EmuParadise no longer providing ROM download links

Syriel · Aug 9, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Another thought that I had while the thread was closed, is that eventually GOG.com will run into a wall licensing old PC games because they'll eventually run out of games that can be licensed without a huge amount of detective work... should GOG consider selling old console games? A lot of their DOS games use DOSBox already, so they are not averse to packaging emulators.

And NES games used to be licensed to PC when GameTap was an extent service. So it's not a matter of Nintendo saying NES/SNES games can't be sold on PC at all -- there are already SNES games on Steam (Legend & Jim Power being two of them).

I think GOG definitely should consider at the very least tapping into the back catalogues of older computers like the Amiga, Commodore 64, Spectrum, etc. But also consider the NES, SNES, SMS, etc. Get in touch with third party companies, as well as Hamster who licenses a lot of old games.

Actually, one of the major blocks to mass distribution of console games GoG style is...copyright.

Most emulators have no commercial use restrictions in their licenses.

Emulator authors don't want game companies profiting off their work, any more than game companies want people profiting off their work by distributing ROMs.

GameTap wrote/licensed emulators, but the service didn't take off. People didn't want to pay for emulated games.

AtGames is constantly derided for its emulation quality. The NES/SNES Classic get praise, but Nintendo invested quite a bit of effort into crafting those emulators.

If GoG could package games up in MAME or a console emulator at no cost (like it can with DOSBox) we'd likely see console titles. Especially Genesis ones. If GoG has to pay to develop a bespoke emulator at M2 levels of quality, just to be able to sell Genesis ROMs w/o the Internet saying "they have shit emulation," that's going to be a hefty investment.

Shaneus · Aug 9, 2018

oni-link said:
Yeah I'd rate the opinions of these 3 above the corporate apologists on Era

Likewise. Particularly Cifaldi, and I'd be curious on the opinions of someone like Jeremy Parish as well.

But maybe more Cifaldi, because he's actively archiving all sorts of shit including press kits and such. He more than almost anyone has an accurate perspective on where this Emuparadise news fits into the whole preservation/archival thing.

Kiddo Cabbusses · Aug 9, 2018

Syriel said:
Emulator authors don't want game companies profiting off their work, any more than game companies want people profiting off their work by distributing ROMs.

If GoG could package games up in MAME or a console emulator at no cost (like it can with DOSBox) we'd likely see console titles. Especially Genesis ones. If GoG has to pay to develop a bespoke emulator at M2 levels of quality, just to be able to sell Genesis ROMs w/o the Internet saying "they have shit emulation," that's going to be a hefty investment.

One of the frustrating things is seeing only 3 companies license higan (and none of them being anything on the scale of a Capcom/Konami/Square or EA/Ubisoft) even though it is one of the best SNES emulators around.

Kansoku · Aug 9, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Another thought that I had while the thread was closed, is that eventually GOG.com will run into a wall licensing old PC games because they'll eventually run out of games that can be licensed without a huge amount of detective work... should GOG consider selling old console games? A lot of their DOS games use DOSBox already, so they are not averse to packaging emulators.

And NES games used to be licensed to PC when GameTap was an extent service. So it's not a matter of Nintendo saying NES/SNES games can't be sold on PC at all -- there are already SNES games on Steam (Legend & Jim Power being two of them).

I think GOG definitely should consider at the very least tapping into the back catalogues of older computers like the Amiga, Commodore 64, Spectrum, etc. But also consider the NES, SNES, SMS, etc. Get in touch with third party companies, as well as Hamster who licenses a lot of old games.

They've talked about the difficulties they have with licencing on the Noclip documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffngZOB1U2A
At the end they also mention console games. They're are interested on doing it but it's complicated for legal reasons.

dumbclown · Aug 9, 2018

The lack of perspective from some people in this thread is astounding. Yeah fuck you if you're poor or if you're from a country where a certain game didn't ever officially release and your currency is weak against USD/Euros/Pounds. You're just SOL. No old video games for you. It reminds me of what Gabe Newell said about Steam's success in Russia. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."

RedSwirl · Aug 9, 2018

You know what my ideal scenario would be? If GOG started selling console games, or if some service basically became the GOG of console games.

Many games on GOG are basically DOS apps running in DOSBOX wrappers, and for many of them you can literally take out the original DOS app and run it through whatever DOS emulator you want. I say just take the same approach to old console games. Sell DRM-free ROMs running on official emulators on PC and Mac after working out agreements with third party publishers. Give customers the choice to get the naked ROMs. To sweeten the deal, include PDFs of the original manuals and guide books, the soundtracks, artwork, and other cool stuff. Sure you won't ever get Nintendo's games, but you'll still get important classics like Castlevania, Final Fantasy, and Mega Man. Hell, SNK has already effectively been selling DRM-free ROMs through Humble and GOG.

Edit: Beaten.

E.T. · Aug 9, 2018

This is indeed a disturbing time line.

Deleted member 6573 · Aug 9, 2018

Shaneus said:
Likewise. Particularly Cifaldi, and I'd be curious on the opinions of someone like Jeremy Parish as well.

But maybe more Cifaldi, because he's actively archiving all sorts of shit including press kits and such. He more than almost anyone has an accurate perspective on where this Emuparadise news fits into the whole preservation/archival thing.

I think I have accurately described the Emuparadise situation throughout the course of this thread. Emuparadise admins had insider connections to those in underground preservation societies (like MAME, Redump, No-Intro, TOSEC) and was able to amass one of the largest public-facing collection of retro ROMs and ISOs for download by exploiting the hard work of preservationists...they reposted outdated versions of their collections for ad revenue and premium subscriptions. Nothing was inherently lost by their demise.

It was one of the premiere sites for retro piracy for nearly 20 years and stood as one of the last bastions of ROMs hosted on HTTP download servers, and one of the only current avenues to access the work done by the preservation societies. It was also a haven for many casual pirates because a good majority of ROM sites nowadays are just conduits for malware. When Emuparadise fell, so did easy and trustworthy casual access to video game ROMs. That's why its shutdown is being commented upon by leading representatives.

It represents a paradigm shift on our Internet where the lawless days of free-sharing content are getting increasingly shut-down and censored. I truly believe that in 15 years casual video game piracy will no longer exist on the Internet. It's a low-hanging fruit that's been tolerated for far too long, and it's one of the first to be targeted with the death of net neutrality (yes, even torrents and anonymous personal VPN use and access through repositories like Archive.org will all vanish).

Anyone who continues to rely on casual, easy, free access to retro games will be in for a rude awakening.

Benzychenz · Aug 9, 2018

If a site like Emuparadise only had downloads for games not available on WiiU/3DS VC, PSN, Steam etc would anyone go after it to get it shut down?

Or to go further, not host anything owned by an active big publisher?

Deleted member 3335 · Aug 9, 2018

Benzychenz said:
If a site like Emuparadise only had downloads for games not available on WiiU/3DS VC, PSN, Steam etc would anyone go after it to get it shut down?

Or to go further, not host anything owned by an active big publisher?

The target group actually doesn't care about the lost Atari 2600 games. See the top 10 of every rom download site.

Benzychenz · Aug 9, 2018

Pmichael said:
The target group actually doesn't care about the lost Atari 2600 games. See the top 10 of every rom download site.

Of course piracy of readily available games is rampant, but gaming enthusiasts would absolutely care to play a lot of those lost games.
And it's not just super old Atari stuff and the like, you've got plenty of SNES and even later games from now defunct companies unavailable anywhere.

Kapus · Aug 10, 2018

Tain said:
Those are pretty well-catalogued on other sites that run way less risk of being taken down.

Most of them (to my knowledge anyway) only provide the hacks in the form of patches. You would still need the original rom to play it.

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

dumbclown said:
The lack of perspective from some people in this thread is astounding. Yeah fuck you if you're poor or if you're from a country where a certain game didn't ever officially release and your currency is weak against USD/Euros/Pounds. You're just SOL. No old video games for you. It reminds me of what Gabe Newell said about Steam's success in Russia. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."

A lot of these games you can only get on eBay for absurd prices were never supposed to be sold at those prices, the developer and publisher priced them sensibly but due to rarity the price goes up because people can charge that

Suikoden 2 used to sell for hundreds but the soon as it came out on PSN it was £3.99

Same with Earthbound, it used to go for huge prices and then it drops on the eShop for a tenner

Gelf · Aug 10, 2018

We need legal services where these ROMs are put up for sale. There are quite a few titles I'd happily just buy the ROM and worry about sourcing the emulator myself. I mean I bought the Sega and Neo Geo stuff on PC and barely used the packaged emulators, I just liked having legal ownership of the ROM files for use in Retroarch.

daninthemix · Aug 10, 2018

Have I travelled back in time or did this thread get un-locked?

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

daninthemix said:
Have I travelled back in time or did this thread get un-locked?

There is a mod post on the previous page explaining the situation

daninthemix · Aug 10, 2018

oni-link said:
There is a mod post on the previous page explaining the situation

I see. The problem is that one side of the arguments in this thread are advocating piracy (because piracy is the only option left when publishers won't sell their games, or no longer exist) - so it's hard to have a discussion without breaching the rules. The only "allowed" posts then, are:

"Yeah, down with those pirates".

"Good riddance"

etc.

Broken Hope · Aug 10, 2018

dumbclown said:
The lack of perspective from some people in this thread is astounding. Yeah fuck you if you're poor or if you're from a country where a certain game didn't ever officially release and your currency is weak against USD/Euros/Pounds. You're just SOL. No old video games for you. It reminds me of what Gabe Newell said about Steam's success in Russia. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."

So if you're poor it's perfectly acceptable to get something for free? Plenty of stuff doesn't release in some countries, that makes it acceptable to just download it instead?

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

daninthemix said:
I see. The problem is that one side of the arguments in this thread are advocating piracy (because piracy is the only option left when publishers won't sell their games, or no longer exist) - so it's hard to have a discussion without breaching the rules. The only "allowed" posts then, are:

"Yeah, down with those pirates".

"Good riddance"

etc.

There is more nuance than that, everyone agrees piracy is bad, but I think there are levels of piracy

Someone pirating the latest Assassin's Creed is pretty awful, because it hurts Ubisoft, I don't think anyone can justify that and everyone who has downloaded that deserves to be banned

Someone downloading a ROM of Lufia 2 is equally breaking the law, but there isn't a way to support the rights holders of Lufia 2, and Lufia 2 isn't currently for sale anywhere, so the only person who is being harmed by this is the guy on eBay trying to sell a copy of the game for a few hundred dollars

It's still wrong, and people shouldn't pirate Lufia 2, because it's illegal, but it's stupid that it's illegal as ideally there should be a way you can buy the game and fund the rights holder. Currently you can only legally buy it by paying some random person who isn't the rights holder

With a lot of these older games, the rights holder might not care or even know they own these old IP, and they won't see it as worth their time selling the games, so if you care about experiencing some of the best and most notable games of the past, you're shit out of luck essentially because a group of people who don't care about these games and can't be arsed to sell them, are not really concerned about providing a legal route to their IP for those who want it

So you're forced to go without, pay huge fees on eBay that will only ever go up as more and more copies fail/die/get lost, or break the law

I don't condone breaking the law at all, but people are obviously going to take this route until a better service is provided. It's just as Gabe says, piracy is often a service issue and not a money issue

There will always be cheap fuckers who steal because they're cheap bastards, but right now piracy is the best way to play a lot of older games, and that is the issue, that shouldn't be the case, there should be a legal way to get these games, and that is what we should be fighting for

daninthemix · Aug 10, 2018

To be honest, my ideal would be a site like Emuparadise that charges for ROMs and the money goes to the rights holders.

Eshop / PSN / WiiWare are not good enough for me as:

1) They don't have all the games
2) They don't let me play the games in an emulator

TastyBurger666 · Aug 10, 2018

Shaneus said:
The whole story/string (or whatever) is worth reading:

This is a good point, too:

I wish I could like this Cifaldi post, but unfortunately he's blocked me on twitter too.

Is he a member here?

HotHamBoy · Aug 10, 2018

Shaneus said:
The whole story/string (or whatever) is worth reading:

This is a good point, too:

Absolutely.

If game companies did a better job of making these games available on modern hardware we wouldn't have so many people turning to piracy.

Think of a SNES Classic Mini that can officially add more games from an online storefront vs one you have to hack to play more games on.

HotHamBoy · Aug 10, 2018

Oniletter said:
Quite a lot of people coming out of the woodwork to confirm they are pirates.

Really recontextualize all those " it's just for legal homebrew" defenses you see whenever a piece of hardware is hacked.

Quite a lot of people getting hemorrhoids from being on their high horse, too.

HotHamBoy · Aug 10, 2018

ASarafanov said:
Amazing. Piracy is cancer.

Eh.

Lots of great art has been given exposure it never would have received otherwise without people making copies of cassettes and discs and swapping files. Lots of art preserved that way, too.

signal · Aug 10, 2018

HotHamBoy said:
Eh.
Lots of great art has been given exposure it never would have received otherwise without people making copies of cassettes and discs and swapping files. Lots of art preserved that way, too.

If only emuparadise were some curated list of legitimately rare or obscure items that were at risk of being forgotten and and things like final fantasy x and grand theft auto san andreas weren't their most downloaded items.

HotHamBoy · Aug 10, 2018

signal said:
If only emuparadise were some curated list of legitimately rare or obscure items that were at risk of being forgotten and and things like final fantasy x and grand theft auto san andreas weren't their most downloaded items.

Ok, but you gotta take the good with the bad.

Those games also have made insane amounts of money just fine, despite piracy. FWIW, i bought them.

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

HotHamBoy said:
Ok, but you gotta take the good with the bad.

Those games also have made insane amounts of money just fine, despite piracy.

Yeah that's not how it works, you can't decide they made enough money so it's ok to download them

Both those games are being sold legitimately in a way that benefits the rights holder, so there is no excuse for downloading those titles

signal · Aug 10, 2018

HotHamBoy said:
Ok, but you gotta take the good with the bad.
Those games also have made insane amounts of money just fine, despite piracy.

No you don't. I agree the effect of pirating these major titles is probably minimal and I agree games need a better road to public domain / need better legitimate preservation activities supporting them, especially by the industry, but right now you could 100% have a more curated site that, while technically piracy, was way more set up to serve as way to preserve games that are actually at risk of being totally forgotten. There are already sites that do this for select games on select platforms.

TastyBurger666 · Aug 10, 2018

Oniletter said:
Quite a lot of people coming out of the woodwork to confirm they are pirates.

Really recontextualize all those " it's just for legal homebrew" defenses you see whenever a piece of hardware is hacked.

Or Nintendo really does have a history of using strong-arm tactics...

Back in the day, I worked for a game import company that was raided by the Police at the behest of Nintendo UK.

TastyBurger666 · Aug 10, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Another thought that I had while the thread was closed, is that eventually GOG.com will run into a wall licensing old PC games because they'll eventually run out of games that can be licensed without a huge amount of detective work... should GOG consider selling old console games? A lot of their DOS games use DOSBox already, so they are not averse to packaging emulators.

And NES games used to be licensed to PC when GameTap was an extent service. So it's not a matter of Nintendo saying NES/SNES games can't be sold on PC at all -- there are already SNES games on Steam (Legend & Jim Power being two of them).

I think GOG definitely should consider at the very least tapping into the back catalogues of older computers like the Amiga, Commodore 64, Spectrum, etc. But also consider the NES, SNES, SMS, etc. Get in touch with third party companies, as well as Hamster who licenses a lot of old games.

There's no point with the Spectrum, as I've said, a largely complete collection is available due to rights holders already waiving their copyright.

The only stuff that people would want adding to that is the Ultimate / Rare offerings.

TastyBurger666 · Aug 10, 2018

Might not be widely reported, but the 'Gamewizard' team have also shut down their rom service.

Pickleslips · Aug 10, 2018

Is there a site dedicated to out of circulation and unpubished roms?

pooptest · Aug 10, 2018

oni-link said:
There is more nuance than that, everyone agrees piracy is bad, but I think there are levels of piracy

Someone pirating the latest Assassin's Creed is pretty awful, because it hurts Ubisoft, I don't think anyone can justify that and everyone who has downloaded that deserves to be banned

Someone downloading a ROM of Lufia 2 is equally breaking the law, but there isn't a way to support the rights holders of Lufia 2, and Lufia 2 isn't currently for sale anywhere, so the only person who is being harmed by this is the guy on eBay trying to sell a copy of the game for a few hundred dollars

It's still wrong, and people shouldn't pirate Lufia 2, because it's illegal, but it's stupid that it's illegal as ideally there should be a way you can buy the game and fund the rights holder. Currently you can only legally buy it by paying some random person who isn't the rights holder

With a lot of these older games, the rights holder might not care or even know they own these old IP, and they won't see it as worth their time selling the games, so if you care about experiencing some of the best and most notable games of the past, you're shit out of luck essentially because a group of people who don't care about these games and can't be arsed to sell them, are not really concerned about providing a legal route to their IP for those who want it

So you're forced to go without, pay huge fees on eBay that will only ever go out as more and more copies fail/die/get lost, or break the law

I don't condone breaking the law at all, but people are obviously going to take this route until a better service is provided. It's just as Gabe says, piracy is often a service issue and not a money issue

There will always be cheap fuckers who steal because they're cheap bastards, but right now piracy is the best way to play a lot of older games, and that is the issue, that shouldn't be the case, there should be a legal way to get these games, and that is what we should be fighting for

Agreed.

I hated having to pay $50 for Tales of Destiny (a few years back) on eBay, well knowing that the only person seeing the money would be the eBay seller. Games made not available elsewhere will continue to die out and be impossible to find.

Deleted member 5167 · Aug 10, 2018

daninthemix said:
I see. The problem is that one side of the arguments in this thread are advocating piracy (because piracy is the only option left when publishers won't sell their games

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

Dr Wily said:

You might as well put your avatar back, it's not like it matters or hurts Capcom and I doubt you own the right to use the name Dr Wily anyway

Stuart Gipp · Aug 10, 2018

It's down almost solely to emulation that I even developed a taste for and interest in old games, and the reason why I buy near-enough every retro re-release that comes out. I've spent countless amounts more money on games because of exposure to them via emulation than I ever would have otherwise.

Gonzalez · Aug 10, 2018

Dr Wily said:

Okee dokee

Bomblord · Aug 10, 2018

Posted this way earlier in the thread but now we've slowed down and it won't be lost in seconds. If you're interested in more legitimate emulation we have a thread on how to rip your own roms in most cases it's really easy.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...-build-your-own-legitimate-rom-library.37867/

TyrantGuardian · Aug 10, 2018

Dr Wily said:

Again, please tell me how I could possibly get my hands on the SNES version of Chrono Trigger (for the sake of this argument, I don't personally care) in a way that supports the creators in any way, shape or form?

Before you call me entitled (whatever the fuck that means), please keep in mind that I have well over 800 games in my Steam library (many purchased at full price), I have an extensive library of physical console games and I've invested more economic support into this industry than anything else save paying taxes. If your thinking is that someone like me would (again, hypothetically) bother pirating a ROM of an obscure edition of a game because I can't be arsed to pay for it, I don't know what to tell you.

Also before you dismiss the notion that there is value to playing the original SNES edition of that game (or any edition of any game), please consider that my reason for wanting to open up that particular ROM could be for research, hacking, learning how a SNES game was built and analyzing the linguistic virtues of the translation that differs from later releases of the game in the context of how it is paced within the game itself (so, a transcript or a video wouldn't work.)

That's not even mentioning wanting to play the game via high-end emulation that goes below the input lag of original hardware, has much greater support for graphical representation of the game and takes literally any input method I want. The latter is relevant for everyone because maybe you don't want a tiny shitty SNES controller for your big gorilla hands if you're like me and you want to play the game with your custom huge arcade stick. Or maybe you're fucking disabled and can't play with a SNES gamepad or a DS or whatever other input methods are accepted by later ports of the game and having access to the original ROM and emulation is the only way you can play the game at all.

All of this trumps any claim to morality you could ever posit in a case like this, as far as I'm concerned. Now, that said, piracy is indeed illegal and anyone taking part in it needs to be prepared to face the consequences where applicable and I completely understand this forum's stance on the issue. I think copyright laws should be completely reformed to take power out of the hands of corporations and back into the hands of creators and consumers in a much more reasonable system, but until then, tough shit. Get politically organized if you want change.

Lord British said:
It's down almost solely to emulation that I even developed a taste for and interest in old games, and the reason why I buy near-enough every retro re-release that comes out. I've spent countless amounts more money on games because of exposure to them via emulation than I ever would have otherwise.

Same. It's been decades since I pirated games as a ghetto kid who was nowhere near able to afford more than one console and 2-3 games (not to mention not even knowing where to possibly access older consoles/games legally) but if it wasn't for that I can tell you with extreme certainty that my interest in this medium wouldn't even be a tenth of what it is now. Same goes for music; I'm a musician and a music producer/engineer and if it wasn't for easy and free access to music, I literally never would have picked up an instrument in the first place. Not everyone is privileged enough to be surrounded by a society that encourages games, art or other forms of creativity - we had to find it and explore it on our fucking own.

I genuinely hope I don't get banned here for expressing this opinion because I certainly think that someone who is in a position of knowledge, access and economic flexibility lending itself to purchasing games (like I exclusively do nowadays) should always be buying them rather than pirating, but if you think a poor kid with no one around them sharing their interests growing up into a creative powerhouse because they got access to these things via piracy is a morally reprehensible thing? Something's straight up wrong with you.

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

Bomblord said:
Posted this way earlier in the thread but now we've slowed down and it won't be lost in seconds. If you're interested in more legitimate emulation we have a thread on how to rip your own roms in most cases it's really easy.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...-build-your-own-legitimate-rom-library.37867/

That's really cool but also not 100% legal, it's probably fine but it's never been challenged and so the rights holder could still claim infringement:

Source

There's nothing quite like reliving your childhood with your favorite retro games, but are emulators and ROMs legal? The internet will give you a lot of answers, but we talked to a lawyer to get a more definitive answer

To find out, we asked Derek E. Bambauer, who teaches Internet law and intellectual property at the University of Arizona's College of Law

A common argument online is that extracting a ROM from a cartridge you own is perfectly legal, but downloading ROMs from the web is a crime. Devices like the $60 Retrode let anyone extract a Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis game over USB, and state their legality over downloads as a key selling point. After all, ripping a CD you own with iTunes or other software is broadly considered legal, at least in the United States.

So is ripping a ROM you own any different than downloading one? Probably not, says Bambauer: "In both cases what you're doing is creating an additional copy."

Now, Bambauer could imagine constructing an argument about how one is different than the other, and he admits the optics are different. But he doesn't think the two situations are all that distinct, legally speaking.

"I think if the argument is, if I were a skilled engineer, I could extract this and have a copy," said Bambauer. "If we assume, for a moment, that if I did that it would be fair use, then it shouldn't be different."

Deleted member 5167 · Aug 10, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Again, please tell me how I could possibly get my hands on the SNES version of Chrono Trigger (for the sake of this argument, I don't personally care) in a way that supports the creators in any way, shape or form?

Before you call me entitled (whatever the fuck that means), please keep in mind that I have well over 800 games in my Steam library (many purchased at full price), I have an extensive library of physical console games and I've invested more economic support into this industry than anything else save paying taxes. If your thinking is that someone like me would (again, hypothetically) bother pirating a ROM of an obscure edition of a game because I can't be arsed to pay for it, I don't know what to tell you.

Also before you dismiss the notion that there is value to playing the original SNES edition of that game (or any edition of any game), please consider that my reason for wanting to open up that particular ROM could be for research, hacking, learning how a SNES game was built and analyzing the linguistic virtues of the translation that differs from later releases of the game in the context of how it is paced within the game itself (so, a transcript or a video wouldn't work.)

That's not even mentioning wanting to play the game via high-end emulation that goes below the input lag of original hardware, has much greater support for graphical representation of the game and takes literally any input method I want. The latter is relevant for everyone because maybe you don't want a tiny shitty SNES controller for your big gorilla hands if you're like me and you want to play the game with your custom huge arcade stick. Or maybe you're fucking disabled and can't play with a SNES gamepad or a DS or whatever other input methods are accepted by later ports of the game and having access to the original ROM and emulation is the only way you can play the game at all.

All of this trumps any claim to morality you could ever posit in a case like this, as far as I'm concerned. Now, that said, piracy is indeed illegal and anyone taking part in it needs to be prepared to face the consequences where applicable and I completely understand this forum's stance on the issue. I think copyright laws should be completely reformed to take power out of the hands of corporations and back into the hands of creators and consumers in a much more reasonable system, but until then, tough shit. Get politically organized if you want change.

"Sell me a game or I'll steal it, but I'm playing it anyway" is not a valid basis for discussion of broader issues of preservation or a particularly convincing stance.

Nor is "Okay, well you are selling it, but not in the format I want to play it, on the machine I want to play it, in the revision I want to play, at the price I want to pay"

e:
Like... if your perspective is that you must be allowed to play whatever you want right now, and if anything impedes that "right" you're justified in just helping yourself because nothing should ever impede or delay your access to whatever you want...

Then sure. There are only two sides to the discussion and one of them is piracy.

Bomblord · Aug 10, 2018

oni-link said:
That's really cool but also not 100% legal, it's probably fine but it's never been challenged and so the rights holder could still claim infringement:

Source

https://info.legalzoom.com/copyright-laws-video-games-20305.html

When a company sells its video game to a player, it licenses that player to use the game within the terms that are set forth in the license. Because a video game is also a computer program, U.S. copyright law does allow purchasers to make backup copies of the game software for purposes of archiving and re-loading in event of a computer crash, according to the U.S. Copyright Office.

casiopao · Aug 10, 2018

dumbclown said:
The lack of perspective from some people in this thread is astounding. Yeah fuck you if you're poor or if you're from a country where a certain game didn't ever officially release and your currency is weak against USD/Euros/Pounds. You're just SOL. No old video games for you. It reminds me of what Gabe Newell said about Steam's success in Russia. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."

Being poor does not make it okay to steal.

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

Bomblord said:
https://info.legalzoom.com/copyright-laws-video-games-20305.html

So you're ripping your copies just for backup in case of a computer crash?

Your not creating a duplicate copy that you intend to use on another system while still retaining the copy you originally purchased?

This is the entire point of the thread, the law is the law and must be respected, but the law isn't perfect, it's vague, and in many cases it's really stupid

I have no issue with ripping ROMs and playing them on PC as long as you own the original game, I've done it myself (love my Retro Pi) but even doing that is not clearly legally defined as being legally acceptable, which is in itself, really dumb

Bomblord · Aug 10, 2018

oni-link said:
So you're ripping your copies just for backup in case of a computer crash?

Your not creating a duplicate copy that you intend to you on another system while still retaining the copy you originally purchased?

This is the entire point of the thread, the law is the law and must be respected, but the law isn't perfect, it's vague, and in many cases it's really stupid

I have no issue with ripping ROMs and playing them on PC as long as you own the original game, I've done it myself (love my Retro Pi) but even doing that is not clearly legally defined as being legally acceptable, which is in itself, really dumb

I'm format shifting my game, which I own, to use in an emulator.

I agree the law is clear as mud and what constitutes fair use can swing wildly but as far as I and most people can tell creating your own backup or format shifting your game to use in an emulator is legally sound the main problem is there are not a lot of legal precedents on the subject (the ones usually cited are for using VCR's to create video backups from quite a long time ago). Even ignoring that it sure as heck is morally sound so I'll never say that creating your own single use ROMS is less legitimate then downloading one you don't own off a website.

edit: Everytime I re-read this I realize there's more I want to say or clarify so I apologize for the ever increasing size of this post.

TyrantGuardian · Aug 10, 2018

Dr Wily said:
"Sell me a game or I'll steal it, but I'm playing it anyway" is not a valid basis for discussion of broader issues of preservation or a particularly convincing stance.

Nor is "Okay, well you are selling it, but not in the format I want to play it, on the machine I want to play it, in the revision I want to play, at the price I want to pay"

e:
Like... if your perspective is that you must be allowed to play whatever you want right now, and if anything impedes that "right" you're justified in just helping yourself because nothing should ever impede or delay your access to whatever you want...

Then sure. There are only two sides to the discussion and one of them is piracy.

You're ignoring every single point I'm making and just doubling down on your argument without actually saying anything.

Who would someone be stealing from in this scenario? Ebay sellers? Because it sure as hell wouldn't be the publishers - presuming one has no interest in any other version of the game and wouldn't be buying it regardless. What exactly is being stolen, according to you? If you want to assert that claim, you need to be incredibly specific in exactly what you're talking about.

Again, if the format is literally the only reason someone is after a particular ROM, your argument is completely void. In this argument, the person downloading that ROM isn't interested in playing Chrono Trigger - they are interested in the SNES version specifically. Their reasons are their own and I listed a multitude of completely valid reasons behind it, all of which you failed to address in your reply, instead opting for... whatever it is you actually posted? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

You're once again trying to paint this as unreasonable entitlement but who exactly is losing out on someone increasing their knowledge of how the SNES version of Chrono Trigger works, in this case? It isn't Squeenix because they literally have not lost a sale in this case unless they personally reprint that version or legally start selling that exact ROM. Why would any of your arguments matter at all in this case, especially from a moral standpoint?

casiopao said:
Being poor does not make it okay to steal.

Legally? Of course not. Morally if it results in that person becoming an avid legitimate consumer when they can afford it? Huh????? Calling this "stealing" is incredibly disingenuous because literally nothing is being lost by anyone in this case. Stealing by definition requires something to be removed from someone. There's a reason the law actually refers to it as "piracy" and "copyright infringement" rather than "stealing". All you're doing is spreading bullshit propaganda by using that word in this context. The literal law disagrees with you.

MajorBritten · Aug 10, 2018

One other unintended side effect of shutting down the more reputable rom sites might have is that people with complete sets of Roms will now be more likely sell them for much higher prices than before as people wont want to go through the hassle of finding sites that are not full of viruses. There are already loads of SD cards full of complete SNES roms on ebay and those will probably skyrocket in price.

Deleted member 5167 · Aug 10, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
You're ignoring every single point I'm making and just doubling down on your argument without actually saying anything.

Who would someone be stealing from in this scenario? Ebay sellers? Because it sure as hell wouldn't be the publishers - presuming one has no interest in any other version of the game and wouldn't be buying it regardless. What exactly is being stolen, according to you? If you want to assert that claim, you need to be incredibly specific in exactly what you're talking about.

Again, if the format is literally the only reason someone is after a particular ROM, your argument is completely void. In this argument, the person downloading that ROM isn't interested in playing Chrono Trigger - they are interested in the SNES version specifically. Their reasons are their own and I listed a multitude of completely valid reasons behind it, all of which you failed to address in your reply, instead opting for... whatever it is you actually posted? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

You're once again trying to paint this as unreasonable entitlement but who exactly is losing out on someone increasing their knowledge of how the SNES version of Chrono Trigger works, in this case? It isn't Squeenix because they literally have not lost a sale in this case unless they personally reprint that version or legally start selling that exact ROM. Why would any of your arguments matter at all in this case, especially from a moral standpoint?

If you want to play Chrono Trigger, it is available for sale - right now - on the three largest gaming platforms;
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/chrono-trigger-upgrade-ver/id479431697?mt=8
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.square_enix.android_googleplay.chrono&hl=en_GB
https://store.steampowered.com/app/613830/CHRONO_TRIGGER/

You cannot claim that nobody knows who owns the rights to Chrono Trigger. You cannot claim that nobody is missing out on a sale by not buying it. You cannot claim that it is being withheld from you in some manner.

If you believe you have some right to play the "superior" version - which on this console focussed forum is an absolute hypocrisy where the console versions of games are more than 'good enough' - and that because you can't buy the 'superior' version that means you are in some way entitled to not buy it at all, that is wrong.

If you want to pay the owers of Chrono Trigger what they are asking for what they are selling, and then download a ROM of the same game, YMMV on whether you find that okay.
But if you don't want to pay the price they're asking because reasons, you're just rationalising theft.

oni-link · Aug 10, 2018

Bomblord said:
I'm format shifting my game, which I own, to use in an emulator.

I agree the law is clear as mud and what constitutes fair use can swing wildly but as far as I and most people can tell creating your own backup or format shifting your game to use in an emulator is legally sound and it sure as heck is morally sound.

The law you cited to me doesn't allow you to do that though, it just allows you to back it up in case your original version dies

Your still making a second copy of a work you don't have the right to replicate, and as the law professor I cited says, it's probably not going to be seen by the rights holder as legal

Then again, they're also not going to prosecute anyone doing that for personal use, because it doesn't cost them anything. It's a stupid law that when broken hurts no one

Morally what you're doing is fine, but it's still legally dodgy, which is again, really dumb. It does highlight that this isn't a black and white issue

SugarNoodles · Aug 10, 2018

dumbclown said:
The lack of perspective from some people in this thread is astounding. Yeah fuck you if you're poor or if you're from a country where a certain game didn't ever officially release and your currency is weak against USD/Euros/Pounds. You're just SOL. No old video games for you. It reminds me of what Gabe Newell said about Steam's success in Russia. "The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work, it's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates."

A depressing number of people conflate morality with legality without much thought.

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