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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Didn't see a thread on this but apparently there have been some misconceptions regarding the PS5 Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo, suggesting it can only run on PS5. Brian Karis decided to put those rumors to bed:



Full livestream here:



Some notes from the Land of Nanite portion of the livestream:

  • The goal (dream) with Nanite was to remove the notion of technical budgets and constraints for 3D Artists so that they can just focus the art itself, regardless of quality
  • The virtualization of geometry is a lot harder to implement in practice than the virtualization of textures due to factors like rendering cost
  • GPU driven pipeline for Nanite, which allows optimizations like reduced draw call requirements per scene
  • Draw calls are per material, not per object. All opaque geometry can now be rendered with just a single draw call
  • In this demo, pixel sized triangles used software rasterizer, as it's up to 3x faster than hardware rasterizer. Big triangles use hw rasterizer (rasterizer chosen on per cluster basis)
  • Average frame for demo was ~1400p upscaled to 4k via temporal upsampling
  • Nearly zero CPU time and very little CPU cost. Most of the work handled by the GPU
  • Proprietary compression tech to keep file sizes in check (the immense amount of geometry would take up too much space otherwise)
  • All Nanite data on disk (compressed) was 6.14 GB in total
  • Texture data far larger than geometry data
  • 16k x 16k virtualized shadow maps work in a similar way to Nanite by only rendering shadow detail that's perceptible (shadow pixels)
  • The scenes shown are demonstrated using a free roam camera to show that scripting is not necessary and that there isn't any masked loading
  • Entire level was loaded into memory (mainly for the purposes of showing that the infamous crack was not used to hide streaming)
  • Self-shadowing makes it easier to see the increased fidelity of actual geometry compared to normal maps
  • Demo shown is not using world partitioning (the tech hadn't fully developed by the time the demo was made)
  • The closer the camera is to a given mesh, the more faithful the geometry will be relative to the source model (the delta in fidelity is practically imperceptible without visualization data)
  • 128 triangles per cluster. Cluster sizes on screen are roughly the same, regardless of viewing distance, which allows the triangles to have similarly stable counts on screen
  • On average, there weren't much more than 20M tris rendered on screen, even with billions of triangles from source geometry. The tri count will scale with resolution
  • Nanite supports hard surface model meshes as well, not just organic assets from megascans/photogrammetry
  • The ring on the portal at the end of the demo is not actually a unique mesh, but made from instanced geometry like the statues shown earlier in the demo

And finally, a note from Karis:



Thank you everyone that joined!

Quick note: last year's demo content I showed in the editor was not PIE so does not have the same lighting which is activated by blueprints to hand tune sun light for different areas. So the lighting surely didn't look as nice as the original.



Same goes for missing interactive elements, VFX, etc that get triggered through gameplay scripting. Also I was in 1080p for video streaming from my WFH machine which doesn't have a capture card. UE5 has gotten *substantially* better since we showed this demo. No "downgrades".
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Strictly speaking, Nanite can run on any current system. Everyone I've talked to who knows their shit about stuff like this say as much. Nanite was no doubt designed for and optimized for PS5 and Series X, but there's really nothing stopping Epic from using it on current-gen systems aside from maybe the storage space for really high-geometry models.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
User Warned: Platform Warring, Drive-by Post
Didn't see a thread on this but apparently there have been some misconceptions regarding the PS5 Lumen in the Land of Nanite demo, suggesting it can only run on PS5. Brian Karis decided to put those rumors to bed:

Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?
 

daninthemix

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,021
Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?
Apparently we do need a new physics model to describe the world made possible by its SSD.
 

Bucéfalo

Banned
May 29, 2020
1,566
But was there any person that seriously thought that this would only run on Ps5? Lol
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,710
I have heard nobody say or suggest this was only possible on PS5, lol.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
The nature of a engine like UE is to be able to run on anything, and they said as much when they revealed it last year. From phones, to consoles and PC.

I guess the surprise was that they used a PS5 to show off their new engine and not a PC or Xbox Series X.
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,493
Indonesia
Don't think I've seen anyone claiming it can only run on PS5 lol. It's more like the PS5 can run this demo.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Strictly speaking, Nanite can run on any current system. Everyone I've talked to who knows their shit about stuff like this say as much.

It's definitely designed to be scalable. I'm not sure why people thought otherwise.

Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?

Lol, I hope this doesn't derail the thread 😂

What? Who thought this would only be possible on ps5

Just look at the comments for the youtube video in the OP accusing Brian of lying since the scripts are turned off. It's quite sad, actually.

I have heard nobody say or suggest this was only possible on PS5, lol.
Nobody. It's bullshit.
But was there any person that seriously thought that this would only run on Ps5? Lol
In wondering about that myself. Can't remember any posts like that here on ERA.
Don't think I've seen anyone claiming it can only run on PS5 lol. It's more like the PS5 can run this demo.

Karis responded to the misconceptions on the livestream precisely because of the baseless complaints. If people weren't saying it, he wouldn't be responding to it.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Pretty sure there are PC rigs out there that would still obliterate a PS5 performance wise, so I'm not sure where that misconception came. Unreal 5 is meant to be a multi-platform engine after all.

Perhaps the misconception is more around the specific demo running exactly as it did on a Series X. No idea how that would fare or if it would run better or worse.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
It's definitely designed to be scalable. I'm not sure why people thought otherwise.
Yeah, I'm not even sure why it's only supported on next-gen systems when Nanite is basically a massive improvement in terms of rendering efficiency for rigid geometry (aka most of any given scene) and doesn't require an SSD if you're staying within the system's memory budget, the SSD is really just for virtual memory purposes and rapid on the fly loading.
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,017
It's definitely designed to be scalable. I'm not sure why people thought otherwise.



Lol, I hope this doesn't derail the thread 😂



Just look at the comments for the youtube video in the OP accusing Brian of lying since the scripts are turned off. It's quite sad, actually.







Karis responded to the misconceptions on the livestream precisely because of the baseless complaints. If people weren't saying it, he wouldn't be responding to it.
Not really doubting haha just blown away
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,461
We may have some Era users who think the PS5 SSD won't be caught up to for 5-10 years but as far as I can remember no one thought that demo could only be done on the PS5.

It would be cool seeing it on the Xbox though just to see if there are any differences.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Youtube comments have all kinds of crazy stuff in it. Twitter too, there are wars of all kinds on both.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,124
Imagine a middleware solution that only worked on one system with limited availability?

Anyway, great that they are optimising it further, and the size of the asset data is much lower than some were speculating on here.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Pretty sure there are PC rigs out there that would still obliterate a PS5 performance wise, so I'm not sure where that misconception came. Unreal 5 is meant to be a multi-platform engine after all.

Perhaps the misconception is more around the specific demo running exactly as it did on a Series X. No idea how that would fare or if it would run better or worse.

From my understanding, I think some people thought the IO bottlenecks on PC might've proven to be prohibitive to running the demo. Really it was probably just speculation since the demo wasn't available when UE5 EA released.

Yeah, I'm not even sure why it's only supported on next-gen systems when Nanite is basically a massive improvement in terms of rendering efficiency for rigid geometry (aka most of any given scene) and doesn't require an SSD if you're staying within the system's memory budget, the SSD is really just for virtual memory purposes and rapid on the fly loading.

Well, there's this:



It's a complex question for twitter but in general a game that wants to span high to low needs to be built with low in mind. By that I mean high object count with crazy kitbashing like we've shown probably won't work out. Very high poly meshes which are simplified for low could.

Not really doubting haha just blown away

Haha, I feel you.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
But does it run on a HDD? Sata SSD? Does the insane speed of the PS5 help this demo significantly?
 

NLCPRESIDENT

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,969
Midwest
That is not accurate. Many people in previous threads expressed the opinion that the demo wouldn't be able to run on PC or Xbox without serious compromises.
I don't believe this one bit. How, why, who? Who on this forum would say a multiplat engine can only run on PS5?

I think he just wanted justification to do this project and nothing more.
 
OP
OP

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
But does it run on a HDD?

Yes.


Yes.

Does the insane speed of the PS5 help this demo significantly?

Yes.

Different platforms will have to handle data like this differently. Sony's focus on extremely high IO bandwidth for PS5 is an elegant solution for handling something like Nanite in a console environment. The important factor is that the artists don't have to worry about it, not that it's necessary for the tech to work properly.

Who on this forum would say a multiplat engine can only run on PS5?

The claim was about the demo, not the engine. The demo had only been shown on PS5 before this point.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
I don't believe this one bit. How, why, who? Who on this forum would say a multiplat engine can only run on PS5?

I think he just wanted justification to do this project and nothing more.
When the UE5 footage was shown off, there was such hype around it due to Epic and Sony being together. This lead to some thinking UE5 was made with the PS5 in mind and some took the theoretical peaks of the SSD etc and suggested nothing would match it. Anything less than a full fat PS5 was deemed lesser. The fact no Series X version was shown lead some to think the above.
 

NLCPRESIDENT

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,969
Midwest
Yes.



Yes.



Yes.

Different platforms will have to handle data like this differently. Sony's focus on extremely high IO bandwidth for PS5 is an elegant solution for handling something like Nanite in a console environment. The important factor is that the artists don't have to worry about it, not that it's necessary for the tech to work properly.



The claim was about the demo, not the engine. The demo had only been shown on PS5 before this point.
Oh ok.
When the UE5 footage was shown off, there was such hype around it due to Epic and Sony being together. This lead to some thinking UE5 was made with the PS5 in mind and some took the theoretical peaks of the SSD etc and suggested nothing would match it. Anything less than a full fat PS5 was deemed lesser. The fact no Series X version was shown lead some to think the above.
I believe you and
I remember the hype, but not any crazy claims like that. Nothing worth paying any attention too. People say all types of crazy stuff when they're hyped.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
You mean the company trying to brute force their way into PC gaming, that develops engines they want everyone to use, did not make a demo that only the Sony PS5 (TM) could run?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?
I don't know, I think only the PS5 SSD can figure that out
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,637
Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?
🤣🤣
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,198
Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?

But, but that SSD. There was absolutely nothing™ like it in the PC sphere, which meant the PS5 would be able to play games that just won't be possible on PC!
Even though by the time such games might have even been released, the PC would have exceeded what the PS5 can do with its super drive anyway.

But was there any person that seriously thought that this would only run on Ps5? Lol

If you had read any of the previous threads on the subject, you would think the chances were high.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
But does it run on a HDD? Sata SSD? Does the insane speed of the PS5 help this demo significantly?




A lot of people are seeing contradictions between things he and Epic have said where there are none.

If you have a PC with enough free RAM, file I/O speed becomes less relevant. He was running the demo entirely in-memory on his PC. (That wasn't the case on PS5, I'm sure - the uncompressed geometry size alone would have likely exceeded PS5's game RAM capacity).

On the other hand if you run the second released UE5 demo in a more 'console like' memory scenario on a HDD, you can see how the experience degrades and imagine what might happen with the Lumen demo. It still runs mind you.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Did this misconception come from the usual assortment of technologically illiterate Sony fans who continue to peddle the PlayStation 5 hardware as some mythical platform of dreams that defies measurable and standardised conventions of physics, electronics, and technology and is, for some unexplainable reason, able to just do rendering things that other hardware cannot?
I read more people misunderstanding that the problem isn't to catch PS5 performances but units sold and the homogenous environment around.

But that's a bias as common as using imaginary or marginal quotes to value a reasonable speech, or to ask someone to bring proof you are pretending they exist, like "go read 161718 YT comments to find a correlation".

Also the goal of this Epic guy is more to present his work with other people in the industry, and not to focus on that.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
3,892
ATL
The overview of Nanite was really cool. It seems there is a lot more planned for it even just for the initial 5.0 production release.

I'm really excited for their overview of Luman, and what plans they have to improve it in the future.

Going back to Nanite, if they figure out a proper solution for integrating skinned and deformable meshes in to Nanite, how huge would that be for game developers?
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
But, but that SSD. There was absolutely nothing like it in the PC sphere, which meant the PS5 would be able to play games that just won't be possible on PC!
Even though by the time such games might have even been released, the PC would have exceeded what the PS5 can do with its super drive anyway.
To be fair, its not just about the SSD. Its about the IO subsystem. The real world SSD performance of the PS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and it will take a while for PC to catch up.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,198
To be fair, its not just about the SSD. Its about the IO subsystem. The real world SSD performance of the PS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and it will take a while for PC to catch up.
I have a PS5, and love the lack of loading, but come on. 🤣
The console might be more efficient, but that doesn't mean more capable overall. PCs have relied on brute-forcing many times in the past already.
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
The relevant threads are stil available, you can see for yourself.

Yeah, when it was first shown off the speculation was off the charts. It led to a whole back-and-forth about the speed of PC SSDs, what was available, when the average PC would have it, how it would only make it into PC games once the average PC had a GPU that could support Direct Storage, how the engine could run on PC but the "fly by" at the end would choke it, how Sony and Epic were in bed and the engine was perhaps tailored specifically to PS5, etc. I mean...I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Surely that actually happened. I'm not saying those people weren't crazy, just that they existed.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,190
To be fair, its not just about the SSD. Its about the IO subsystem. The real world SSD performance of the PS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and it will take a while for PC to catch up.
There's nothing about the PS5 that PCs have to catch up to. Before the PS5 even came out, my PC could match it if I had a PCIE 4 drive. And the fact that I didn't just meant that what minor performance difference there would've been would've been made up by RAM.
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
I mean, yes, this was known for a long time but console warriors really don't like to hear it:
https://www.pcgamer.com/unreal-engine-5-tech-demo-pc-performance/

The Unreal Engine 5 tech demo, Lumen in the land of Nanite, has caused quite a bit of excitement since it was released. While we won't be seeing anything using the technology any time soon, and the engine itself won't be dropping until next year, that hasn't stopped a small war erupting between would-be fans of the next-gen consoles.


This escalated after an interview with an engineer from Epic China (which has since been taken down) revealed the demo seen running on the PS5 ran just as well on a laptop. In fact the PC reportedly ran the demo better, with the PS5 managing 30fps at 1440p while the laptop hit 40fps at the same resolution from within the editor itself.

The laptop in question is no slouch mind, featuring Nvidia RTX 2080 graphics and a 970 Evo Plus. Epic's CTO, Kim Libreri, has already confirmed to us that you'll get "pretty good" performance with UE5 running on something like an RTX 2070 Super, but having a more specific performance figure is always good.

However there is still enough leeway like the comments about PS 5 IO being (obviously) the fastest that warriors will continue to push the "UE 5 only works (fully) on PS 5" narrative.
 

Bucéfalo

Banned
May 29, 2020
1,566
But, but that SSD. There was absolutely nothing™ like it in the PC sphere, which meant the PS5 would be able to play games that just won't be possible on PC!
Even though by the time such games might have even been released, the PC would have exceeded what the PS5 can do with its super drive anyway.



If you had read any of the previous threads on the subject, you would think the chances were high.

Yeah, it was a sarcastic question. In Spain forums there were dozens of mad people claiming that, it was just embarrasing.
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
If you have a PC with enough free RAM, file I/O speed becomes less relevant. He was running the demo entirely in-memory on his PC. (That wasn't the case on PS5, I'm sure - the uncompressed geometry size alone would have likely exceeded PS5's game RAM capacity).

On the other hand if you run the second released UE5 demo in a more 'console like' memory scenario on a HDD, you can see how the experience degrades and imagine what might happen with the Lumen demo. It still runs mind you.
He was running the demo entirely in-memory because that is what the UE5 editor does, not so if you build for release.

If you run the second demo on a more "console like" scenario it runs just fine. Of course you will have an I/O bottleneck at some point and the consecuential performance hit, but we are talking about an HDD, the comparison should be with a SATA SSD.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
He was running the demo entirely in-memory becaus that is what the UE5 editor does, not so if you build for release.

Correct. I said that to say, it wasn't entirely in memory on PS5... if it was the IO would indeed be completely irrelevant.

Although speaking to PC benchmarking, if you run the demo, and re-run it, chances are the data will be entirely in memory on subsequent runs, so even if the application isn't holding the data any more, you won't be hitting your storage.

If you run the second demo on a more "console like" scenario it runs just fine. Of course you will have an I/O bottleneck at some point and the consecuential performance hit, but we are talking about an HDD, the comparison should be with a SATA SSD.

I saw your vid, and reproduced with decreasing levels of free memory, and it runs, but the visual pop-in becomes more and more noticeable on a regular HDD as you limit how much free memory windows has to work with. If you want to reproduce a 'console like' RAM scenario you need to try to suppress windows file cache, otherwise you're probably getting a benefit of excess RAM that you just don't have on consoles, even though the application itself might appear to be humming along with a very small memory footprint.

Agree re. SSD - more or less any SSD is fine for the demo. But there's been some talk floating around that a potato HDD will be fine... and it might be, depending on your memory setup, but on a console-like situation, maybe not so much. Not that it matters, we don't currently have Nanite-capable consoles with anything but SSDs (let's see with Switch Pro I guess...), but on the academic point of using the extreme of a mechanical HDD to prove a generality about UE5 I/O, it might be a little more complicated.
 
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