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Epic’s Statement on Misinformation & Abuse [See Staff Post] [UP: Devs release statement]

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,233
This is a great post. We need to start not tolerating this type of nonsense on Era. Another example that comes to mind is the fake controversy over AC Odyssey grinding last fall, where every single person who was playing the game said it wasn’t a thing at all, only to be shouted down by pitchfork wielders desperate for their next dust-up.

They’re electronic toys at the end of the day. If you’re getting this bent out of shape over them, you need to step back and re-evaluate some things about yourself.
The one that still gets me is the IGN (I think?) RE 2 review where the reviewer initially misunderstood some of the second scenario/NG+ stuff.

People, including some staff, were harshly mocking the reviewer for this supposed horrible incompetence where he didn’t actually play what he was taking about, etc. etc. Meanwhile, if they actually read the review - instead of just going by the small excerpts in image form in the OP - it was clear that it was a much more understandable mistake than what it was being framed as, and that he actually had played more of the game after realizing it. But it got pages and pages and pages of people going at the reviewer.

Shit like that and “puddle gate” absolutely should not have any space on this forum, imo. It’s just harmful nonsense. It shouldn’t be entertained.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,844
And i think we need to make a clear distinction about the situation thats unfolded the last few days. Its not "gamers" doing this harassment. i was in the Discord and watched shit unfold in real time. People didnt flood their channel and harass the devs because Ooblets wasnt coming for Switch or PS4.
Can we not tar the entire PC gaming market with this brush please? It seems a little pointless and knee-jerk.

We are in a thread about a dev getting thousands of death threats and insults

And we're already back to the same song and dance as before.
Because people refuse to read, and are too eager to post. Whether it be the staff posts in pervious EGS exclusive threads, the legitimate reasons for not using EGS, your thread about toxicity in the discussion, or the staff post in this thread. There is a knee-jerk reaction to want to post and have people read that post regardless of how relevant or intelligent it is, whilst ignoring what has been said.

(I'm guilty of this too, but trying hard to be better)
 

Swenhir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
507
It doesnt matter how right you are its not your decision. How and when and why devs choose to release their game is their decision and nobody elses. If they decided to just cancel development and not release at all, thats completely within their right. If they want to port it to Ngage, they can go ahead and do it.
Nobody argued otherwise. It is however our prerogative to criticize their actions for the impact they have on the PC platform, on the customers and the other actors that depend on that ecosystem to exist and pay the bills, just like them. Those concerns are what this document enumerates. Holding developers accountable and on that basis deciding not to purchase their game nor support them is, in turn, entirely the customer's choice and nobody else's.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
922
Pakistan
You can have a 100-paged sourced document complete with testimonials and interviews on why you think, reason, and/or feel EGS is horrible but the reality is this. It doesnt matter how right you are its not your decision. How and when and why devs choose to release their game is their decision and nobody elses. If they decided to just cancel development and not release at all, thats completely within their right. If they want to port it to Ngage, they can go ahead and do it.

And i think we need to make a clear distinction about the situation thats unfolded the last few days. Its not "gamers" doing this harassment. i was in the Discord and watched shit unfold in real time. People didnt flood their channel and harass the devs because Ooblets wasnt coming for Switch or PS4.
I never said its wrong and its not within in right for devs to choose how they release their games but iam only strongly criticizing Epic and their business practices? Iam free to criticize epic however i want without engaging in any disgusting behavior.

Iam absolutely not willing to participating in this 'who and where are they' debate with you on this because this is clearly ban bait and iam not going to discuss it in detail. Also digusting, horrible people are involved in nearly every part of a platform's community and not just the 'PC community' which you are vaguely hinting at. Did we seriously forget the past shitty events which highlighted the shitty-ness of a certain part of the whole gaming community to everyone? I don't need to name it to get you to remember it right? So lets not dwell on that shall we?

So i really don't know why you are pointing this out to me and making it seem like all the 'strong reactions' that are from the digusting people who threaten and harass devs also include the crowd who are pure anti EGS as well because thats not how it is.
 
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Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,037
Chesire, UK
Gamers need to calm the fuck down. I totally get disagreeing with some decisions made in the industry but some of you should shut up and vote with your wallets instead of looking like damn fools getting angry about some petty stuff on the internet.
The truth that nobody wants to engage with is that shutting up and voting with your wallet usually doesn't work, and riling up the internet hate machine usually does.

How many racists have gotten fired thanks to a Twitter mob? How many women have gotten fired thanks to a subreddit melting down? How many games have changed the way their micro-transactions work thanks to some prolonged online outrage? How many developers have effectively gone into hiding thanks to massive and prolonged hate campaigns?

It's a tool that has been proven effective. Internet hate mobs get results. Not always, but often enough to make them almost self perpetuating.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Unless you actively harassed people over it or condoned harassment when it happened, you're not being attacked at all.

It's not an attack on an entire community. It's an attack on the people using this as an excuse to be the worst of the worst.

It isn't always about you.
 

SilentRob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,864
Nobody argued otherwise. It is however our prerogative to criticize their actions for the impact they have on the PC platform, on the customers and the other actors that depend on that ecosystem to exist and pay the bills, just like them. Those concerns are what this document enumerates. Holding developers accountable and on that basis deciding not to purchase their game nor support them is, in turn, entirely the customer's choice and nobody else's.
Yeah, but that's the point. Do that. Please, everyone, do exactly that. That's what developers are even saying themselves. There would be no outrage if that was the simple consequence. But, right now, "holding developers accountable" doesn't mean "Well, I'm just not gonna buy the game, then". It means "Well, I guess I have to attack their integrity at best or be a part of a week-long, constant harassment campaign at worst".

But there's another thing here, too: This "holding developers accountable" is exactly the kind of entitlement that's the basis for all of this. The developers of Ooblets are two people. Two perfectly normal people, fans of video games, who happen to try to make one themselves. Two people who just lost their publishing partner after they were bought out by Microsoft. Two people who have zero guarantee that they will make any of their investments back. Two people who got the chance to not only get all the money they need to finish development but even get all the money they need to make their money back - simply for releasing the game on another, free launcher.

There is literally zero ground for ANYONE to hold these two people "accountable" for anything that is happening in the industry at large. It's a little as if someday, for whatever reason (maybe you decide to work on a small game yourself, who knows!), 10.000 people decide to comb through your post history on Era because everyone decided YOU now represent gaming at large and everything that's wrong with the industry is on you and your refusal to engage with all the possible future customers you might have had in the future. And you're just thinking "Wait, what the fuck, I'm just working on this project of mine, what the fuck is going on?".

These people aren't Bobby Kotick or Tim Sweeney. They aren't some weird, abstract "other", they aren't people in power who hold any kind of influence or sway over anyone. They are not responsible for any business decisions you might like or not like.
 
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dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
903
User Banned (1 Week): Ignoring staff post
AshenOne I bought Forza Horizon 3 which was only on the Windows store, and I’ve also bought plenty of games and software directly from smaller devs where I’ve had to install their launchers or software. None of these things seem remarkable.

Developers are always seeking extra funding options, especially to help through the expensive launch period. Criticising devs for securing funding seems just awful, especially when their games aren’t laden with micro transactions and season passes.
 

water_wendi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,900
Can we not tar the entire PC gaming market with this brush please? It seems a little pointless and knee-jerk.
Before a problem can be addressed an honest assessment needs to be done. ive never really been huge into console gaming so maybe ive missed it but i dont think ive ever seen anything like whats happened here with any game console. The closest was probably when Final Fantasy VII went to Playstation.

Nobody argued otherwise. It is however our prerogative to criticize their actions for the impact they have on the PC platform, on the customers and the other actors that depend on that ecosystem to exist and pay the bills, just like them. Those concerns are what this document enumerates. Holding developers accountable and on that basis deciding not to purchase their game nor support them is, in turn, entirely the customer's choice and nobody else's.
Accountable for what? What misdeeds have the developers done other than release the game on a different store?
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
922
Pakistan
AshenOne I bought Forza Horizon 3 which was only on the Windows store, and I’ve also bought plenty of games and software directly from smaller devs where I’ve had to install their launchers or software. None of these things seem remarkable.

Developers are always seeking extra funding options, especially to help through the expensive launch period. Criticising devs for securing funding seems just awful, especially when their games aren’t laden with micro transactions and season passes.
And thats fine. I only criticized Epic for their shitty practices. Windows store also doesn't indulge in exclusivity nonsense and buyout third party PC games as exclusives. There is quite a difference there between EGS and Windows store. Also on how many launchers you buy games, thats your choice which iam AGAIN fine :). Iam just purely criticizing Epic games and Tim Sweeny for taking choice away from the consumer while disguising it as a 'plus and a benefit' for the consumer' and forcing them to use their shitty, inferior platform.

Also like i said, developers if they really need the money then thats totally ok because its business and they keep to keep themselves afloat but the timing of the exclusivity deals matters and then there is the topic of the relationship of the publiser/dev and their fanbase which i will not dwell on since this will all but take away the message from this thread which is to shut down any sort of disgusting behavior against developers. So that talk is for another day :).
 
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May 25, 2019
795
Nobody argued otherwise. It is however our prerogative to criticize their actions for the impact they have on the PC platform, on the customers and the other actors that depend on that ecosystem to exist and pay the bills, just like them. Those concerns are what this document enumerates. Holding developers accountable and on that basis deciding not to purchase their game nor support them is, in turn, entirely the customer's choice and nobody else's.
The toxicity displayed over the last week has a far greater impact on the PC platform than a two-person developer signing an exclusivity deal with a launcher/storefront.
 

Siresly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,647
We Want Your Messages of Support for the Ooblets Devs

Hey folks,
Last week the creators of whimsical life simulation Ooblets were subject to a torrent of harassment after they announced they had signed a deal with Epic to cover the cost of development in return for exclusivity on the Epic Game Store. Regardless of how you feel about the platform in question, the way in which certain elements within the gaming community responded is utterly defenceless.

It also stands in opposition to everything Noclip stands for.

Noclip was started to create a bridge of empathy between devs & players. To help gamers understand the process of games creation and to consider that developers are people. By getting developers to open up about their process and allow players into their creative vision. But moments like this are a large part of why so many people leave development. Criticism and harassment have no common ground, and sadly too many people within the games community cannot seem to see where one begins and another ends - or perhaps they'd rather not know.

So how can we combat this negativity and help support these developers? Well, all I know is video, but it appears to be a pretty powerful form of communication. So I figured we could make a video of support to publish on the channel that might remind them (and other developers) that for every person harassing them there are hundreds more people pulling for them.

So if you like our work, appreciate devs and/or just want to push against the tide of negativity that too often plagues our community - take a minute to record a short message of support on your phone or camera and send it to:

----> POSTCARDS @ NOCLIP.VIDEO <-----

It can be as short as "Best of luck with the rest of development" or a few sentences about the game and what you like about it. But please send something positive, reaffirming, and powerful! Feel free to attach to an email, use Dropbox, Google Drive or whatever works.

And we don't just mean game players. We want messages from you developers too!

I'll edit all your messages into a big video-postcard of support for the devs which we'll publish publicly. Let's come together to remind developers that there are thousands of us who appreciate them and their work.

If you have any questions feel free to leave them in the comments below.

But please, don't just read this a move on with your day. Pick up your phone and record something. This is a real moment where we can come together to support developers and push back against the negativity that too often drives the conversation within out community.

So please...
GET FILMING! GET EMAILING! FOR DEVS!
Thanks so much,
Danny
 
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Swenhir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
507
Yeah, but that's the point. Do that. Please, everyone, do exactly that. That's what developers are even saying themselves. There would be no outrage if that was the simple consequence. But, right now, "holding developers accountable" doesn't mean "Well, I'm just not gonna buy the game, then". It means "Well, I guess I have to attack their integrity at best or be a part of a week-long, constant harassment campaign at worst".

But there's another thing here, too: This "holding developers accountable" is exactly the kind of entitlement that's the basis for all of this. The developers of Ooblets are two people. Two perfectly normal people, fans of video games, who happen to try to make one themselves. Two people who just lost their publishing partner after they were bought out by Microsoft. Two people who have zero guarantee that they will make any of their investments back. Two people who got the chance to not only get all the money they need to finish development but even get all the money they need to make their money back - simply for releasing the game on another, free launcher.

There is literally zero ground for ANYONE to hold these two people "accountable" for anything that is happening in the industry at large. It's a little as if someday, for whatever reason (maybe you decide to work on a small game yourself, who knows!), 10.000 people decide to comb through your post history on Era because everyone decided YOU now represent gaming at large and everything that's wrong with the industry is on you and your refusal to engage with all the possible future customers you might have had in the future.
We are in agreement. Criticize, write decently-reasoned posts, let them know. Harass them, death threats, porn spam, what the fuck is wrong with you? You however loose me at "entitlement". I could also use that term in saying that developers are acting awfully entitled to take these moneyhats and believe they deserve sales with no consequences for their actions. They aren't the only gamedevs out there. They aren't the only two-man team struggling to make it. A lot of other indies rely on the PC's openness, on kickstarter and who are finding it harder and harder to make people believe them when they say they won't take an Epic exclusivity deal.

My point is this : you have no basis to deny people the right to boycott studios that have taken exclusivity deals on the reasoned basis that those deals will hurt everyone on the PC platform. You can disagree with them. You can choose to misrepresent the issue as "it's just a launcher". You however can't call them entitled.

Accountable for what? What misdeeds have the developers done other than release the game on a different store?
If you will kindly read what I wrote and if you have the time, skim through that document linked above, your questions will be answered.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,844
Before a problem can be addressed an honest assessment needs to be done. ive never really been huge into console gaming so maybe ive missed it but i dont think ive ever seen anything like whats happened here with any game console. The closest was probably when Final Fantasy VII went to Playstation.
An honest assessment would be that a relatively small number of PC gamers were abusive to a developer. But such over-reaction and abuse is not specific to PC gaming communities - witness the controversies over “ageing up” certain characters in Japanese games for Western release, or the DoA censorship issue (just off the top of my head). Nerd culture, and gaming specifically, is ripe for right-wing extremist recruitment, as such abuse mixed with obsession is a perfect petri dish for political hate in the future.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
922
Pakistan
The toxicity displayed over the last week has a far greater impact on the PC platform than a two-person developer signing an exclusivity deal with a launcher/storefront.
Do we really need to compare which event was more toxic than the other? These are sensitive issues being discussed right now and iam not sure if we can do this 'which one was the more bigger deal than the other' competition over toxic events. Its disgusting.

The end result is that they didn't deserve the harassment and death threats no matter what. PERIOD.
 

water_wendi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,900
If you will kindly read what I wrote and if you have the time, skim through that document linked above, your questions will be answered.
If its just the EGS criticisms, what if i told you i understand them but am unconcerned about them? You dont like it and its not a bother for me so where do we go from here?

An honest assessment would be that a relatively small number of PC gamers were abusive to a developer. But such over-reaction and abuse is not specific to PC gaming communities - witness the controversies over “ageing up” certain characters in Japanese games for Western release, or the DoA censorship issue (just off the top of my head). Nerd culture, and gaming specifically, is ripe for right-wing extremist recruitment, as such abuse mixed with obsession is a perfect petri dish for political hate in the future.
Oh theres plenty of hate in gaming.. im speaking about exclusivity deals.

Anyway.. will be a while for me to respond further as i have errands to run.
 

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,556
The truth that nobody wants to engage with is that shutting up and voting with your wallet usually doesn't work, and riling up the internet hate machine usually does.

How many racists have gotten fired thanks to a Twitter mob? How many women have gotten fired thanks to a subreddit melting down? How many games have changed the way their micro-transactions work thanks to some prolonged online outrage? How many developers have effectively gone into hiding thanks to massive and prolonged hate campaigns?

It's a tool that has been proven effective. Internet hate mobs get results. Not always, but often enough to make them almost self perpetuating.
I all those cases and the EGS stuff are all equivalent to you, I don't know what to tell you.

Though, indeed there's a discussion to be had about "internet mobs" for a lack of better expression to qualify those.
 

ShadowFlare

Member
Oct 28, 2017
92
There’s plenty of threads here saying otherwise, but if that example doesn’t satisfy you, pick another “controversy”.

Spider-Man Puddle Gate.
Graphical “downgrades” for Witcher 3 and Watchdogs.
The Mass Effect 3 ending.
The Pokémon National Dex situation.

Even if there are graphical downgrades...even if the Mass Effect ending did suck (and it did)...even if you are disappointed in not having every Pokémon in the latest Pokémon game - the discourse should never reach where it goes today. My reaction to most of these “controversies” is always “Oh, that kind of sucks” and then I move on with my life to engage with another game or something else entirely. None of these things deserve prolonged whining and gnashing of teeth about, as all of the relevant news is well trodden ground a few days after it comes out.

To use the relevant topic at hand, we all know EGS is lacking a lot of Steams features. At this point, people are either comfortable buying games on it or not. So why do we need to keep rehashing the argument in every thread beyond fueling some sort of self-righteousness?
Great examples, I've been noticing this trend a lot as well. Another gaming topic I feel people are trying to stoke the flames with is with MTX in games, not lootboxes, but paid DLC or costumes. People are aware of these things and have accepted the pros and cons with them, but we keep bringing up the same arguments.

This goes beyond video games to other mediums like movies (Ghostbusters 2016) and TV shows (final season of Game of Thrones). If you talk to people in real life about any of these topics, you'll get measured responses, but on the internet, the discussion is ramped up to the max. I think one reason for this is that people feel that unless you have the hottest take or make the most outlandish statements, you won't be seen or heard. I feel horrible for companies/devs, big or small, that are the target of these attacks because at the end of the day, an actual person has to read and deal with these messages.
 

Swenhir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
507
If its just the EGS criticisms, what if i told you i understand them but am unconcerned about them? You dont like it and its not a bother for me so where do we go from here?
I leave you be, like any sane person would. But that wasn't why I replied to you. You asked :

Accountable for what? What misdeeds have the developers done other than release the game on a different store?
I only gave you the arguments behind the criticism and boycott of people who are bothered by Epic's stomping around the PC ecosystem.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,844
If its just the EGS criticisms, what if i told you i understand them but am unconcerned about them? You dont like it and its not a bother for me so where do we go from here?
That's fine. Some here do decide to go into threads and post their indifference, disregarding other's concerns, but I honestly don't get that, and assume you wouldn't do that.

Oh theres plenty of hate in gaming.. im speaking about exclusivity deals.
Ah. It does happen in consoles - Rise of the Tomb Raider, Bayonetta 2 and SFV all had a certain amount of anger from consumers, though I'm not too into console gaming, so couldn't say how much.
 
May 25, 2019
795
Do we really need to compare which event was more toxic than the other? These are sensitive issues being discussed right now and iam not sure if we can do this 'which one was the more bigger deal than the other' competition over toxic events. Its disgusting.

The end result is that they didn't deserve the harassment and death threats no matter what. PERIOD.
There's nothing in that post about trying to say one is more toxic than the other. I'm saying that the toxicity displayed by certain PC gamers does far more damage to the platform than this indie developer going exclusive to the EGS for a period of time.

As a PC gamer, my goal is to get more people playing on PCs as opposed to consoles. That's really it. When my PS4 friends see the temper tantrums like this, it makes them write off the platform and just put their money towards a PS5 or whatever instead. Ooblets wouldn't even be on their radar.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,336
I get what you're saying but my wider point is that by engaging with this subject as super serious, we are only elevating it to a level way beyond what is required.

Even if the EGS is the worst digital store front in the world, in the end, it is just a digital store front. We long went past the point where this became a rational discussion about some business deals. Where the worst outcome is people not being able to play games as soon as other people.

The fact we have reached harassment and racism isn't a surprise to me because there is precedent. This is what Gamers do. It is baked into our lexicon that we are the underdogs and constantly under attack. The use of language, even from those who would never dream of harassing anyone adds to the growing stream of bile that flows through these debates. Eventually someone gets in the way and gets hurt.

The Ooblets developers sparked this because they were treating it with exactly as much seriousness as it actually deserves, pretty much none. We all have to take some responsibility for the results, not just assume that we can wait for the harassers to return to normality.

You have to create a space where they understand that behavior will not be tolerated.
I just don't see the benefit in telling people that the fact they've taken this seriously is the thing they should stop doing instead of focusing on the legitimately awful actions that they may have chosen to do. Do I agree that language should be mitigated? Of course I do, and you are 100% right in that regard, but I think doing that via telling people to simply not take things seriously is not the way to do it. We need to make sure that we know exactly what language needs to stop because otherwise it's very easy for those who need to listen to fall back into the whole "yeah you just don't want me to criticise Epic thing!"

My criticisms towards that strategy are worsened in my eyes by how many people, including Epic themselves, have chosen to use this harassment not only as an opportunity to condemn the harassment, which is great, but as an opportunity to try and prove why their own side is 'right' as well. Epic put this into their statement:

Epic is working together with many game developers and other partners to build what we believe will be a healthier and more competitive multi-store world for the future
And, to me, that stuck out like a sore thumb; it's a business mission statement in the middle of an otherwise well-done statement condemning the abuse of their partners. So when the message is "we shouldn't take this seriously," I simply don't think that allowing one side to take it seriously (by including unrelated talking points into their own serious arguments) whilst telling the other that they can't take it seriously will work.

As such if we want to create a space where they understand that their behaviour won't be tolerated I think things like that definitely need to be called out alongside the other hyperbolic language because if not then I honestly believe that we will just be 'waiting for the harassers to return to normality.' Considering they love to hide behind normality (go take a look at most of the comments defending that shit, they're very much hiding behind a guise of civility and that's the main way they 'recruit' other people), that is not something that I think is going to happen any time soon.

Oh, and note that none of this applies to the developers themselves, but the people who are fortunate enough to not be actively dealing with all this godawful shit right now. Just wanted to make that clear.
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,336
We are in a thread about a dev getting thousands of death threats and insults

And we're already back to the same song and dance as before.
Seriously, it's ridiculous.

No matter what side of the debate you're on if you bring EGS or the developer's initial blog/comments into this then you are missing the point.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,037
Chesire, UK
I all those cases and the EGS stuff are all equivalent to you, I don't know what to tell you.

Though, indeed there's a discussion to be had about "internet mobs" for a lack of better expression to qualify those.
You don't see the similarities between the crusade against lootboxes and worries about what EGS means for the industry? Or maybe the anger towards the exploitation of developers via crunch and the rage directed at EGS? You see no similarity in the tactics used by those trying to get people fired for being a racist, or being a woman, to those used by people trying to get EGS's business decisions changed?

This isn't about equivalence.

The Internet hate mob as a tool is well established by this point. Beyond that, the idea of the boycott, or the mass letter writing campaign, or sanctions in general is far older. Combatting the hate and anger involved is not going to be advanced by deriding the effectiveness of direct action.

Saying "shut up and vote with your wallets" is simply misguided, especially in the age of social media where engagement metrics are king.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
922
Pakistan
There's nothing in that post about trying to say one is more toxic than the other. I'm saying that the toxicity displayed by certain PC gamers does far more damage to the platform than this indie developer going exclusive to the EGS for a period of time.

As a PC gamer, my goal is to get more people playing on PCs as opposed to consoles. That's really it. When my PS4 friends see the temper tantrums like this, it makes them write off the platform and just put their money towards a PS5 or whatever instead. Ooblets wouldn't even be on their radar.
Honestly, even if you bring the damage to the platform topic, the point/impression by the anti-EGS people which has been driven and pushed again and again has always been how Epic games and Tim Sweeny, NOT the developers, are clearly aren't the ones doing the damaging the platform. The ones simply solely blaming the developers for the EGS debacle are the ones who are also are more than likely involved in this disgusting campaign.

Also again what you said is true, whenever a certain sect of gamers whether they're on PC, PS4, Xbox, etc conduct in such behavior, the whole platform gets blamed for it, i get that but its something we just gotta fight against and stop it without even remotely putting a stop to the constructive and rightful criticism of issues like the EGS. If your friends write off PC due to this then they are hypocrites tbh because events on this scale have occurred within communities of other platforms as well which they still use. Thats all what iam trying to say.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,372
This is a great post. We need to start not tolerating this type of nonsense on Era.
Era is my main site, I enjoy the content and discussion. But at the end of the day it is still a business and many of the moderator's are volunteers (I believe?).

They do not want to alienate their passionate posters when it deals with topics that a majority of their posters like to discuss (i.e positive Steam, Sony threads, negative Stadia, Epic).

I'm not a PC gamer but read almost every egs thread here because they are constantly derailed and the posters are quite heated.

I cannot fault any dev that takes a deal to ensure their company has guaranteed revenue and can continue to work on new projects with less stress
 
May 25, 2019
795
User banned (2 weeks): ignoring staff post, off-topic trolling, derailing
Honestly, even if you bring the damage to the platform topic, the point/impression by the anti-EGS people which has been driven and pushed again and again has always been how Epic games and Tim Sweeny, NOT the developers, are clearly aren't the ones doing the damaging the platform. The ones simply solely blaming the developers for the EGS debacle are the ones who are also are more than likely involved in this disgusting campaign.

Also again what you said is true, whenever a certain sect of gamers whether they're on PC, PS4, Xbox, etc conduct in such behavior, the whole platform gets blamed for it, i get that but its something we just gotta fight against and stop it without even remotely putting a stop to the constructive and rightful criticism of issues like the EGS. If your friends write off PC due to this then they are hypocrites tbh because events on this scale have occurred within communities of other platforms as well which they still use. Thats all what iam trying to say.
Are there toxic communities in other platforms? Sure. But their current platform is one they are comfortable with, and it's already an uphill battle getting anyone to switch platforms. Some of them are just looking for reasons not to take the plunge, whether its financial, social, ease of use, etc. We don't need to give them more pause. Sometimes empathy is needed instead of judgement.

And also, this "constructive and rightful criticism" angle seems to be one that conveniently glosses over a person's chosen platform. There's a Steam zero-day just disclosed today that Valve has ignored and I don't see a thread on it or PC people rushing to talk about the security risks of having Steam on their computers. If it were a zero-day in EGS where Epic ignored the researcher, we would have twenty pages on it by now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,532
U.S.
Unless you actively harassed people over it or condoned harassment when it happened, you're not being attacked at all.

It's not an attack on an entire community. It's an attack on the people using this as an excuse to be the worst of the worst.

It isn't always about you.
When someone says, "People didnt flood their channel and harass the devs because Ooblets wasnt coming for Switch or PS4", what is that supposed to imply?
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,337
And also, this "constructive and rightful criticism" angle seems to be one that conveniently glosses over a person's chosen platform. There's a Steam zero-day just disclosed today that Valve has ignored and I don't see a thread on it or PC people rushing to talk about the security risks of having Steam on their computers. If it were a zero-day in EGS where Epic ignored the researcher, we would have twenty pages on it by now.
So do you understand the issue or do you not? Because you were asking about it in the OT and now post like you understand what this even means.

Also please refrain from derailing this thread. This is about the Statement by Epic in response to the harrassment the Ooblet devs received.
 
May 25, 2019
795
So do you understand the issue or do you not? Because you were asking about it in the OT and now post like you understand what this even means.

Also please refrain from derailing this thread. This is about the Statement by Epic in response to the harrassment the Ooblet devs received.
The point is about the constructive and rightful criticism angle itself being a weak plank to build your platform on when trying to explain away EGS hate. The fact that everybody in the community sees a story where Valve could be rightly criticized for something yet fail to do so is empirical evidence.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,746
The point is about the constructive and rightful criticism angle itself being a weak plank to build your platform on when trying to explain away EGS hate. The fact that everybody in the community sees a story where Valve could be rightly criticized for something yet fail to do so is empirical evidence.
Holy hell, the community criticizes Valve all the time and if you were there for more than trolling you would notice it. The fact nobody answered is because you were clearly confrontational and the exploit requires you already being compromised or physical access to the computer to make the initial modification he made.

And lets move past this and keep this topic for what is important: nobody deserves being treated like that, and people who do death threads or harrassment have no place in the community.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
922
Pakistan
Are there toxic communities in other platforms? Sure. But their current platform is one they are comfortable with, and it's already an uphill battle getting anyone to switch platforms. Some of them are just looking for reasons not to take the plunge, whether its financial, social, ease of use, etc. We don't need to give them more pause. Sometimes empathy is needed instead of judgement.

And also, this "constructive and rightful criticism" angle seems to be one that conveniently glosses over a person's chosen platform. There's a Steam zero-day just disclosed today that Valve has ignored and I don't see a thread on it or PC people rushing to talk about the security risks of having Steam on their computers. If it were a zero-day in EGS where Epic ignored the researcher, we would have twenty pages on it by now.
Well what can i say then? Its extremely unfortunate that this even occurred. Nobody sane wanted this to happen It not only encourages harassment but also paints the PC platform in a bad light overall, so i guess in terms of new console to PC converts, you gets some you lose some.

Also what you just pointed out is indeed not a small thing at all and valve deserves criticism not only on this front but also as you know their slow to react to steam's other bugs/blunders and they take ages to fix their shit. Honestly they do get criticised here whenever its deserved and whenever they commit blunders, this issue will likely get fixed in a few days though but gotdamn valve is slow as hell to fix stuff sometimes.
Epic's each and every mistake does get criticized because they keep on committing blunders on a consistent basis and honestly they STILL have yet to add a gotdamn shopping cart to their store which among other many features should've been their at launch. So if you ask why epic's every single mistake/blunder gets criticized and pointed out? Thats because they've shown that they've been incompetent at doing or managing the smallest of things when it comes to the EGS. They seriously need to fix their shit.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
570
I just don't see the benefit in telling people that the fact they've taken this seriously is the thing they should stop doing instead of focusing on the legitimately awful actions that they may have chosen to do. Do I agree that language should be mitigated? Of course I do, and you are 100% right in that regard, but I think doing that via telling people to simply not take things seriously is not the way to do it. We need to make sure that we know exactly what language needs to stop because otherwise it's very easy for those who need to listen to fall back into the whole "yeah you just don't want me to criticise Epic thing!"

My criticisms towards that strategy are worsened in my eyes by how many people, including Epic themselves, have chosen to use this harassment not only as an opportunity to condemn the harassment, which is great, but as an opportunity to try and prove why their own side is 'right' as well. Epic put this into their statement:



And, to me, that stuck out like a sore thumb; it's a business mission statement in the middle of an otherwise well-done statement condemning the abuse of their partners. So when the message is "we shouldn't take this seriously," I simply don't think that allowing one side to take it seriously (by including unrelated talking points into their own serious arguments) whilst telling the other that they can't take it seriously will work.

As such if we want to create a space where they understand that their behaviour won't be tolerated I think things like that definitely need to be called out alongside the other hyperbolic language because if not then I honestly believe that we will just be 'waiting for the harassers to return to normality.' Considering they love to hide behind normality (go take a look at most of the comments defending that shit, they're very much hiding behind a guise of civility and that's the main way they 'recruit' other people), that is not something that I think is going to happen any time soon.

Oh, and note that none of this applies to the developers themselves, but the people who are fortunate enough to not be actively dealing with all this godawful shit right now. Just wanted to make that clear.
Sounds like we are mostly singing from the same hymn sheet. I agree we should be calling out the terrible actions but that is the end point.

If we don't create a breeding ground for terrible actors to use horrific tactics then we might cut off this type of behavior before it begins.

I focus on the seriousness of it all, as a step needs to be taken away, for people to get some perspective on what we are actually talking about.

That's how the impetus falls on all of us to moderate our language and realise that platform exclusivity should not be a particularly emotive subject.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,188
I mean, this isn't a fun answer, but it's a multi-faceted one: gamers have a long history of getting things done through anger.

Like, remove the societal and reputational aspects of gaming from the equation for a moment. It's not a galloping shock to say people who played video games generally felt looked down upon and thus had a hard time developing social skills causing a feedback loop which most interpreted as oppression on them. That kind of goes without saying and we all know it.

So let's look at the different angle about the Jack Thompson days. It was the burgeoning days of accepted internet use, where everyone was on AIM and Livejournal and you could find those communities on Penny-Arcade's forum or what have you. People reasoned that, in society's latest attack on the internet, the logical thing to do was to make an opposition untenable. In reality, Jack Thompson just faded into irrelevancy through his own actions and society losing interest. To the gaming community, he was crushed by a strong wave.

So it kind of kept happening, whether the situation warranted it or not. This Xbox One thing is bad! This lady is making videos calling ME sexist! Microtransactions! Multiplayer games! Censorship in localization! Yearly games! Esports!

It works enough times that it ingrained itself into the culture. Then it combined itself with the video game community's inherent gatekeeping and competitiveness, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other in factors of gaming. You don't care about this thing as much as I do? Well of course you don't, I'm a much bigger gamer than you. That shit happens in Era communities in different words all the fucking time.

And of course, when you have a "team" to defend, that just makes you more upset at any other teams out there.

It leads to people using legitimate criticisms as jumping off points to be incredibly angry. The point isn't to criticize or improve something, it's to take it down. It's to show that this thing that is an affront to you should not have ever existed. And the way you do that is to get upset.
I just want to say thank you for this post. It’s something gamers really need some introspection about I think and really we need to curb the levels of overreaction and indignant anger when we see it pop up.
 
Sep 14, 2018
792
I'm starting to think people don't read staff posts for some reason.

If people can't air their grivances about egs here because it's a separate topic then people baiting responses about said topic should be getting banned for derailing.

Man, I'd clean up this place in no time.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,520
Unless you actively harassed people over it or condoned harassment when it happened, you're not being attacked at all.

It's not an attack on an entire community. It's an attack on the people using this as an excuse to be the worst of the worst.

It isn't always about you.
This
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Unless you actively harassed people over it or condoned harassment when it happened, you're not being attacked at all.

It's not an attack on an entire community. It's an attack on the people using this as an excuse to be the worst of the worst.

It isn't always about you.
I totally understand your point, but it's hard to not to feel like a lot of people who are (purposefully?) not being very specific with their language are trying to paint with a broader brush than is necessary.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,069
You however loose me at "entitlement". I could also use that term in saying that developers are acting awfully entitled to take these moneyhats and believe they deserve sales with no consequences for their actions. They aren't the only gamedevs out there. They aren't the only two-man team struggling to make it. A lot of other indies rely on the PC's openness, on kickstarter and who are finding it harder and harder to make people believe them when they say they won't take an Epic exclusivity deal.
You realize how little you saying harassment is bad means when you post stuff like this?

This directly ties into the toxicity that got these devs harassed
 

Plum

The Fallen
May 31, 2018
8,336
Sounds like we are mostly singing from the same hymn sheet. I agree we should be calling out the terrible actions but that is the end point.

If we don't create a breeding ground for terrible actors to use horrific tactics then we might cut off this type of behavior before it begins.

I focus on the seriousness of it all, as a step needs to be taken away, for people to get some perspective on what we are actually talking about.

That's how the impetus falls on all of us to moderate our language and realise that platform exclusivity should not be a particularly emotive subject.
The thing is I've found that once people have to say "this isn't serious stop being so angry," that it's already 'begun', and at that point you're telling an already-angry person to 'calm down' which, frankly, rarely works. Or worse you're telling a slightly annoyed person to 'calm down' which I've found only makes them angrier. When you're referring to moderating the language in communities such as this, instead of on other places where the more disgusting examples of harassment occur, I don't think that's the best of ideas.

I honestly think it's better to just accept that some people will inevitably get angry at this and then focus on how we can make it clear to them that being angry, annoyed, whatever is fine, but going so far as to actively lash out and harass developers is absolutely not. It focuses on the behaviour instead of how their feelings are wrong, and as such it gets right to the point of what their issue is.

And I think we just need to stop using harassment as a way to 'win' an argument no matter what side those people are on, and we need to call out people who do try that. To me saying "that's horrible, but the developers did make an angry post" and "that's horrible, why are people doing this over just a lanucher?" are incredibly similar because, in the end, they're both heavily implying that the harassment is or would be OK in context; it's just that the former points to the actual context whereas the latter points to a hypothetical context.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,160
Unless you actively harassed people over it or condoned harassment when it happened, you're not being attacked at all.

It's not an attack on an entire community. It's an attack on the people using this as an excuse to be the worst of the worst.

It isn't always about you.
I think this is only partly true. There have been several instances of people expanding this abhorrent behavior of the harassers to the entire anti-EGS camp or even worse to PC gamers as a whole.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,342
Yeah, but that's the point. Do that. Please, everyone, do exactly that. That's what developers are even saying themselves. There would be no outrage if that was the simple consequence. But, right now, "holding developers accountable" doesn't mean "Well, I'm just not gonna buy the game, then". It means "Well, I guess I have to attack their integrity at best or be a part of a week-long, constant harassment campaign at worst".

But there's another thing here, too: This "holding developers accountable" is exactly the kind of entitlement that's the basis for all of this. The developers of Ooblets are two people. Two perfectly normal people, fans of video games, who happen to try to make one themselves. Two people who just lost their publishing partner after they were bought out by Microsoft. Two people who have zero guarantee that they will make any of their investments back. Two people who got the chance to not only get all the money they need to finish development but even get all the money they need to make their money back - simply for releasing the game on another, free launcher.

There is literally zero ground for ANYONE to hold these two people "accountable" for anything that is happening in the industry at large. It's a little as if someday, for whatever reason (maybe you decide to work on a small game yourself, who knows!), 10.000 people decide to comb through your post history on Era because everyone decided YOU now represent gaming at large and everything that's wrong with the industry is on you and your refusal to engage with all the possible future customers you might have had in the future. And you're just thinking "Wait, what the fuck, I'm just working on this project of mine, what the fuck is going on?".

These people aren't Bobby Kotick or Tim Sweeney. They aren't some weird, abstract "other", they aren't people in power who hold any kind of influence or sway over anyone. They are not responsible for any business decisions you might like or not like.
good post, and it makes it very clear that a lot of the ppl going after the devs, while they may think they are contributing to the larger project of anti-EGS sentiment, are largely just engaging in projecting their feelings onto the devs who are in no way prepared to handle it.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,520
I think this is only partly true. There have been several instances of people expanding this abhorrent behavior of the harassers to the entire anti-EGS camp or even worse to PC gamers as a whole.
If you or someone you talk to is being roped into that group I feel like the default response shouldn't be to lash out defensively but to prompt an introspective question of "what am I saying or doing that's getting me lumped in with these people?".
 

Lentic

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,308
I fundamentally don’t understand why people who supposedly play games for enjoyment, leisure, and escapism are so prone to anger. Maybe it’s a generational thing. Or just a human thing.

We all need to be less angry in general.
I notice it a lot with “otaku” types. It’s people who find one thing that defines them and obsess over it. If you ever criticize their hobby, they take it as a personal insult. It works the same way within their hobby as well. If something like EGS happens within their field of expertise they absolutely lose it. I think this is why people notice trends like “anime avatars”. It’s because those types of people are usually obsessive and very sensitive.

It’s gotten worse with social media and how those kinds of people can find echo chambers to support their views. That’s why it’s very important to detach yourself from entertainment/hobbies and develop your own personal identity.
 

Shadout

Member
Oct 27, 2017
639
False information campaigns are only going to get worse. I wonder how, or if, we will ever be able to adjust to it. That is a real, meaningful threat to society.
It is becoming easier for people to express their hate, and we live in a time where increasingly large parts of society seem to be accepting and even supporting this hate and anger. Attacking any person simply because they did something you disagree with is abhorrent. You can disagree with their decisions, you can dislike the companies they represent, but attacking the person is just sad.
At least the devs seem to he handling the situation reasonably well.