Elon Musk tweets out support for Democratic candidate Andrew Yang

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Scotland
It's not right, but the last few years America has been insulting the Arts while telling people STEM degrees are the only ones worth it "because those get you jobs".



The thing is, I'm a full proponent of raising UBI over time. You can't use $12k to replace the $48-70k a trucker earns, after all. An incremental increase over the next ten years that's automatic, working its way up to $24k would be solid. But we've also got to get over the idea that people can/should live alone until they have a family. America's really attached to the idea that you're not successful if you're living with parents or roommates past college.
I'm not saying it should totally replace the income they had from a job, just enough to be above the poverty line and be able to function properly in society.
 
Oct 27, 2017
118
I really don't get the anti-Yang sentiment here. Did he ever say/do anything bad of note? I'm genuinely curious, he's not my top candidate but he doesn't seem at all like a bad guy.
 

Terra Firma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,405
I really don't get the anti-Yang sentiment here. Did he ever say/do anything bad of note? I'm genuinely curious, he's not my top candidate but he doesn't seem at all like a bad guy.
I think a lot of people are wary because a lot of the people that support him have a libertarian, GGer, or even alt-right tilt.

I personally like the guy and like that he's for Medicare for All, but still don't like his policies on other things.
 
Oct 27, 2017
118
I think a lot of people are wary because a lot of the people that support him have a libertarian, GGer, or even alt-right tilt.

I personally like the guy and like that he's for Medicare for All, but still don't like his policies on other things.
Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense and I've seen a lot of right-wing people talk favorably about him. I just feel like I haven't heard much of anything about him other than his $1k a month plan.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
426
I really don't get the anti-Yang sentiment here. Did he ever say/do anything bad of note? I'm genuinely curious, he's not my top candidate but he doesn't seem at all like a bad guy.
Agreed, glad to see more people sticking up for him here, he's a genuinely good guy with ideas worth considering. I think a lot of people here are just really invested in other outcomes
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,517
The incentive to learn so you can get a job is bigger than you think I feel.
There's a very real incentive now, but the whole point of UBI is to prepare for a world where technology is meeting our needs, replacing traditional workers of all types. There's actually a lot of white collar administrative jobs - the type typically associated with at least a bachelor's degree - under threat from automation too. It's not just warehouse folks and truck drivers.

The world (and the economy) might actually be a lot better off if people are free to pursue education based on desire rather than being pigeonholed into something 'lucrative'. Plus, you know, not being saddled with a small mortgage worth of debt.
 

Matthew23

Member
Oct 31, 2017
532
Right: "How are we going to pay for all that???"

Left: "It's not enough!!!"

The 12k amount isn't meant as a work replacement (aside from seniors) but rather something to soften the transition for those whose jobs have been automated away. A common criticism of Ubi in general is that it could kill incentive to work. Keeping the number around the poverty line is a middling approach that does a lot for those willing to have roommates while leaving plenty of desire for something better. It seems like a good starting point to me.

If Ubi becomes a reality I imagine it instantly becoming everyone's favorite policy and something people are going to want to see increase over time. Just getting a foot in the door is going to be a huge challenge though.
 
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Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,318
Ontario was doing a UBI pilot before Dud Ford cancelled it but early results seemed to show UBI was empowering people to improve their lives by getting a place on their own and getting (re)education.
 

Stick

Member
Oct 30, 2017
724
12k on top of the 26k I make slaving away at my job would absolutely help me pursue more opportunities. 12k on it's own won't be enough to live on, so there's definitely still a need to work, however, for people who do work and don't get paid a lot, this would help tremendously
 

Bashteee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
Right: "How are we going to pay for all that???"

Left: "It's not enough!!!"

The 12k amount isn't meant as a work replacement (aside from seniors) but rather something to soften the transition for those whose jobs have been automated away. A common criticism of Ubi in general is that it could kill incentive to work. Keeping the number around the poverty line is a middling approach that does a lot for those willing to have roommates while leaving plenty of desire for something better. It seems like a good starting point to me.

If Ubi becomes a reality I imagine it instantly becoming everyone's favorite policy and something people are going to want to see increase over time. Just getting a foot in the door is going to be a huge challenge though.
Seems like you are more familiar with the topic, are there already some ideas floating around what will happen if we see price hikes in rent and general cost of living? I assume that once we have 1k$ per month guranteed at our disposal, quite a few landlords and such want to grab some cash.

I'm sure we need UBI in more developed countries, but I'm not sure how this will play out with the current dynamics. I see some risks of that "additional" income just being vaporized due to corperate greed.
 

Zetetica

Member
Jan 5, 2019
109
The most confusing part of the far left's reaction to Yang is calling him a tech bro. He's a lawyer who ran a test prep company then an entrepreneurship program. The charitable interpretation is they assume he's from tech because his key issue is automation but the sad reality is that it's likely just a racist assumption because he's Asian.

Seems like you are more familiar with the topic, are there already some ideas floating around what will happen if we see price hikes in rent and general cost of living? I assume that once we have 1k$ per month guranteed at our disposal, quite a few landlords and such want to grab some cash.
Yang addressed this in his recent H3H3 interview and his answer on the housing piece was pretty shaky. The idea is that the UBI and other proposed incentives would enable people to move more freely, which is probably true but not strong enough to be a real factor. That said, the other main costs of consumer goods, healthcare, and education are addressed well enough, and it's not like rent control or zoning regulations are implemented at a high enough level for the president to have power over them.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,116
The most confusing part of the far left's reaction to Yang is calling him a tech bro. He's a lawyer who ran a test prep company then an entrepreneurship program. The charitable interpretation is they assume he's from tech because his key issue is automation but the sad reality is that it's likely just a racist assumption because he's Asian.



Yang addressed this in his recent H3H3 interview and his answer on the housing piece was pretty shaky. The idea is that the UBI and other proposed incentives would enable people to move more freely, which is probably true but not strong enough to be a real factor. That said, the other main costs of consumer goods, healthcare, and education are addressed well enough, and it's not like rent control or zoning regulations are implemented at a high enough level for the president to have power over them.
He is a wanna be tech bros.
 

Matthew23

Member
Oct 31, 2017
532
Seems like you are more familiar with the topic
I didn't mean to misrepresent myself 😄

Truthfully I hadn't paid much attention to Ubi until a US presidential candidate started talking about it.

I actually share your concern on rent. It seems one of the areas we likely would see inflation. I haven't heard Yang offer much in the way of solutions here. He suggests with Ubi more people would be in a position to own which would lower rental demand which could possibly help with pricing. The real solution though is more affordable housing being built. I'm not sure how much of a role the federal government will be in this happening (in the US).
 

coldcrush

Member
Jun 11, 2018
131
Not sure why people are so against musk on this forum , he’s probably doing more for humanity than anyone else rigt now but that’s another thread, yang seems like a solid person and ubi in some form will be a necessity in the furure, I’m glad candidates like Yang are getting support from influential and intelligent people. Yang, sanders and warren seem like the only 3 semi trustworthy candidates so any support for them
Is good in my book
 

MilkBeard

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,888
I'm not voting for Yang in the primaries, but I think, as other people have said, it's worth keeping him in the debates simply to bring these conversations to the table. Even if his plan is flawed, simply talking about UBI and how we will work around automation I think is beneficial and helps expand people's ideas about what is possible. I also like his demeanor in how he approaches the topics.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,479
I'm not voting for Yang in the primaries, but I think, as other people have said, it's worth keeping him in the debates simply to bring these conversations to the table. Even if his plan is flawed, simply talking about UBI and how we will work around automation I think is beneficial and helps expand people's ideas about what is possible. I also like his demeanor in how he approaches the topics.
He'd be a good labor or commerce secretary.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,473
That tweet by Yang is actually exactly why I want to support him. I think there are more rounded and capable candidates who I'd support first, but that type of scientific attitude is exactly what I'd want in a president. It's nice to see.

One of the most absurd things about political discourse to me has always been criticism of changing positions. Not what they changed their position to, but simply the act of changing positions at all. I hate the stupid ass gotcha videos and I hate the lazy "this guy said this thing once and therefore x" line of thought. People change, their positions change, it should be commended when someone is presented with more/better information and changes their mind.
Just sometimes you don’t need to apply science to things. It’s honestly the biggest turn off for any person when I hear them speak. If every problem you discuss revolves around some scientific theory as a means of solution it shows a lack of empathy to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,473
Not sure why people are so against musk on this forum , he’s probably doing more for humanity than anyone else rigt now but that’s another thread, yang seems like a solid person and ubi in some form will be a necessity in the furure, I’m glad candidates like Yang are getting support from influential and intelligent people. Yang, sanders and warren seem like the only 3 semi trustworthy candidates so any support for them
Is good in my book
You really need receipts on why Musk is an asshole and some of us feel he’s not actually helping humanity like he wants you to think?
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,116
Not sure why people are so against musk on this forum , he’s probably doing more for humanity than anyone else rigt now but that’s another thread, yang seems like a solid person and ubi in some form will be a necessity in the furure, I’m glad candidates like Yang are getting support from influential and intelligent people. Yang, sanders and warren seem like the only 3 semi trustworthy candidates so any support for them
Is good in my book
He is a clown and you are happily eating his PR campaign.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,543
I actually caught a snippet of this guy talking to H3 last night since I'd never heard of him before and was kinda curious. I wouldn't say H3 is a good place to be probing someone aiming for the presidency, but he slipped a few times even just there.

When pushed on his idea of the freedom dividend and where it would come from he mentioned a 10% flat tax on internet based businesses like Amazon. When pushed again on whether that 10% would be reflected back onto customers his only answer was we'd hope not but its up to the companies. He also let slip that since the dividend is built up while out of the country and paid upon return there's nothing currently planned to prevent people living abroad ducking back for lump sums currently so it's easily abusable.

So even his biggest talking point seems hugely flawed. He also managed to squeeze in a 'maybe fps will make you dangerous' while trying to say he doesn't feel gamers are the problem when it comes to shootings.

So he seems like at best his messaging is all over the place, or at worst he's saying what he feels will net support rather than anything he truly believes in.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,204
America
The trades are a thing and they are dying because of the "you must get at least a bachelors degree, preferably a graduate degree" mentality. You're acting like the current setup gives us the optimal societal outcome when it's pretty far from it.
The trades are actually alive and well. It's just that college degree is the new high school diploma.

Is that the wrong way to do it? I dunno. It's like asking: Are college humanities classes useful, on average?

I'd say yes?
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,001
I really don't get the anti-Yang sentiment here. Did he ever say/do anything bad of note? I'm genuinely curious, he's not my top candidate but he doesn't seem at all like a bad guy.
Someone from Silicon Valley arguing for something we need that's been propagandized as an enemy to "work as dignity" means he's one of the more toxic candidates in this election if our threshold is "beat Donald Trump with someone stable".

Yang's always been a sacrificial lamb candidate to me. Get him in to talk about automation, because people have no clue that the only bigger macro issue we face this century is climate. Instead we're stuck in the ditches scapegoating non-whites as thieves while companies are literally the robber barons. And America frequently allows things to grow into a crisis, and this will be one of them.
 

Nora

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,617
Not sure why people are so against musk on this forum , he’s probably doing more for humanity than anyone else rigt now but that’s another thread, yang seems like a solid person and ubi in some form will be a necessity in the furure, I’m glad candidates like Yang are getting support from influential and intelligent people. Yang, sanders and warren seem like the only 3 semi trustworthy candidates so any support for them
Is good in my book
thank you, this post made me laugh a lot. "musk does more for humanity than anyone else right now" is the funniest shit i've read all week
 

Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,843
Limburg
UBI would be great but not the way Yang proposed it. A real UBI without cutting existing social programs is the way to go
 

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
547
UBI would be great but not the way Yang proposed it. A real UBI without cutting existing social programs is the way to go
Where exactly do people keep getting this from? Yangs proposal does no such thing. He just assumes many people will forgo using existing benefits in favor of the UBI because it comes with no stigma or requirements and would give people more freedom... In no way shape or form does his plan cut any existing benefits or programs.
 

Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,843
Limburg
Where exactly do people keep getting this from? Yangs proposal does no such thing. He just assumes many people will forgo using existing benefits in favor of the UBI because it comes with no stigma or requirements and would give people more freedom... In no way shape or form does his plan cut any existing benefits or programs.
Wrongo:

His own website

Andrew proposes funding the Freedom Dividend by consolidating some welfare programs and implementing a Value-Added Tax (VAT) of 10%. Current welfare and social program beneficiaries would be given a choice between their current benefits or $1,000 cash unconditionally – most would prefer cash with no restriction.

...

The means to pay for the Freedom Dividend will come from 4 sources:

1. Current spending. We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of the Freedom Dividend because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits.
See, consolidation will lead to cuts and making people choose between their current benefits and a measly 1k per month will result in people that need them either not being eligible or losing their benefits.
 

Ryno23

Member
Dec 13, 2017
547
Wrongo:

His own website



See, consolidation will lead to cuts and making people choose between their current benefits and a measly 1k per month will result in people that need them either not being eligible or losing their benefits.
Well that's a cynical take, I don't interpret that as cutting programs but being given a choice... I don't see however that's taking away anything from anyone, many people lose those benefits if they get a job or make too much money leaving them trapped or with no incentive to try to improve their situation, the freedom dividend would be superior in many cases, and as already pointed out earlier does stack with SSDI
 

Lathentar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
89
UBI would be great but not the way Yang proposed it. A real UBI without cutting existing social programs is the way to go
What is the issue with cutting existing social programs that overlap in purpose of a ubi? I see ubi as social security for all so you could phase that out. No need for unemployment or at least at the percentage it is now. Food stamps and housing assistance could be dramatically reduced or eliminated as well. Disability needs to stay. From what I recall Yang's plan was to give people the option to choose ubi or existing programs for whatever they get the most benefit from.
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,324
Wrongo:

His own website

See, consolidation will lead to cuts and making people choose between their current benefits and a measly 1k per month will result in people that need them either not being eligible or losing their benefits.
It's funnier still when you consider the policy doesn't actually add up, especially for a someone who claims to love maths.
Some time between March and June he must have realised the base figures didn't add up to be sufficient to cover the $2.4 billion, as an older version of the policy only amounted to $2.2 billion, but they seem to have changed the figure they're using for "economic growth".

His figures remain incorrect or intentionally misleading.
  • The growth figure is based on a study that funded via deficit spending not a consumption tax and replacement of existing benefits. Under the scenario he proposes, the figure should be something like 80% less or circa $200B, which adds an additional $800M hole.
  • US federal welfare spending programs amount to more like $350 billion - not $500-600 million, so there's a $250M additional hole.
Meanwhile someone who stays on current more generous benefits, or people above the working age and on Social Security are stuck with a new consumption tax leaving them worse off.