The fact that you have a privilege if you have Jewish ancestors already irks me but the fact that it doesn't seem to shock people bothers me even more but whatever.
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Emigrate to Israel [see staff post]
- Thread starter Deleted member 9838
- Start date
Making things right for the descendants of people who had to flee a country because of persecution or likely death irks you?
At the expense of a people who didn't participte in this persecution ?
What do you mean at the expense? The country has immigration laws like any normal country. If you meet the requirements, go ahead.
That's a dumb thing to be upset over. Jewish people have been persecuted for hundreds of years and still do all over the world, why does it always have to be something negative regarding Israel in these threads?
Instead of looking at it as something generous to strengthen the very base of the country and its people, you automatically go and cry unfair? To whom is it unfair?
Well, you certainly have the privilege to be persecuted, discriminated against, being the perpetrator in nearly all conspiracy theories from the right AND the left, be unanimously hated by the right and the left, be a persona non grata in several countries, yeah...
All that privilege when you have jewish ancestors, really irksome.
This sounds unrelated to what the person was trying to express, that it is irksome to them that people get preferred in treatment as immigrants based on their ancestry.
I'll admit that it does seem odd to me as well, a country with preferential treatment based on blood/ethnicity.
Like, I absolutely get Germany granting citizenship to those who lost it based on the abominable actions of nazi Germany, but for Israel.. Idk. Are there good reasons?
In any case, I don't see how what you wrote is relevant when talking about immigration privilege.
Sorry, but this is about parents, isn't it? Not ancestry the way the person you responded to used it. Having citizenship because your parent is a citizen is different from getting citizenship because someone in your family tree used to be a citizen(or resident, I guess) once upon a time.
Click CTRL+F and search for ethnicity in that wiki article.
If you are talking about the intellectual and religious foundations of Zionism, yeah, those are bullshit, but it's a bit too late for that.
If the complaint is about giving citizenship to the refugees from WW2 and from the Iberian expulsion of the Jews just... No, man. Shut up. Learn some history.
If the complaint is about giving citizenship to the refugees from WW2 and from the Iberian expulsion of the Jews just... No, man. Shut up. Learn some history.
1 result found, about Bulgaria.
I guess you mean Leges Sanguinis in general?
Really irksome as well. Can't agree with this practice at all, a collection of privileges I feel shouldn't exist. Jus Sanguinis is mostly fine, Leges Sanguinis is garbage in most cases.
Edit: more importantly: It's not extremely common, if you look at the list.
Absolutely. I wouldn't view this as privilege anyway, but rather as some sort of attempt to make things right by those affected.
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Jesus. Alright, search for 'ethnic' instead.
Or go down that list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis#Leges_sanguinis_states_today
But also look at Germany in the list above it.
Edit: Right, then I hope you bring that up in every thread where people ask about immigrating to these countries. There is certainly no need to single out Israel for it.
I may, if it is relevant to the OP. This is about Israel, and commenting on their immigration policy is absolutely on topic.
Your point that leges sanguinis is extremely common is just not true and doesn't make it right.
And of you'll again consider what I wrote, I pointed out that granting citizenship to relatives of people wronged by the country in question is something I find acceptable. Germany doesn't grant privileges to an ethnicity in general, unless I am misreading.
Edit: "Well, we'll see if you are fair in your judgment in hypothetical different scenarios" is so weirdly passive-aggressive in my eyes, if there is no indication of anything contrary.
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Seems to me like most of those countries' laws in the Leges sanguinis articles relate to some sort of fallen empire / lost war / exiled ethnic group situation. In the case of Israel it seems to be similar but more in a overall exile history context. I can see it making sense especcially if you're jewish and born/living in a region where there is rampant (if not violent) discrimination against jews - so it makes sense to offer a "safe haven" for those people, considering that is more or less what Israel was meant to be. If you're coming from somewhere where there is no such discrimination I can see it making less sense.
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Agreed.
It may not be true in the sense that it's extremely common, but it's still practiced by at least 19 countries, three of which are members of the G7.
You are ill informed about Germany:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aussiedler_und_Spätaussiedler
https://www.uni-trier.de/fileadmin/...htnis_german_late_repatriates_remigration.pdf
It's a common practice and therefore I don't see a reason to single out Israel for implementing it.
Looking at the fact that many Jews died in WW2 because countries like the USA didn't accept them as refuges. Such a law makes a lot of sense
But some users here would rather that Jews just lie down and die because it's somehow unfair because reasons.
But some users here would rather that Jews just lie down and die because it's somehow unfair because reasons.
I still don't get it. As far as I can tell, unless you are part of a family affected by exile/refugee status, you still have more requirements than "be X ethnicity", right? Something about cultural closeness? Nothing I read indicates that it's enough be a certain ethnicity.
If I'm wrong, however, then I'll gladly condemn it. I just don't think Leges Sanguinis is a good law to permanently have. Temporary, for certain situations, is another matter I guess.
And feel free to explain why it is wrong to "single out" Israel when talking about emigration to Israel. The person you responded to in your posts that started our discussion said something in the context of this thread, they didn't proclaim "It's only wrong when it's about Jews". Their thoughts about other countries with Leges Sanguinis didn't enter the conversation.
Going further, they didn't even specify that they were talking about ethnicity and not religion. As far as we can tell, the complaint might be that converting is enough to get citizenship, which I also agree is rather iffy.
You seem to see an unfair or biased attack where there doesn't appear to be one.
You think so? I'd have assumed that granting citizenship is a huge step above accepting refugees. Also, come on. The bolded is just a fat strawman.
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i'm sure Israel would like Palestinians to just lie down and die
Granting people citizenship is the ultimate way of protecting them.
Over 20000 Jews were forced to travel to China because there was no state which accepted them.
Massacring its neighbours and robbing thier land whilst brutally oppressing those who happen to share ancestry is quite a compelling reason why people are uneasy with Israel. I find it baffling how anyone thinks continued human suffering of others is ok due to past attorcities, atrocities that barely anyone alive today was a part of, let alone the poor Palestinians who are being slowly removed from existence.
Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back.
Egypt doesn't want Gaza back.
Its territory lost in a war, which Israel's neighbors started.
Why would they? Its Palestine's, they want the West Bank.
I don't understand why it makes more sense to grant an ethnicity unrestricted citizenship by default rather than introducing a law which grants it to those who need it. You're acting like without Leges Sanguinis, Israel would turn away Jews in need.
That does not give Isreal the right to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians.
How is that even related to the discussion for providing the right of Jewish people to emigrate to Israel?
Israel itself only exists because the world showed that they don't care about them.
I suggest you actually do some research on the issues and history surrounding the topic before parroting buzzwords.
So what exactly makes you angry that Israel provides them with citizenship?
nope;why would I want people who call my country boring?
I know getting outraged like a child is more important than reading comprehension and understanding statements, try that
also if you said this irl knowing me people would laugh at your face for that dumb fucking moronic statement, rightfully so
stop making disingenuous arguments just because you want to fight someone on the internet to prove your self worth
Feel free to rephrase that into a non-suggestive question if you want to discuss this.
In the meantime, I'll answer the question you asked:
Nothing.
You are investing a lot of time and energy in denying Jewish people citizenship of the state Israel .
So what is your motivation?
Labelling anybody who disagrees with anything Israel does/has done as anti-semitic is a lazy and transparent way to try and shut down any further discussion.
Are we allowed to just go around implying people are racist?
Are we allowed to just go around implying people are racist?
Because making an argument of rights based on compassionate grounds without acknowledging the country in question partakes in atrocities and brutality in its day to day running seems contradictory to me.
You're wrong. If you're from the former Soviet Union, proving your Germanness appears to be enough for legal migrant status and immediate or fast-tracked citizenship.
https://www.uni-trier.de/fileadmin/...htnis_german_late_repatriates_remigration.pdf
I didn't address you right away, but rather:
The way it's worded implies that it's somewhat uncommon for countries to implement leges sanguinis (i.e. 'shocking' of Israel to do so). I demonstrated that it's not. I'm done.
Again, so incredibly disingenuous. I am investing a lot of time (not energy) into justifying my position that Leges Sanguinis, unless justified by special circumstances like post-war periods or reparative measures, is not a positive thing, as it favors the maintenance/construction of ethno nationalism, which I view as negative in our increasingly globalized world.
Edit: But that's actually a rather minor thing:
I am not denying anyone anything. I'm not part of Israel, I don't control their laws.
I am, however, on a forum, where I chose to share my views that these laws are granting a privilege that I view as unnecessary or even unfair. As the thread is about Israel, that was the talking point.
That is why I am talking about it. Because I don't like unfair things, even if they don't affect me. I don't know why that is such a huge problem.
Because of your phrasing, I also want to point out that this is about being granted automatic citizenship, not having or acquiring citizenship.
Wikipedia stated "Since 1990 the law has been steadily tightened to limit the number of immigrants each year. It now requires immigrants to prove language skills and cultural affiliation." right after mentioning that, so I thought it applied for those people as well. Oh well, learned something new.
And yeah, not a fan, then.
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And then you are ignoring the reasons why Israel has the law of return. Not just there was the holocaust with the world failed to save Jewish people from the holocaust but the still existing discrimation and persecution in the world.
Those people now have always a safe heaven to move, but that's somehow not acceptable here.
Well to be fair, people in Israel have raised points agains the Law of Return, both from the Orthodox and rightwing points of view as well as from the left. The Leges Sanguinis laws of other countries do not even come close to the broadness of the Law of Return, which imo has an undeniable underlying intention of social engineering. Israel has been trying its best through constant propaganda to reshape the identity of Jews worldwide, irrespective of the national identities they may have had before, into identification with an ethnostate. This is entirely unlike other Leges Sanguinis laws, which take a much more pragmatic and objective approach to things. Whereas the laws of everywhere else have the requirement of knowing the language and having ties to the country, Israel says "I don't care if you were born in the other side of the language, come here, develop your ties from nothing, learn the language, or not even, just speak English or Yiddish or Russian or whatever your native language is, because we gotta take this land before the international sanctions come!"
I wouldn't necessarily have anything against this if it didn't involve the ethnic cleansing of the land, but then if it didn't involve and ethnic cleansing maybe there wouldn't be such a push and so much propaganda in the first place.
And I'm saying that save haven could easily be granted without allowing every Jewish person, including, for example, converts from peaceful and prosperous countries, to skip the immigration process other groups have to undertake.
Claiming I (or others here) think providing a save place for Jews is not acceptable is incredibly reductive and kinda offensive. Nothing I said should even remotely imply that.
That, by the way, is the answer to why I'm investing so much time. Because me saying I think this law isn't great is met with such accusations, which I obviously want to defend myself against.
Providing people with citizenship has a completely different dynamic than granting them refugees status.
No Jewish person should suffer the situation not to have a home anymore.
I find it particularly funny that the Israeli government has friendly ties with every major antisemitic politician in the Western world, is actively supporting them (People like Trum, and Orban) and is actively pushing antisemitic narratives abroad like the hatred against George Soros. It's almost as if they were complicit with antisemites abroad to undermine the national identity and the feeling of safety of Jews abroad in order to get them to get to Israel.
And that is vile and hypocritical.
Yes. But as you can see, I intentionally didn't use that word. As I wrote before, I don't like Leges Sanguinis "unless justified by special circumstances like post-war periods or reparative measures".
I believe that if the law applied to Jews who are fleeing, for example, I would have much less or even no issue. Depends on the exact law.
It is the fact that these laws apply to people regardless of circumstance that I have trouble finding good.
This happens where exactly in this thread?
Is this sarcasm?
Era is a terrible place to ask this, as you can see from the posts before.
As for life itself, you will probably have to do some form of military service. But it will probably not be the full 3 years.
Also you do get quite a bit of governmental assistance for doing Aliya.
Don't know your age but if you are interested in working in technology israel is amazing for that.
People are rude but accepting.
Everyone will ask you why you moved here though.
As for life itself, you will probably have to do some form of military service. But it will probably not be the full 3 years.
Also you do get quite a bit of governmental assistance for doing Aliya.
Don't know your age but if you are interested in working in technology israel is amazing for that.
People are rude but accepting.
Everyone will ask you why you moved here though.
Doesn't gave to be at anyone's expense. Having the right of return for Jews and their descendants to countries they flee from, similar to allowing Palestinian's the right to return.
At the expense of the palestinian native population. 99 % of the current jewish population in Israel have their grand-parents born elsewhere.
It's 101 settler colonialism.
But yeah, let's pretend it was an empty land for a people without a land.
That's a different topic and not what was discussed.
If your pure intention is to further derail the thread, do your best. I'm not going to participate any further.