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Epic’s Statement on Misinformation & Abuse [See Staff Post] [UP: Devs release statement]

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,387
If you or someone you talk to is being roped into that group I feel like the default response shouldn't be to lash out defensively but to prompt an introspective question of "what am I saying or doing that's getting me lumped in with these people?".
Introspection never hurts, but this response assumes that some of the sweeping generalizations being made about PC gamers or people critical of Epic are in good faith or directed to an individual in particular.
Please do not speak to me again.
I don't think he intended any disrespect. That user has a history of informative posts made in good faith and shutting him down like that when a PM would've sufficed comes across as needlessly disrespectful and hostile.
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,695
I totally understand your point, but it's hard to not to feel like a lot of people who are (purposefully?) not being very specific with their language are trying to paint with a broader brush than is necessary.
No one can truly know your perspective on this, obviously, but I would ask you to consider whether you are reading people's intent correctly, and whether it's worth escalating in response. Otherwise this sort of thing just leads to a ratcheting effect where people begin to cling more tightly to an opinion and make it part of their identity, which then makes a wider swath of discussion and criticism feel like personal attacks, which then leads them to cling more tightly to that opinion, which then makes a wider swath of discussion and criticism feel like personal attacks, etc.
 

Yushi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
155
Honestly all because of the good old mentality of:

The Customer is always right

I'm sure some of you in retail all have experience with this ''potential customer'' and their aggresive behavior because of some dumb reason or their completely unjustified/ out of ass excuse.
People just go crazy when you tell them NO

My favorite in my field :

Client: What do you mean you dont have ailse seat!
Me: Well sir, we had a succesful renewal and new membership season and they were all sold for full or half season. We dont have any ailse available to non-membership packages this year.
Client: * throws a fit *

It happens every day for me. I don't care how much your daugther wants to see Billie Eilish, the shows sold out.

I don't care who you are, everyone get the same fair service. If I really like you, and we've had multiple in person conversation, then I might give u a bit more.

Social media as only made it worst for people to vent their stupid anger over stupid shit like this.

A restaurant in my neighborhood had a negative review, the guy saying how horrible and a rip-off it was. The place wasn't even open yet!
 

Launchpad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,201
Yeah the toxicity of the internet in general is getting out of hand to serious degrees. I don’t like what Epic is doing but I’m just not buying the games on their store, no need to vilify them or the devs for this. I’m at least happy that a lot of devs will get to stay alive and making games even if it means I buy their games a year or so later.
 

Redcrayon

Zoinks!
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
6,158
UK
Official Staff Communication
Enough with the personal back-and-forths and get back on topic. Use the ignore list if you have to and don't escalate provocations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,413
Yeah the toxicity of the internet in general is getting out of hand to serious degrees. I don’t like what Epic is doing but I’m just not buying the games on their store, no need to vilify them or the devs for this. I’m at least happy that a lot of devs will get to stay alive and making games even if it means I buy their games a year or so later.
Yeah. I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the internet wrong and just need to focus more on curating a good twitter feed or just abandon forums completely in favor of slack/discord chats. Like again, it's not just this latest Epic episode where we can start looking around and wondering "have things escalated too much?" It's literally any topic where basically the correct approach is seemingly to be passionate and never, ever back down. When the rhetoric level was "I've identified what I think is a problem and I'd like to discuss it" I was completely on board. But over the years when that approach doesn't yield the desired results the rhetoric turns more to "it's not enough to want change, we have to make that change happen."

And sometimes, maybe the topic of discussion really is that important. Maybe you're right to demand change. Maybe it's time to stand on the ledge and threaten to jump if things don't change. Or maybe it isn't. And maybe the correct course is for someone else to agree with them in principle but try to talk them off the ledge. But increasingly I feel like this isn't enough. That's not going to get results. In fact, you should be on the ledge with them or else you're just part of the problem as well.

Just from a mental health standpoint I feel like this is draining and unhealthy. Everything is flagged with an exclamation point denoting high priority. The stakes are always high. The discussion is always serious. If you're not here to pick a side and take a real stand on the issue then get the fuck out.
 
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wakuboys

Member
Jun 27, 2019
25
From what I can tell, there is nothing especially bad about specifically the gaming community in this regard and the harassment the devs have gotten and will continue to get is the result of how the internet works now. Perhaps made worse by a combination of anonymity, increasing efficiencies of communication, and the ease of which one can affirm their opinions through confirmation bias and political/opinion bubbles, the "internet hate mob," as other examples have shown, is absolutely not restricted to the gaming community, nor restricted to online harassment. If we truly want to stop this farce where people, initially deserving or not, get harassed way past the point of reason, we have to start by looking inwards by examining times where we participated in these internet mobs, instead of criticizing the communities in which they take place in (typically when it's convenient) or moving on.

(A really good video that I drew inspiration from is CGPGrey's "This Video Will Make You Angry" where he talks about how ideas are spread through the internet)

 

Zefah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,506
No one can truly know your perspective on this, obviously, but I would ask you to consider whether you are reading people's intent correctly, and whether it's worth escalating in response. Otherwise this sort of thing just leads to a ratcheting effect where people begin to cling more tightly to an opinion and make it part of their identity, which then makes a wider swath of discussion and criticism feel like personal attacks, which then leads them to cling more tightly to that opinion, which then makes a wider swath of discussion and criticism feel like personal attacks, etc.
As long as "don't escalate" isn't being used to mean "don't respond at all" then I would agree with this sentiment.
 
User Banned (3 Days): Ignoring Staff Post
Introspection never hurts, but this response assumes that some of the sweeping generalizations being made about PC gamers or people critical of Epic are in good faith or directed to an individual in particular.

I don't think he intended any disrespect. That user has a history of informative posts made in good faith and shutting him down like that when a PM would've sufficed comes across as needlessly disrespectful and hostile.
No no that user doesn’t have a history of informative posts made in good faith and his squeals of “no I’m the one who is being harassed” are sickening.
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,387
No no that user doesn’t have a history of informative posts made in good faith and his squeals of “no I’m the one who is being harassed” are sickening.
I'm a big TNG fan and tend to check out EGS threads so I typically notice his posts and for months now I've never read anything that wasn't generally patient and constructive. I must be missing something as the comment I defended wasn't inflammatory either, and certainly not something I would construe as claiming to be harassed, or denying the harassment of others. If he has made statements along those lines elsewhere, I must have missed them. Not about to search post histories so I'll take you at your word if he has said something like that, but it's bullshit to deny his history of informative, good faith, or constructive posts as if I pulled that out of my ass just for kicks.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
Edit: You know what, this is probably back-seat modding, so forget it.
 
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Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,215
Chesire, UK
Gamergate is literally proof that you are wrong here my dude.
Sad/Rabbid Puppies. "Comicsgate". The harassment and hatred of Brie Larson, Daisy Ridley, etc. The entirety of the "Alt-Right" movement.

GamerGate is sadly far from unique.

That's not to say problems in the gaming community shouldn't be specifically tackled, or that it's wrong to highlight them, but that narrowing your focus and dismissing wider problems can lead to unhelpful or misguided approaches.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,442
GG is unique in the damage it did, the lies that started it, the unwitting dupes who legit thought it was about ethics, the lacklustre industry response, and the mix of mealy-mouthed media condemnation and media backing.

Comicsgate, Puppies, Daisy Ridley, Captain Marvel are all less than GG, since the response was different - Puppies, for instance, was just shut the fuck down by writers and awards bodies. Comics are just whiny fanboys who can’t deal, but they’re genuinely small potatoes.

GG was (and still is) a blight on the industry in so many ways. And that’s partially due to the extremist Gamers(tm) being way worse than the extremist fans in other areas.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,303
Sad/Rabbid Puppies. "Comicsgate". The harassment and hatred of Brie Larson, Daisy Ridley, etc. The entirety of the "Alt-Right" movement.

GamerGate is sadly far from unique.

That's not to say problems in the gaming community shouldn't be specifically tackled, or that it's wrong to highlight them, but that narrowing your focus and dismissing wider problems can lead to unhelpful or misguided approaches.
The immediate reaction to comicsgate, the sad/rabid puppies, was industry wide condemnation

The gaming industry celebrates still some members, gamergate took hold where no other movement in entertainment did flat out.

Gamergate was Alt-Right Beta test.

You can't compare how the gaming industry reacted to any other because only the gaming industry allowed hate to set up shop.

Hugo awards literally changed their rules and did two years of no prizing. Comicsgate is a fucking joke that no one gives any credibility to. Gaming industry gave credibility to GG.

It's undeniable. Why do you think so many GG names went on to be big Alt-right names.