• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I mean, you might be persuasive if you could explain why you think its fine to download titles that are still available for sale for free rather than falling back on "bu-but corporate knob-slobbers" and "man, I hope you spend your time fighting for civil liberties which are more important than vidya".

Its not like theres a fucking ROM police that are gonna git ya if you choose to not give a fuck about copyright, but own it. Don;t pretend you have some moral imperative to download GoodSNES_Complete.rar ASAP because not doing so is cultural opression
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
More than that, if you're really interested in the welfare of innocent humans, stop buying modern games. Stop supporting foxconn factories that manufacture all the hardware you own, who have to install suicide nets in their premises. I promise you that downloading Lufia 2 hurts less people than buying an iPhone. But it's about the law isn't it? It's not really about the people..

This is just getting ridiculous saying you are against piracy is not saying you are some infallible bastion of unbreaking morality. And connecting being against game piracy to worker exploitation in China is outright ridiculous. Something being worse doesn't mean something else can't be bad or you are not allowed to take a stance against something that is bad because worse exists. No person is capable of living completely free of harm.

We can latch onto edge cases like Lufia II but the site in question was not even close to hosting those exclusively. Sure if the studios/IP holder is long dead, the work is orphaned, or you can't legitimately obtain it through any reasonable method go for it I have no issue with that and I doubt many people do but if something can be obtained legitimately you are not given free reign to pirate it.
 
Last edited:

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
all people have the human right to access all classic art forms. In my conception Lufia 2 is a human right and specially poor people in poor countries should play classic, good games made with old-school sensibilities, to help them increase music appreciation, english grammar, help them develop their imagination with fantasy imagery and increase logic thought, besides this is a part of human recent history, they can be inspired to follow computer science and many good things.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
When actually important people like Warren Spector say that we're doing a bad job of preserving the history of games it makes me feel justified in laughing at the hardline anti-piracy nuts who genuinely care about someone out there downloading NES Tennis for free.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
I mean, you might be persuasive if you could explain why you think its fine to download titles that are still available for sale for free rather than falling back on "bu-but corporate knob-slobbers" and "man, I hope you spend your time fighting for civil liberties which are more important than vidya".

Its not like theres a fucking ROM police that are gonna git ya if you choose to not give a fuck about copyright, but own it. Don;t pretend you have some moral imperative to download GoodSNES_Complete.rar ASAP because not doing so is cultural opression
I specifically addressed this earlier but you ignored it. I don't think anyone here is defending downloading games which are readily available. And no, £300 ebay listings aren't readily available.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
When actually important people like Warren Spector say that we're doing a bad job of preserving the history of games it makes me feel justified in laughing at the hardline anti-piracy nuts who genuinely care about someone out there downloading NES Tennis for free.
is Warren Spector important and Deus Ex a cultural artifact tho? /s

edit: holy shit, Pmichael beat me to the punch, except I think he's serious
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I specifically addressed this earlier but you ignored it. I don't think anyone here is defending downloading games which are readily available. And no, £300 ebay listings aren't readily available.

Literally the poster who borught up Lufia 2 also brought up Chrono Trigger.

e:
And no. "I could buy it but I don't want to pay that much" is not much of a justification.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Sure if the studios are long dead, the work is orphaned, and you can't legitimately obtain it through any reasonable method go for it I have no issue with that and I doubt many people do but if something can be obtained legitimately you are not given free reign to pirate it.

Given the post above this one, would you consider £300 eBay listings reasonable methods of obtaining said games?
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,711
Literally the poster who borught up Lufia 2 also brought up Chrono Trigger.

e:
And no. "I could buy it but I don't want to pay that much" is not much of a justification.
So at what ends do devs benifit from you buying a 20 year old game second hand for 100 bucks?

Chrono trigger I can get right now in various ways from SE themselves, pirating the SNES version would be a huge dick move.

Pirating actual obtainable in print software is a dick move. People pirating shit that is long gone and none of the devs or pubs are selling anymore. Eh I honestly can't fault people wanting to see a bit of gaming history for less than an absurd amount of money.

Youtube these days does a good job of introducing people to older games they didnt even know existed and at an increasing rate due to how old gaming is now BEFORE THEY WERE BORN. I'm not gonna get mad at Timmy for downloading a copy of the ps1 version of Lunar 1 instead of shelling out for a ps1, ripping the bios from said ps1 or getting the tv hook ups needed to play old consoles on modern stuff, finding a working memory card yadda yadda.
 
Last edited:

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Literally the poster who borught up Lufia 2 also brought up Chrono Trigger.

e:
And no. "I could buy it but I don't want to pay that much" is not much of a justification.
What's the justification for using a copyrighted avatar without the permission of the copyright holder, considering everything you've said in this thread so far?
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
So at what ends do devs benifit from you buying a 20 year old game second hand for 100 bucks?

Chrono trigger I can get right now in various ways from SE themselves, pirating the SNES version would be a huge dick move
If the creatives you're trying to protect care less about what's going on than you do, maybe somethings not right. I'm not sure he'll see that, though.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
What's the justification for using a copyrighted avatar without the permission of the copyright holder, considering everything you've said in this thread so far?

I'm not redistributing it or pretending its fine that I do so because nobody owns it or because its really old.
And thats really the level of discourse this topic is reaching now?

e:
So at what ends do devs benifit from you buying a 20 year old game second hand for 100 bucks?

Chrono trigger I can get right now in various ways from SE themselves, pirating the SNES version would be a huge dick move.

Pirating actual obtainable in print software is a dick move. People pirating shit that is long gone and none of the devs or pubs are selling anymore. Eh I honestly can't fault people wanting to see a bit of gaming history for less than an absurd amount of money.

Youtube these days does a good job of introducing people to older games they didnt even know existed and at an increasing rate due to how old gaming is now BEFORE THEY WERE BORN. I'm not gonna get mad at Timmy for downloading a copy of the ps1 version of Lunar 1 instead of shelling out for a ps1, ripping the bios from said ps1 or getting the tv hook ups needed to play old consoles on modern stuff, finding a working memory card yadda yadda.

Its not a question of "getting mad" - and yes, the poster who brought up Lufia 2 in the exact same post brought up Chrono Trigger as examples of games he felt its fine to download because reasons.

Its a question of respecting creators rights.
Nobody cares about orphan works, because they're orphan works.
Companies sitting on IP and doing nothign with it is annoying, but thats not a justification to just help yourself anyway. I find UPlay annoying, it doesn't mean I should just warez Assassins Creed instead.

Companies actively tending to their back catalogues should be lauded for doing so.
That is literally the opposite of the mentality exposed ITT, which is taking that for granted.
 
Last edited:

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,711
I'm not redistributing it or pretending its fine that I do so because nobody owns it or because its really old.
And thats really the level of discourse this topic is reaching now?
You are tho. By having it on this site everytime someone sees your post for the first time you are putting the file onto their pc
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
I'm not redistributing it or pretending its fine that I do so because nobody owns it or because its really old.
And thats really the level of discourse this topic is reaching now?
Distribution is only one aspect of copyright infringement. If you're using it without the permission of the copyright holder via any of the rights granted to the copyright holder, you've infringed.

Years ago before I joined an MCN, Youtube made me prove in quadruplicate that I owned everything that I used in my videos. I know a thing or two about copyright bullshit.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
I'll also add that it's not good that collectors and price gougers are occasionally the gatekeepers of retro game content. I don't fully like the deluge of old games being sold back to us either but I'd rather deal with the copyright holder than the dipshit owner of some retro store in NYC who overcharges just because he can.
 

Gonzalez

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,679
I'm not redistributing it or pretending its fine that I do so because nobody owns it or because its really old.
And thats really the level of discourse this topic is reaching now?
That image, and the name Dr. Wily are owned by Capcom,. Co Ltd. Any reuse of this intellectual property without the express written consent of Capcom, is prohibited.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Also running the risk of getting a fake or scammed. Probably more fake copies of games on ebay than real ones.
Adequate possibility of it being a repro cart which would essentially be a bootleg. Too many floating in the wild now.

That's just piracy with extra steps. I really have no way of controlling that but I'm against it on principle. If prices fell I bet it would be a lot less lucrative though.
 

Lastdancer

Member
Nov 1, 2017
644
Hmm... so thinking about that Lufia II example. There are only so many genuine Lufia II carts out there. Let's say 50,000 because I have no honest idea and I couldn't find the info in a quick google search. OK, so, 50k carts out there in the wild. They all belong to someone, somewhere. Now, let's say for the sake of argument that everyone who has a copy does not intend to part with it... is it right that only those 50k owners should be allowed to play and experience the game, if it is out of print, and the current IP owner has no plans of making it available for other platforms?
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Hmm... so thinking about that Lufia II example. There are only so many genuine Lufia II carts out there. Let's say 50,000 because I have no honest idea and I couldn't find the info in a quick google search. OK, so, 50k carts out there in the wild. They all belong to someone, somewhere. Now, let's say for the sake of argument that everyone who has a copy does not intend to part with it... is it right that only those 50k owners should be allowed to play and experience the game, if it is out of print, and the current IP owner has no plans of making it available for other platforms?

If it's out of print and you can't reasonably obtain it go for it. I personally have no qualms in those scenarios. Don't know about other users here.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I'm not redistributing it or pretending its fine that I do so because nobody owns it or because its really old.
And thats really the level of discourse this topic is reaching now?

e:


Its not a question of "getting mad" - and yes, the poster who brought up Lufia 2 in the exact same post brought up Chrono Trigger as examples of games he felt its fine to download because reasons.

Its a question of respecting creators rights.
Nobody cares about orphan works, because they're orphan works.
Companies sitting on IP and doing nothign with it is annoying, but thats not a justification to just help yourself anyway. I find UPlay annoying, it doesn't mean I should just warez Assassins Creed instead.

Companies actively tending to their back catalogues should be lauded for doing so.
That is literally the opposite of the mentality exposed ITT, which is taking that for granted.
You are redistributing it to everyone in this thread and forum without the permission of the copyright holder. By your own definition, you are infringing on copyright. You're not respecting the creator's rights, so it makes it weird you would try to police anyone about it.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
Fine I'll delete my avatar if it will make you address the topic not attack me as a poster.

Why are you entitled to play games you have never purchased, that were never made available to you, on hardware you have never owned?
Why is that your expectation that that is the way the world should work?
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
You are redistributing it to everyone in this thread and forum without the permission of the copyright holder. By your own definition, you are infringing on copyright. You're not respecting the creator's rights, so it makes it weird you would try to police anyone about it.
Anti-piracy hardliners go for the same stupid circular argument every time while usually being hypocrites themselves, it's not even worth trying to force them out of it.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,711
. I find UPlay annoying, it doesn't mean I should just warez Assassins Creed instead.

Companies actively tending to their back catalogues should be lauded for doing so.
That is literally the opposite of the mentality exposed ITT, which is taking that for granted.
Uh, plenty of people praise companies for keeping old games released for buying, that's not what people are complaining about.

That assassin creed statement is stupid as well and completely off base, anyone can go buy the game from the company at this very moment. The people talking about pirating in this thread are talking about works that are no longer sold.
 

Deleted member 3853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
801
That's just piracy with extra steps. I really have no way of controlling that but I'm against it on principle. If prices fell I bet it would be a lot less lucrative though.

People put up fakes of $20 games. And prices won't fall if you go after ROMs and make it more appealing for "collectors" who only buy to turn a profit.
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
Fine I'll delete my avatar if it will make you address the topic not attack me as a poster.

Why are you entitled to play games you have never purchased, that were never made available to you, on hardware you have never owned?
Why is that your expectation that that is the way the world should work?


Jesus dude! No one's attacking you, people are using your avatar as an example of certain copyright laws being bullshit.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
The people talking about pirating in this thread are talking about works that are no longer sold.

No, some people are talking about abandonware.
A lot are just blanketly declaring that old games should be public domain now.

e:
Jesus dude! No one's attacking you, people are using your avatar as an example of certain copyright laws being bullshit.

There are a whole list of reasons why I am allowed to use a Capcom distributed fansite image for the exact same purpose as I was using it, but its a lot fucking easier to just remove it so people can't have their little faux-gotcha
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
No, some people are talking about abandonware.
A lot are just blanketly declaring that old games should be public domain now.

e:


There are a whole list of reasons why I am allowed to use a Capcom distributed fansite image for the exact same purpose as I was using it, but its a lot fucking easier to just remove it so people can't have their little faux-gotcha

Mind pointing to those arguments? Because that is absolutely not what 99% of this discussion has been about.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Copyright law is explicitly designed to protect the value of IP.
No. It's designed to encourage creation.
Copyright is not a natural right. It's a deal between society as a whole and creators to give them a temporary monopoly on creating and distributing copies of their own work, in order to encourage creation of more creative works. The idea is that granting this temporary artificial monopoly enabling more creation is a greater societal good than allowing everyone access to the work -- with the understanding that the entirety of society will eventually benefit.
This sensible purpose and arrangement has been distorted by decades of lobbying, leading to silly ever-increasing term "limits" and overreaching legislation.

Based on the original - ethically sound - idea there is absolutely no question that e.g. copyright on a work is immaterial when there is no longer a way for the original creator to profit from it. Just because current law in many countries states differently doesn't make that position worthy of support.
 

Lastdancer

Member
Nov 1, 2017
644
If it's out of print and you can't reasonably obtain it go for it. I personally have no qualms in those scenarios. Don't know about other users here.

That's basically where I am with it. The scarcity of older games increases as they go out of print, copies are destroyed or otherwise become available and this ultimately results in a situation where you have no option to purchase or otherwise acquire a physical copy. I think the real issue at hand here is that places like Emuparadise were not monitoring the status of each game over time to pull access or present access to games based on their availability, they just dumped whatever they could on the site as it became available, which was irresponsible and in many cases against the terms of the IP holders. And there are naturally people who are against that.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Status
Not open for further replies.