's worse than it was two years ago.
I'm extremely underwhelmed.
I read up on the details of carriers....oooooooooooooooooooooof
Any potential interest I had completely deflated. They seem objectively worse than stations in every way other than the fact that you can take them anywhere you want, but doing that requires you to farm a mineral that you don't know how rare it will be, and I'm sure it will be pretty rare or there will be something that wastes your time in order to get it. FD is so disconnected from the community on this stuff when they keep doing this. The fact that you can't even get Universal Cartographics at the carrier says A LOT because they actually want to stop you from making money too fast off exploration. Having a fee deducted from bounty vouchers, combat bonds, and trade dividends is utterly fucked.
And then you have it costing 5 billion with a 10 million/week upkeep, that it sounds like you have to pay manually. I'm just imagining how much debt you go into if you go on vacation or something, or if you're unable to play for to long, there goes your carrier.
Leave it to FD to go from "Oh this might be cool" to being completely uninterested in it.
Any potential interest I had completely deflated. They seem objectively worse than stations in every way other than the fact that you can take them anywhere you want, but doing that requires you to farm a mineral that you don't know how rare it will be, and I'm sure it will be pretty rare or there will be something that wastes your time in order to get it. FD is so disconnected from the community on this stuff when they keep doing this. The fact that you can't even get Universal Cartographics at the carrier says A LOT because they actually want to stop you from making money too fast off exploration. Having a fee deducted from bounty vouchers, combat bonds, and trade dividends is utterly fucked.
And then you have it costing 5 billion with a 10 million/week upkeep, that it sounds like you have to pay manually. I'm just imagining how much debt you go into if you go on vacation or something, or if you're unable to play for to long, there goes your carrier.
Leave it to FD to go from "Oh this might be cool" to being completely uninterested in it.
I would be unsurprised if they add in UC due to "fan demand". It's just basically a space station with a slightly modified UI presumably they had to take out the UC functionality in the first place. It seems like a weird amount of Dev time to spend on something that is intentionally only for a small section of the playerbase. Hopefully it ties into something in the next named expansion (though given how nearly every subsystem in the game is weirdly siloed off I dont have much hope for that)
Yeah, not convinced I want to save up for one now. As a solo player with a penchant for exploration there are just to many caveats to make one worthwhile with practically no real benefit.
I think FCs will make for interesting support and exploration options for squadrons and player groups, but yeah, lots of stuff just reads like "meh..." when it could have been something so dramatic and cool.
One thing that disappoints me is the lack of apparent effect they'll have on the existing economy and - perhaps more importantly - BGS.
It would have added a whole new strategic layer to have these "moving starports" roll in and upset the sway of income, security, or influence in a certain system. I realise such a decision would probably have caused a number of balancing issues, but it would have been a bold, much respected move imo.
One thing that disappoints me is the lack of apparent effect they'll have on the existing economy and - perhaps more importantly - BGS.
It would have added a whole new strategic layer to have these "moving starports" roll in and upset the sway of income, security, or influence in a certain system. I realise such a decision would probably have caused a number of balancing issues, but it would have been a bold, much respected move imo.
Wlhat support do you think FC's provide for exploration? Repairs? Because AFMU's and repair limpets do that already.
They cannot repair the powerplant though, FC's will be able to do that.
Also I would not be surprised if Universal Cartographics does become an available option (they did say there are features they haven't talked about yet, so it could already be in there) at some point. There really isn't any reason it shouldn't be available.
You think people are going to haul a carrier across the galaxy just for that? I don't recall ever having any problems with my power plant on my jaunts into the black. The most worried I ever got on my last trip to SagA* was my hull and canopy, and I carry limpets now that can fix that. And I can sythesize more limpets any time I need them. The AFM can fix everything else (and I carry a second smaller AFM to fix the first one).
I haven't done much exploration myself, but how often do you actually get in a situation where you need your powerplant repaired when on a long expedition? Unless you're in thargoid territory are you actually getting interdicted or attacked by anyone? I would think the most you have to worry about is potential heat damage from jumping into a system with two white dwarfs side by side.
You never have to repair the powerplant unless:
- you collide with something and break your shield or don't have one
- you overheat if you're not careful enough near stars when fuel scooping.
I'm still way out (60 K ly) from the bubble, went to Beagle Point during last Distant Worlds 2 expedition, and I'm at 100% on everything. I only have to repair the FSD from time to time as overcharging it wears it a bit.
That's what I figured.
I definitely won't be investing in a fleet carrier.
What sucks the most is that the community CHOSE to have ship transfer have both a fee and a wait time, which are exorbitant IMO, and for those that don't want to deal with that and wanted this as a solution....this is far worse.
Apparently Fleet Carriers will be full price in the beta and Fdev isnt giving any bonus cash or reduced price...for the beta, to test the thing a lot of potential beta testers cant afford. Seems like a silly decision https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/fvym6o/fleet_carriers_in_beta_will_cost_5billion/
So a beta where like 3 people can actually beta test then....cooool.
The only reason I would consider buying a FC now is so that I can live as a hermit in the one system that I always wanted to live in but could not because the station in the system does not have ship storage facilities.
I don't have enough money to buy such a ship right now, but I assume I could earn it if I started working towards it right now using the current big-money hustles. But IDK. This isn't the excuse I was hoping for to jump back into ED. I didn't want to become the CEO of a business; I just wanted a mobile platform of my own to launch my ships from at my leisure. I don't need an economy to manage and a passive income to deal with.
If I could just get a space carrier that just had ship storage, restock and repair facilities for $1.5-2 bill + crew taxes, I would have been very happy. What they came up with is just wholly unnecessary for me and I'm disappointed there aren't sizes/tiers of FC available.
Such a move would feel like little more than antipathy towards their player base if true.
Surely not.
I don't have enough money to buy such a ship right now, but I assume I could earn it if I started working towards it right now using the current big-money hustles. But IDK. This isn't the excuse I was hoping for to jump back into ED. I didn't want to become the CEO of a business; I just wanted a mobile platform of my own to launch my ships from at my leisure. I don't need an economy to manage and a passive income to deal with.
If I could just get a space carrier that just had ship storage, restock and repair facilities for $1.5-2 bill + crew taxes, I would have been very happy. What they came up with is just wholly unnecessary for me and I'm disappointed there aren't sizes/tiers of FC available.
...why would they do this? They've never done so before in any beta release ever.
Such a move would feel like little more than antipathy towards their player base if true.
Surely not.
For one thing, the fact that you can carry a whole fleet of exploration-fitted ships out 500 ly jumps at a time feels quite significant. In theory you'll be able to get outside the bubble quicker, and even reach parts of the galaxy that have yet to be chartered.
Having a hub or a safe haven out in the black gives great peace-of-mind, as does being able to transport all that carto data back into civilisation with far less risk.
With the appropriate planning and investment, FCs are a great boon to explorers.
Judging by the feedback from the majority of the exploration community they will not be a boon to explorers. They don't have any real utility out in deep space, in fact the upkeep and very slow travel speed coupled with the constant requirement to mine fuel makes carriers a large detriment to explorers.
Having UC on board would provide a huge benefit that just might make carrying the ball and chain of a carrier out into the black.
But hey, I look forward to you flying one out into deep space and telling us how it goes!
Is there still no reason for explorers to land on planets?
I think maybe they're in a holding pattern until they can actually figure out atmospheric planet surface exploration.
Couldn't they just like, do it in stages or something? It'd be dope if they even just got us to be able to land on lifeless atmospheric planets, which is already like 99% of them.
Wait what happened? I haven't booted this game up in a year-plus. Is that just for fleet carriers or did they take exploration stuff away from the game entirely?
absolutely not.
FC's require 2 hours between jumps and at some point (regardless of how much fuel you leave with) will require hours of farming fuel materials between jumps. You could make it all the way to Colonia in about 5 hours right now with a well-equipped exploration vessel.
There is no way you could do more exploring and charting with a FC in tow than you could with your DbE/AspE.
I was really hoping they would address systems with stuff a long way away from the star you come in at, but I get that that's a pie in the sky dream. I took a mission yesterday not realizing it was one of those, and saw it was 350k Ls from the star. I would have done it last night but went to sleep instead. I'll do it tonight. I don't get why they won't do a subsystem jump or something, aka something people will actually use. It's not like you're going to get interdicted when you're going 300c+, so what you're doing is sitting there watching YouTube or something on your other monitor until you get close enough where you have to pay attention.
Yeah, I might understand this pricing if the entire squadron could pitch in for it. But there's no way to trade money with other players (not even anything like "Drop x credits" and have someone else pick them up), so of course one person has to save up all this themselves. It's rather disappointing.
I'm gonna check out this video, but are there any impressions of the beta from people in this thread? I might check out the beta tonight (obviously checking just about everything but fleet carriers, lol)
Reading the full patch notes...I"m glad there's bug fixes, particularly conflict zones, but it's kind of disappointing that there is NOTHING ELSE new at all other than fleet carriers. Focus so much on a feature that the upper 1% of the population will actually be able to use.
According to that ObsidianAnt video, if you have all the services, upkeep is 147 mil a week....Shipyard is 42 million a week.
I don't mind the idea of upkeep costs, but the prices as they are now are insane. If it started at 2 and maxed out at 20 mil it would be fine.
They just need to allow squadrons to crowdfund it.
FD would know a lot about Kickstarter, that's how we're playing this game today.
Also apparently they can't actually carry fleets by default it requires a 500K upgrade? Releasing content for a tiny percentage of your audience is annoying when you're regularly releasing content but it seems almost self destructive to do it when youve been releasing nothing.
I really hope whatever the big 2020 update they were talking about is something everyone can use and not just the upper 1%.
Posted this over on the forums:
It appears I've misunderstood the numbers and the modules required for basic things (like a Fleet carrier being able to actually carry a fleet by default). My actual costs would appear to be:
$106 million credits/week, or roughly $5.5 billion annually after the initial $5 billion investment.
I'll have a look at the numbers and see how much invested time it would require me to get to say...$25-$30 billion credits. But I'm going to be honest: these features feel far too expensive for what feel like the basic function I would want (the ability to store all of my ships, move between them as I please, outfit them as needed, rearm and repair as needed).
My only real interest here in the FC as a concept was that it would enable me to live near a Neutron star that currently has a luxury station nearby but does not have a shipyard, so I cannot call the system home. I would have considered it my retirement home. Maybe it can be still. I just don't know if the time needed to farm an additional $20 billion above what I currently have is worth it to live there. I have no other purpose for a FC. I'm not interested in owning a market. I'm not interested in player commerce. So why is this included by default but not a shipyard? Some unexpected twists and turns here.
As I've said before I understand the prices are meant to prevent players going for a "fully kitted" ship. This way people have to make hard choices about what they want their ship to be or do. But I think that would have been done more elegantly by simply having a few designed VARIANTS of FC. A trade FC...an exploration FC...a combat FC...a trade FC. Same base price but would look physically different from one another and would have a certain set of modules installed by default. In such a scenario, adding modules that go beyond that the intended purpose of the FC version you purchased would become very expensive (or maybe some modules wouldn't have been available at all). That would have provided the same experience without the negative feeling of it all. Then maybe you introduce an all-purpose FC that is more expensive to own and operate but has access to all modules. The Rolls Royce model for the people who really want to peacock or who want the ultimate flexibility and are willing to pay for it.
I understand it would have taken more resources to design multiple variants of these things, but let's be honest: player interaction with them beyond flying around them and using the landing pads is minimal at best. It's not like Star Citizen where players expect to be able to walk around each compartment, bulkhead, and bathroom on the ship, right? Given the time the FC project has taken, it feels like this would have been the way to go. It would have brought focus and intentionality to which FC you purchased and module upgrade path you could take. It would have added additional character to each FC in the same way different looking orbitals (interior and exterior) enrich the overall experience of flying.
It appears I've misunderstood the numbers and the modules required for basic things (like a Fleet carrier being able to actually carry a fleet by default). My actual costs would appear to be:
$106 million credits/week, or roughly $5.5 billion annually after the initial $5 billion investment.
I'll have a look at the numbers and see how much invested time it would require me to get to say...$25-$30 billion credits. But I'm going to be honest: these features feel far too expensive for what feel like the basic function I would want (the ability to store all of my ships, move between them as I please, outfit them as needed, rearm and repair as needed).
My only real interest here in the FC as a concept was that it would enable me to live near a Neutron star that currently has a luxury station nearby but does not have a shipyard, so I cannot call the system home. I would have considered it my retirement home. Maybe it can be still. I just don't know if the time needed to farm an additional $20 billion above what I currently have is worth it to live there. I have no other purpose for a FC. I'm not interested in owning a market. I'm not interested in player commerce. So why is this included by default but not a shipyard? Some unexpected twists and turns here.
As I've said before I understand the prices are meant to prevent players going for a "fully kitted" ship. This way people have to make hard choices about what they want their ship to be or do. But I think that would have been done more elegantly by simply having a few designed VARIANTS of FC. A trade FC...an exploration FC...a combat FC...a trade FC. Same base price but would look physically different from one another and would have a certain set of modules installed by default. In such a scenario, adding modules that go beyond that the intended purpose of the FC version you purchased would become very expensive (or maybe some modules wouldn't have been available at all). That would have provided the same experience without the negative feeling of it all. Then maybe you introduce an all-purpose FC that is more expensive to own and operate but has access to all modules. The Rolls Royce model for the people who really want to peacock or who want the ultimate flexibility and are willing to pay for it.
I understand it would have taken more resources to design multiple variants of these things, but let's be honest: player interaction with them beyond flying around them and using the landing pads is minimal at best. It's not like Star Citizen where players expect to be able to walk around each compartment, bulkhead, and bathroom on the ship, right? Given the time the FC project has taken, it feels like this would have been the way to go. It would have brought focus and intentionality to which FC you purchased and module upgrade path you could take. It would have added additional character to each FC in the same way different looking orbitals (interior and exterior) enrich the overall experience of flying.
I honestly have no idea what the hell Frontier was thinking for like 90% of the decisions they have made surrounding these Fleet Carriers.
As a longtime player this is the first time I have felt like Frontier is completely and utterly out of touch with it's community.
As a longtime player this is the first time I have felt like Frontier is completely and utterly out of touch with it's community.
Yep, I feel like this could be viable by tweaking the numbers and/or making it crowdfundable. There is no player to player credit transfer in the game right now. I get why FD doesn't want to do player to player credit transfer (even if I don't agree with the reasoning), but I think for something as big as fleet carriers, they should make crowdfunding an option. They have this squadron system that would be perfect to use in tandem with crowdfunding fleet carriers. They can make it work like Kickstarter...FD would know a lot about Kickstarter, it's how we are even playing this thing today. A squadron leader/member can call for funding of a Fleet Carrier, and set their funding goal (based on how much they want to contribute, so if the leader contributes 1 billion, they ask for 4 billion from everyone else). Everyone else "pledges" credits and it will "take" them from their account when they pledge them, but if the goal is not met or cancelled by the creator, then they get their credits back. This way leaders can't scam people. Contributors would also get access to the Fleet Carrier of course, as well as the squadron if the leader wants to open it up to them.
Frontier seems to not want everyone and their mother to have Fleet Carriers, which I understand because they don't want system maps to get super busy. Watching some videos, I can see a ton of people have Fleet Carriers in the same system where they bought them, and that's at full price. However the fact that the 5 billion has to be put forth by ONE PERSON, and most of the upkeep costs have to be put forth by that same person, make these really awful. Regardless of that, there stands the fact that these are still by and large rather useless for professions that aren't exploration. They technically work tor trade and combat, but they have major weaknesses that utterly cripple them for those professions.
Combat
- Fee is deducted for combat bonds and bounty vouchers
- No missions come from there or are turned in there
Trade
- Trade dividends have a fee deducted
- The leader has to run the commodities market
- no missions (trade or smuggling) will ever point to them
For these reasons, there's almost no reason not to use regular stations over them. You are rarely doing any of the above tasks outside the bubble, so 90% of the time, there is a station you can use. However they have a major issue for Exploration too: No Universal Cartographics. Explorers have a huge haul to turn in from expeditions, they can't turn them in there. However they can repair and refuel if needed, and that's about the only use they have. The need for repairs is pretty rare as the most you are dealing with is potential bad experiences on high gravity planets, or heat damage, which is still negligible. Even then you still have AFMs. You can restock your SRV if you lose it, but that's about it.
I like the idea of making specialized versions of FCs though, and I think that's another viable option to take for this. The fact that Fleet Carriers can't carry fleets out of the box really illustrates a lot of the problem right there.
I'm also disappointed that FD STILL won't work on features in the game that are more half-baked, instead adding more features that most people won't use. In the beta there are some QoL changes, one I really like where the restock/refuel/repair has shortcuts in the stations on the same menu that has Starport Servicers/Enter/Exit Hangar/Launch, so restocking is even faster now. Missions that take you to systems that have an objective 300k+ Ls away from the star you come in on are STILL a major issue. This does nothing other than waste the player's time. I play in VR and I actually bought OVRdrop and put on YouTube videos during these long supercruise times, or if I'm not playing in VR I sit there and play Animal Crossing while I just wait. If the game has come to the point where you just have to do something else to pass a long amount of time, there's something wrong with the game.
Powerplay doesn't really get any love anymore. There's no power related to passenger transport, or other features they have added since the inception of Powerplay. Multicrew still feels rather half-baked. There's plenty more issues to address with the game too, but FD just wants to add more features like Fleet Carriers that no one will use. I'd rather FD just delay the big 2020 expansion they have been talking up and refine the game's features, rather than add new ones that are gimped in some way, just like almost every feature they add. The last feature I can think of that was "good" across the board that they added was passenger missions.
Honestly I just want them to drastically cut the price, add universal cartographics, and add the option for NPC traffic. Because as it stands right now as a solo player there is literally no reason for me to own a Fleet Carrier even if I could somehow afford the damn thing in the first place.
In "completely pointless bullshit" news:
When you sell limpets on a Fleet Carrier they cost the default 101 cr. Jameson Memorial sells them for 91. Meaning it's possible to (very, very slowly) scam the Carriers bank.
When you sell limpets on a Fleet Carrier they cost the default 101 cr. Jameson Memorial sells them for 91. Meaning it's possible to (very, very slowly) scam the Carriers bank.
I get the impression that they're still concentrating on how they think people should play the game, versus how people actually play the game. They're developing it like it's an MMO, where literally every function must be done as a group, when the reality is that most players that I've come across (here and Reddit) play alone. Especially once you get outside the bubble, there's zero reason for grouping with other players.
They've even admitted that only a tiny fraction of players can even afford to buy one of these carriers, and I'd bet that an even tinier fraction is even interested in doing it. Sure, it's getting a lot of visibility in the beta, but I'd warrant you'll hardly ever see one in the real game once they're released. Makes me wonder how much dev time they actually spent on this, and then no one actually uses it.
Yeah if they don't change things I expect that to be the case.
The crazy thing is that if they had just kept the Fleet Carrier idea as the personal megaships that everyone was wanting they could have avoided all of this drama. People didn't want these giant mobile markets. They wanted their own megaships. They should have just made several different cookie cutter carriers. One for exploration. One for mining. One for combat. Etc etc. It would have been so much easier for everyone. It would have been easier for Frontier to develop seeing as everyone would have the same things. There wouldn't be any need to have all these upgrades, bundles and upkeep costs. Here is the Mining Carrier. This is what the Mining Carrier does. This is what it costs.
It could have been that easy. But instead they chose this hodgepodge mess of features and functions that nobody really asked for inside of a giant financially ruinous ship.
What a surprise they're adding UC due to "fan demand". Whatever genius came up with the idea of removing it just to add it back in deserves a slap. Even with the changes for me all this does is make the carriers feel a bit less shit. I could afford one but I don't see why I'd bother. The entire thing shows how out of touch the devs are and the changes just reflect that e.g. a spin up rather than a high spin down time. It's honestly just depressing looking at the stuff they come out with.
Yeah, I'm honestly shocked they not only listened but relented too. The changes look pretty spot on honestly, at least for exploration. I'm still not sure how anyone else will make use of them, but at least the upkeep isn't stupid ridiculous now.
Well done Frontier? O_o
I'm still perplexed how they went into beta like that though. The development disconnect is troubling.
Well done Frontier? O_o
I'm still perplexed how they went into beta like that though. The development disconnect is troubling.
It's not super ridiculous, but the upkeep is still a sticking point for me. Players shouldn't be able to permanently lose their carriers due to upkeep costs. Decommissioned? Sure. But they should be allowed to pay back to accrued debt and open then up again anytime they want. Either that or FDev needs to be able to fully refund the cost of the Carriers to the players.
Otherwise I still see upkeep as a figurative gun to the head of every player. "You better keep playing and keep paying or else you lose what you worked so hard to get". And that's not good game design. Players should be rewarded for working so hard not punished.
I'm glad they're listening to feedback, but carriers still don't appeal to me at all. I've seen the theory on reddit that they started at the ridiculous upkeep costs BECAUSE they knew people would hate it and then could scale back how much depending on the feedback.
I'm realizing the only reason I am actually playing at all anymore is to just take assassination missions. I don't really want to PvP just because millions of credits would constantly be at stake. CQC would be the place for that without the gambling of credits, but....actually finding a CQC match lol.
I really wish they wouldn't have abandoned CQC and could just flesh it out a bit more to attract people into playing it. Add a "medium" ship class including Vultures, FDLs, Pythons, etc. Add a large class for multicrewed Anacondas, Cutters, or Corvettes. Better yet, just add a mode where you can take your ship in the main game and fight other players in a CQC like environment, where nothing is at stake.
I'm realizing the only reason I am actually playing at all anymore is to just take assassination missions. I don't really want to PvP just because millions of credits would constantly be at stake. CQC would be the place for that without the gambling of credits, but....actually finding a CQC match lol.
I really wish they wouldn't have abandoned CQC and could just flesh it out a bit more to attract people into playing it. Add a "medium" ship class including Vultures, FDLs, Pythons, etc. Add a large class for multicrewed Anacondas, Cutters, or Corvettes. Better yet, just add a mode where you can take your ship in the main game and fight other players in a CQC like environment, where nothing is at stake.