Epic Games Store Discussion

.exe · Jan 12, 2019

Pixieking said:
Needlessly limiting the reach that EGS games have. I've never watched a streamer, and the only one I've even considered watching is one of my uni friends. I don't have the time to waste watching someone else play a game, unless its a friend and we're in the same room, and even that is just a by-product of socialising. And there's going to be a not insignificant number of people like me that feel the same way - many people with full-time jobs, a partner, and/or kids are going to miss games with this manner of "discovery".

If they stay true to this, I can see the long-tail on EGS games being pretty poor, and it becoming the place to get a game first, with Steam (and even Origin) being the place where games go after they've had that initial burst of popularity. So, timed exclusives (whether contracted or not) are here to stay, I think.

I'm the same (though I do follow Giant Bomb), but I think EGS has a completely different userbase. This surprised be a lot but apparently (according to Galyonkin) only half of Fortnite players have Steam installed. And of those that do have it installed, 60% don't actively use it.

This audience is very different and I wouldn't be surprised if their purchasing habits, methods of discovery, and so forth are very different than yours and mine. Perhaps for them streaming is the primarily way of finding out about new games.

What I do find a little worrying is streamers getting a cut of sales. So this basically is asking them to always project having fun, however forced or untrue, as it is beneficial to them. Questionable. For the end user mainly.

Alternatively, perhaps you give a key to a streamer and they shit on your game. Variety streamers are not always great at games, they may misunderstand something, get frustrated, etc. and signal that this game is not worth playing. Suddenly, that's a lot of lost sales potentially. This is of course operating on the assumption that this audience's buying habits is influenced significantly by streamers. But, this is at least somewhat safe to assume given that EGS is focused so heavily on this. It can go either way.

The big problem and difference from (but to some degree also a similarity to) Steam is that the developer is no longer in control of "the message" once that key is in the hands of a streamer. Ironically, it's the same reason why many developers take issue with Steam reviews, and probably why Epic chose to avoid integrated reviews. The sword can cut either way. Once the store goes open, I can foresee this becoming an issue.

I'm not yet clear if you can choose what streamers to send your game to. Will they even play your game? Once there are hundreds of games competing for streamers' attention, it's less and less likely they'll even play it. Plus, is your game the type that will get views? I don't think that What Remains of Edith Finch is particularly compelling streaming material. Or something like Abzu, Into the Breach, Journey, and other more contemplative experiences. Or short narrative games for that matter. They just watched a complete playthrough. Why buy it?

I think there are a lot of games that will not get exposure on EGS without proper discovery tools. This will be a huge hurdle unless you've got a streaming friendly game.

Pixieking · Jan 12, 2019

daxy said:
I'm the same, but I think EGS has a completely different userbase. This surprised be a lot but apparently (according to Galyonkin) only half of Fortnite players have Steam installed. And of those that do have it installed, 60% don't actively use it.

This market is very different and I wouldn't be surprised if their purchasing habits, methods of discovery, and do forth are very different than yours and mine. Perhaps for them streaming is the primarily way of finding out about new games.

Yeah, no doubt there's some different buying and discovery habits there, you're right. But I would not be surprised if Epic relying on Fortnite players and their buying/discovery habits alone gives some devs pause for thought. Like, would someone streaming Journey make a Fortnite player buy it? Or Edith Finch? Why would you not have a simple "Discovery Queue" knock-off? There's not even a "Other people who bought this also bought:" It's a little worrying from both a consumer and dev perspective, I think.

.exe · Jan 12, 2019

Pixieking said:
Yeah, no doubt there's some different buying and discovery habits there, you're right. But I would not be surprised if Epic relying on Fortnite players and their buying/discovery habits alone gives some devs pause for thought. Like, would someone streaming Journey make a Fortnite player buy it? Or Edith Finch? Why would you not have a simple "Discovery Queue" knock-off? There's not even a "Other people who bought this also bought:" It's a little worrying from both a consumer and dev perspective, I think.

Hah, I just finished adding some more thoughts to my post I came to the same conclusion as you. It will be very difficult to exist on EGS for certain types of games unless a Steam like discovery algorithm is implemented.

I think that by the end of this year Epic will rethink their approach. I would hope so anyway.

Marukoban · Jan 12, 2019

MonthOLDpickle said:
As some one who lives in a country with regional pricing, cc do get fees.

Since steam is regional here, there are no fees. I got them before because it was considered an international purchase.

Also just to add, since EGS hasn't implemented local currency, when you pay USD from other countries, the credit card will charge you some spread for conversion.
In my country it's extra 3 to 3.5%.

Armaros · Jan 12, 2019

daxy said:
EGS will give developers as much info on players as is legally possible. He mentioned something about being able to see what other games consumers are playing. I'm not sure this would be allowed by default under GDPR however.

This data will not be publicly available. There will be an API that can be scraped to facilitate a potential "Epic Spy" but they will not offer that service themselves.

The true irony, going out of their way to remove any and all possible information for consumers about the games on the store.

While at the same time basically 'selling' user data to developers.

And considering their current disregard for the rules, I'm not so Sure they won't delve into facebook style data retrieval.

BasilZero · Jan 12, 2019

daxy said:
No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

Thats kinda of a deal breaker as I usually buy games in bulk lol.

I wonder how much % of sales discounts will occur.

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

Armaros said:
The true irony, going out of their way to remove any and all possible information for consumers about the games on the store.

While at the same time basically 'selling' user data to developers.

And considering their current disregard for the rules, I'm not so Sure they won't delve into facebook style data retrieval.

Keep In mind that this is gamedev podcast, not consumer oriented, so they were mostly discussing about features for devs. FYI most of digital marketplaces provide telemetry and data for apps/games creators, so they can better understand which apps are most popular at the moment, or whether there is niche for a product.

Also, concerning the discovery of new games, it's not keys to streamers, it's keys to "Influencers". So Youtubers, bloggers, podcasters and so one are included. Media is also included in mailing lists but without monetary benefit.

I guess it is worth mentioning, that user reviews are also coming soon, they are working on a system, that prevents review bombing, so it would be fair for both players and devs.

And I guess most importantly they will allow to sell EGS keys on other storefronts, but Galyonkin said that he thinks it will be kinda pointless, because the business of reselling Steam keys is based on the fact, that other stores take 20% cut, instead of Steam's 30%. So it would be hard to sell keys on other sites cheaper because EGS cut is already only 12%

xerzewatt · Jan 13, 2019

Marukoban said:
Also just to add, since EGS hasn't implemented local currency, when you pay USD from other countries, the credit card will charge you some spread for conversion.
In my country it's extra 3 to 3.5%.

I wonder if we can use a US credit card from other countries to avoid the conversion charges. Also, do they have region locking? I am currently in Turkey where the prices are pretty good but I'll move back to the US soon.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

trashtabby said:
Aren't you the one who keeps posting that one image of different stores selling Steam games with a lot of stores having different deals to show how Steam isn't anti-competitive?

Yes. I still dont see your point though. It's anti-competitive to ask for sale parity ? Which isn't even enforced as a mandate ? And at any time ?

NoTime said:
This is anti-competitive practices which is bad, so forgive me for not believing in "Good guy Steam". I don't hate sales, but now I better understand why devs are not that happy with Steam policies.

Regarding Ashen The Division 2 prices you should ask devs and not store, epic is not enforcing those kinds of policies. I'd prefer to wait and see what happens moving forward. For example, EGS just launched 2 weeks 2 hours refund policy (similar to Steam), so they are clearly adding features.

Ah yes, EGS isn't enforcing to not sell elsewhere LOL. Nice one.
If you're trying to argue that Steam si anti-competitive for asking (not even enforcing) that if you discount your game somewhere to eventually, someday, to offer the same discount, tough luck with that because no customer is going to whine to have sales.

We literally reached the point where people claims selling in only one place, enforced by moneyhat is fair game but asking for sales is anti-competitive.

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
Yes. I still dont see your point though. It's anti-competitive to ask for sale parity ? Which isn't even enforced as a mandate ? And at any time ?

Ah yes, EGS isn't enforcing to not sell elsewhere LOL. Nice one.
If you're trying to argue that Steam si anti-competitive for asking (not even enforcing) that if you discount your game somewhere to eventually, someday, to offer the same discount, tough luck with that because no customer is going to whine to have sales.

We literally reached the point where people claims selling in only one place, enforced by moneyhat is fair game but asking for sales is anti-competitive.

Speaking of "moneyhatting", he actually explained how they incentivized games to join EGS exclusively. They discussed projected sales figures with devs and offered them sort of insurance policy with paying them in advance for X amount of sold copies. So, if sales figures exceed the projection devs actually won't get any extra money. Actually, in the latest episode of the podcast, he said that for all of the launched games so far, they've at least matched or exceeded those numbers. He obviously can't provide exact numbers, but they exceeded figures, that devs expected from selling on Steam.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
Speaking of "moneyhatting", he actually explained how they incentivized games to join EGS exclusively. They discussed projected sales figures with devs and offered them sort of insurance policy with paying them in advance for X amount of sold copies. So, if sales figures exceed the projection devs actually won't get any extra money. Actually, in the latest episode of the podcast, he said that for all of the launched games so far, they've at least matched or exceeded those numbers. He obviously can't provide exact numbers, but they exceeded figures, that devs expected from selling on Steam.

We know that already. Hence the moneyhatting part.
As for expectations, it's fine. These 2 games would've likely smashed these expectations on Steam.

Syril · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
I'm the same (though I do follow Giant Bomb), but I think EGS has a completely different userbase. This surprised be a lot but apparently (according to Galyonkin) only half of Fortnite players have Steam installed. And of those that do have it installed, 60% don't actively use it.

How do they get that data?

MonthOLDpickle · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
devs expected from selling on Steam

Well yea would never know would you since we don't know numbers (probably never will) and it being only in one spot. Ashen would have smashed on anything, probably even more so on the switch if it was on it. It did have a following already, even had a steam store page til near the day ti launched on EGS (pulling the store on steam).

But you know whatifs and whatnots don't prove anything.

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

MonthOLDpickle said:
Well yea would never know would you since we don't know numbers (probably never will) and it being only in one spot. Ashen would have smashed on anything, probably even more so on the switch if it was on it. It did have a following already, even had a steam store page til near the day ti launched on EGS (pulling the store on steam).

But you know whatifs and whatnots don't prove anything.

We'll know if devs will release them. But it did same as their own Steam sales projections. Why are you doubting it saled good on EGS

MonthOLDpickle · Jan 13, 2019

Who says doubting? That is what you perceive it as =p

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
We'll know if devs will release them. But it did same as their own Steam sales projections. Why are you doubting it saled good on EGS

Who said it was their Steam sales projection ?
You're taking soooo many shortcuts here, it's crazy.
Projections can be safe. It can also be related to a timeframe.
Ask Hollow Knight devs if the success they got was into their projection.
Heck, ask Cuphead devs if the success they got was into their projection.

You're basically taking Sergey's words for devs words and taking so many shortcuts to bring your conclusion.

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
Who said it was their Steam sales projection ?
You're taking soooo many shortcuts here, it's crazy.
Projections can be safe. It can also be related to a timeframe.
Ask Hollow Knight devs if the success they got was into their projection.
Heck, ask Cuphead devs if the success they got was into their projection.

You're basically taking Sergey's words for devs words and taking so many shortcuts to bring your conclusion.

You are welcome to listen to podcast yourself, to know why its steam projections.

Their first figures are meeting the expectation and their conversion of fortnight gamers into playing other games is actually higher than they anticipated. They already have over a thousand devs waiting to get onto the store. So I guess the store is doomed, no one will use just like nitro games.

I don't even use EGS, heck of a don't even have Epic account, but the flack they are getting for virtually anything is hilarious.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
You are welcome to listen to podcast yourself, to know why its steam projections.

Their first figures are meeting the expectation and their conversion of fortnight gamers into playing other games is actually higher than they anticipated. They already have over a thousand devs waiting to get onto the store. So I guess the store is doomed, no one will use just like nitro games.

I don't even use EGS, heck of a don't even have Epic account, but the flack they are getting for virtually anything is hilarious.

Without stating said figures.
As I said, it's Sergey's word. In other words, this is Epic's own PR doing PR.
Same for the conversion thing:
Were they people playing ONLY Fortnite ?
What were they playing ? The free games they gave away ?

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
Without stating said figures.
As I said, it's Sergey's word. In other words, this is Epic's own PR doing PR.
Same for the conversion thing:
Were they people playing ONLY Fortnite ?
What were they playing ? The free games they gave away ?

Do you realize that they can't say exact figures, store is not allowed to disclose such information. Devs sometimes speak about sales if they choose to.

Dude, you are trying too hard to push your narrative. He in detail covered stats that he is allowed to share. Player base, market penetration and so on. He even covered the strategy for following few years. But I'm of course more willing to believe a random guy on the forum.

Gankzymcfly · Jan 13, 2019

Kyougar said:
1. most of the exclusive deal games came from different developers but the same publisher (Annapurna)
2. they are all successful indies with million or hundred thousand sales with their previous games
3a.) If they rely on moneyhatting as a strategy for their whole future development as a studio, I don't know why they should be given charity and the other thousand indies are doing it the hard way.
3b.) If they rely on moneyhatting as a strategy for their whole future development as a studio, they should scale back the project to a sustainable level
3c.) If they rely on moneyhatting as a strategy for their whole future development as a studio, they don't seem to have trust in their ability as a dev or in the viability of their product to compete against the free market
4. Epic has all the leverage and cards in their hands because they heavily curate their store. They only "let" 1 game a day on their store. less than Microsoft and Sony, seriously fewer than Nintendo and not even talking about Valve.

Doesn't seem like you read my post at all because...

1.) Irrelavent imo...
2.) I acknowledged this in my post when I said these games were getting made regardless of any deal with epic.
3a.)They don't rely on moneyhatting (refer back to point 2.). Again, these games would get made regardless of any deal/investment from epic. Any investment from epic only provides additional stability which potentially allows devs/publishers to take greater risks with their games.

Additionally I don't know what "charity" has to do with anything...I don't buy an indie game out of "charity"... I buy it because it either interests me or I've heard good things...in other words...i buy it because I want to play it. Similar to pretty much any other game, AAA or otherwise. If your in the practise of buying games you have zero intentions of ever playing simply to support an indie dev you may be familiar with, than that would be the only scenario I could understand, but even in that circumstance you would be part of a niche audience.

3b.) Again they don't rely on moneyhatting, you acknowledge this yourself in your own part 2. And it's explained again in my part 2 and part 3a. If anything the additional stability provided by investment from epic potentially allows devs. to scale up rather than scale down (ie. Taking larger risks)
3c.) They are not relying on moneyhatting... again....for the third time I think? Or is it the fourth?...they don't rely on any investment provided by epic...it only provides additional stabilty...these games were getting made regardless of any deal made with Epic.
4.) I mean...one could argue this is leverage but I don't think you can really make that case until you have a comparative analysis of the sales data of a game that releases on multiple platforms, including the epic store, at the same time. Ashen might be a good candidate for an analysis like this, but the data could be skewed as it's a console platform vs a pc platform. Ultimately the data would have to show that releasing on the epic store positively impacts sales vs releasing on multiple platforms. Moral of the story here is you can't really say that the prospect of launching on the epic store is leverage in itself because if that were the case devs/publishers would be paying Epic to launch on their store and not the reverse. The reason epic is forced to "moneyhat" is because it is likely far more beneficial for a game dev./publisher to release on multiple platforms vs releasing on a single platform, regardless of how currated that single platform is. The only reason it would not be more beneficial is because of supplimented investment that countered lost sales from other platforms.

As a result the dev/publisher has all the leverage because the options of still making the game, releasing on other platforms and not taking money from epic are still theirs to make...Epic has to counter that with investment that supplements the potential profits that could have been made by releasing on multiple platforms. In addition to that they have very little leverage because regardless of any money they offer/don't offer, the game is getting made regardless...the only question is what platform will it release on. Just don't see Epic having any other leverage outside what I mentioned earlier, what size cheque they want to write. Additionally with all the hate the Epic store is recieving I can't imagine it being the optimal platform to launch a game regardless of curration. The only thing that is countering that is investment....

So saying "epic only lets one game in their store a day!!!" Doesn't really mean anything if that one game is selling zero copies.

MonthOLDpickle · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
Dude, you are trying too hard to push your narrative. He in detail covered stats that he is allowed to share. Player base, market penetration and so on. He even covered the strategy for following few years. But I'm of course more willing to believe a random guy on the forum.

I am nuetrel but to be fair, without backing data you can't trust anyone. It is okay to believe though but nobody can sit here and honestly say anything about something without the sample sizes, what type to tests was done.

(Thanks for reminding me I have to work on my stupid dissertation).

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
Do you realize that they can't say exact figures, store is not allowed to disclose such information. Devs sometimes speak about sales if they choose to.

Dude, you are trying too hard to push your narrative. He in detail covered stats that he is allowed to share. Player base, market penetration and so on. He even covered the strategy for following few years. But I'm of course more willing to believe a random guy on the forum.

I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm telling you these are just words without concrete facts.
Heck the question I asked you about their expectation of Fortnite players getting in doesn't even require numbers. I just asked if they included the free games. :)

NoTime · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm telling you these are just words without concrete facts.
Heck the question I asked you about their expectation of Fortnite players getting in doesn't even require numbers. I just asked if they included the free games. :)

On the free games they are testing whether fortnight players willing to play anything other than fortnight, which appears to be positive, he said that all games showed good numbers, but subnautica numbers where unexpectedly high.

On the payed games, when they recorded he had data on Ashen, Hello neighbor and Hades. They all were positive, but he said it's to early to call a success, because these are the smaller titles, we need to wait for big AAA release (e.g. Division 2, but it wasn't announced at the time). Also they need more genres, for example they don't have any shooters on store, hence they can't give any stats on that. It may be possible that fortnight can clash with other games playerbase.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
On the free games they are testing whether fortnight players willing to play anything other than fortnight, which appears to be positive, he said that all games showed good numbers, but subnautica numbers where unexpectedly high.

On the payed games, when they recorded he had data on Ashen, Hello neighbor and Hades. They all were positive, but he said it's to early to call a success, because these are the smaller titles, we need to wait for big AAA release (e.g. Division 2, but it wasn't announced at the time). Also they need more genres, for example they don't have any shooters on store, hence they can't give any stats on that. It may be possible that fortnight can clash with other games playerbase.

Just as I thought then. Free games included. As for too early to call a success, it's just in line with what I said.
It all comes down to your expectations. Saying "A lot more people downloaded this free game than we expected" doesnt say a lot about their expectations neither about the concrete number.
I should listen to this podcast later today when I can.

Madjoki · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
They already have over a thousand devs waiting to get onto the store. So I guess the store is doomed, no one will use just like nitro games.

This pretty much means they're doomed though but in different way than you may think.
They can't possible feature all 1000 games in ~20 slots of front page, since they don't, so either they accept games and by not featuring they will be doomed to fail, or deny just about everyone and those not chosen don't even get change. And this is after they positioned themselves as a savior of indie games.

xerzewatt said:
I wonder if we can use a US credit card from other countries to avoid the conversion charges. Also, do they have region locking? I am currently in Turkey where the prices are pretty good but I'll move back to the US soon.

The Division 2 seems to be only one locked as it says

This purchase is region-locked to account country

So even if you move within same region (eg. EU), you can't play game anymore.
Compared to Steam, where we have no region locks, though some CD keys are region locked for activation. And Steam's region lock expires after 90 days so that's not big problem.

Syril said:
How do they get that data?

I'd assume Epic Launcher collects that data. It even ask you to link Steam Account if you have it installed (maybe even if you don't?), so they could monitor that too, if you have public account.

daxy said:
EGS will not focus on discovery like Valve. Instead, they will have a curated front page like the App Store. The primary way of "discovering" games will be developers giving out keys to streamers through EGS. Streamers of course are inventivized to "sell" games because they can get a cut of the sale.

So if you can't get streamers to play your games, you're doomed. And even if you get to, you have to pay upfront fees or at least pay more per copy. I think Epic said they'll cover default, but rest comes from your pocket. Also only Epic approved streamers have creator tag, so you're limited to those.

daxy said:
You will also eventually be able to follow games and get notifications about big updates and such, which may help get visibility to your game.

But you first need visibility to get those follow your game. So I guess this is mostly for servce/early access games.

daxy said:
EGS will give developers as much info on players as is legally possible. He mentioned something about being able to see what other games consumers are playing. I'm not sure this would be allowed by default under GDPR however.

This data will not be publicly available. There will be an API that can be scraped to facilitate a potential "Epic Spy" but they will not offer that service themselves.

I guess this means aggregated stats of Who Play game X plays also Y. But why it's limited to developers?
Giving aggregated statistics is fine under GDPR. Just like Steam can show games by player numbers.

daxy said:
The launch build of games are tested for playability.

This sounds good, but...

Valve only tests once and you're free to update even before launch and this makes mistakes possible.

So Epic solves this by having developers submit final and then freeze from updating.
But it also means it will take longer to patch games, so it actually hurts developers who don't mess up.

If you (have to) submit certification month earlier, that's extra month "wasted" that could be used to improve game.

Is there cooldown or certification to submit patch? Because if developer can patch immediately, you'll obviously have to face same problems as Steam.
Which would mean whole process was waste of time.

daxy said:
No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

Yeah, that's true. But Steam doesn't have sales for fun, it's marketing. Gamers have actual reason to checkout the store.
They can wishlist upcoming games, feature new games. Valve does this via discovery queues during sale (with incentives)

Regular sales are good, but do those get people to visit store? I certainly don't check every regular sale Steam has. Let alone smaller sites, other store platforms (origin,bnet,uplay).

NoTime said:
On the free games they are testing whether fortnight players willing to play anything other than fortnight, which appears to be positive, he said that all games showed good numbers, but subnautica numbers where unexpectedly high.

But, Willingness to play != willingness to pay (especially upfront). Subnautica was also first game, so it could be because of that.
Did he clarify what good number refers to what? Play minutes or number of players? Both?

Ikuu · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
EGS will not focus on discovery like Valve. Instead, they will have a curated front page like the App Store. The primary way of "discovering" games will be developers giving out keys to streamers through EGS. Streamers of course are inventivized to "sell" games because they can get a cut of the sale.

Going to be good if you're lucky enough to get on the front page, otherwise you got to hope Twitch likes your game 😂

NoTime said:
On the free games they are testing whether fortnight players willing to play anything other than fortnight, which appears to be positive, he said that all games showed good numbers, but subnautica numbers where unexpectedly high.

They couldn't even get Fortnite players to play their own games.

Ge0force · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
I wonder if exclusives are the main reason for all the salt surrounding EGS launch.

For me it is. More storefronts are always welcome, the more choice the better. But f*ck paying 3rd party devs and publishers to keep their games away from competing storefronts. That's both anti-competitive and anti-consumer, and I won't support any company or games involved in this practice.

Sadly, it seems Epic is going all in for this, so I expect many, many more moneyhats for upcoming popular pc games, mostly right before release. And that really pisses me off. The more exclusivity deals they announce, the more I hope their store fails.

NoTime said:
Actually, in the latest episode of the podcast, he said that for all of the launched games so far, they've at least matched or exceeded those numbers. He obviously can't provide exact numbers, but they exceeded figures, that devs expected from selling on Steam.

That makes me sad. Seems many pc gamers are fine with these exclusivity deals anyway... :(

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
I think they even publicly said that they stopped development of the new UT.

I wonder if exclusives are the main reason for all the salt surrounding EGS launch.

It is. Because it's a bad practice in the market.

Deleted member 3897 · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
Going through the aforementioned podcast with Galyonkin and a bunch of really interesting tidbits came up already.

EGS will not focus on discovery like Valve. Instead, they will have a curated front page like the App Store. The primary way of "discovering" games will be developers giving out keys to streamers through EGS. Streamers of course are inventivized to "sell" games because they can get a cut of the sale.

You will also eventually be able to follow games and get notifications about big updates and such, which may help get visibility to your game.

Cloud saves coming around February.

By the end of 2019, EGS will open to self-publishing.

EGS will give developers as much info on players as is legally possible. He mentioned something about being able to see what other games consumers are playing. I'm not sure this would be allowed by default under GDPR however.

This data will not be publicly available. There will be an API that can be scraped to facilitate a potential "Epic Spy" but they will not offer that service themselves.

The launch build of games are tested for playability.

A little hazy on this part, but, from what I understood, EGS is currently also doing off-site marketing for the games that are on their store. I don't recall if that's just for exclusives. Don't believe they said anything about that once the store goes open for self publishing.

No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

What.

Wtf.

What the hell.

What.

Deleted member 426 · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

Most of this sounds good, but the lack of seasonal sales is going to be a massive issue. I understand they're trying to do something like the Nintendo model which has controlled pricing and a lower price elasticity, but there's nothing they are doing that will convince customers to buy into their eco system, so literally any time any of its competitors have a seasonal sale, people will have no reason to stick with Epic.

eonden · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
Going through the aforementioned podcast with Galyonkin and a bunch of really interesting tidbits came up already.

EGS will not focus on discovery like Valve. Instead, they will have a curated front page like the App Store. The primary way of "discovering" games will be developers giving out keys to streamers through EGS. Streamers of course are inventivized to "sell" games because they can get a cut of the sale.

You will also eventually be able to follow games and get notifications about big updates and such, which may help get visibility to your game.

Cloud saves coming around February.

By the end of 2019, EGS will open to self-publishing.

EGS will give developers as much info on players as is legally possible. He mentioned something about being able to see what other games consumers are playing. I'm not sure this would be allowed by default under GDPR however.

This data will not be publicly available. There will be an API that can be scraped to facilitate a potential "Epic Spy" but they will not offer that service themselves.

The launch build of games are tested for playability.

A little hazy on this part, but, from what I understood, EGS is currently also doing off-site marketing for the games that are on their store. I don't recall if that's just for exclusives. Don't believe they said anything about that once the store goes open for self publishing.

No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

-App store "curation" is shit. It also hinges on basically knowing somebody in the process that lets you into some of the promoted lists to make money, otherwise you are fucked. About streamers, the cut is going to come from the developers, so it can be kinda eeffy (as well as moving the issue into getting streamers to play your game WHICH THEY ARE NOT DOING NOW ALREADY).

-You can do that in Steam. As well as I dont like how they will be sending my contact information to the developer.

-Good.

-Good, will be interesting to see how they curate then. Going to be messy.

-No thanks.

-Yeah, because a "epic spy" API made by epic would be illegal (disclosing of secret trade information).

-Valve does it. Issue is patches later on.

-They do, I saw some youtube ads for some of their games. Probably part of the exclusivity agreement.

-Good luck with that.

.exe · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
Keep In mind that this is gamedev podcast, not consumer oriented, so they were mostly discussing about features for devs. FYI most of digital marketplaces provide telemetry and data for apps/games creators, so they can better understand which apps are most popular at the moment, or whether there is niche for a product.

Also, concerning the discovery of new games, it's not keys to streamers, it's keys to "Influencers". So Youtubers, bloggers, podcasters and so one are included. Media is also included in mailing lists but without monetary benefit.

I guess it is worth mentioning, that user reviews are also coming soon, they are working on a system, that prevents review bombing, so it would be fair for both players and devs.

And I guess most importantly they will allow to sell EGS keys on other storefronts, but Galyonkin said that he thinks it will be kinda pointless, because the business of reselling Steam keys is based on the fact, that other stores take 20% cut, instead of Steam's 30%. So it would be hard to sell keys on other sites cheaper because EGS cut is already only 12%

Ah, this might've been lost in translation for me or I wasn't paying close enough attention -- it was a bit late when I started. I've never listened to a gaming podcast in Russian, so it took me a while to even get acquainted with the terminology. Actually had to listen to several segments another time to fully understand (and Galyonkin talks really fast for me!). I got the impression that this would be somehow integrated into the client, so I assumed it'd be game streamers since they would also have it installed. So basically it's like a referral link, I suppose.

I'll give the other podcasts that came out since a listen too. Interesting to get an inside perspective. I was really surprised to hear that a large share of Hello Neighbor's audience never used Steam before, for example. I thought it was a ubiquitous concept by now, but apparently not.

As for the point made by someone here that developers are paying for this cut themselves -- yes, to some extent. The first 24 months, the fee will be covered by Epic. After that, it's on the devs, but they can alter the %age cut.

Hektor · Jan 13, 2019

NoTime said:
And I guess most importantly they will allow to sell EGS keys on other storefronts, but Galyonkin said that he thinks it will be kinda pointless, because the business of reselling Steam keys is based on the fact, that other stores take 20% cut, instead of Steam's 30%. So it would be hard to sell keys on other sites cheaper because EGS cut is already only 12%

Meaning that Galyonkin says everything GhostTrick said about a lower cut killing third-party stores and the discounts they provide is true.

At least this forum can finally settle this conversation, i guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

Hektor said:
Meaning that Galyonkin says everything GhostTrick said about a lower cut killing third-party stores and the discounts they provide is true.

At least this forum can finally settle this conversation, i guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, it was just me being paranoid, a liar and a Steam apologist fanboy driven by feelings for a company and not my wallet nor my own interests. :"")
But yeah, anyone paying attention to the market could've come to the same conclusion. It just comes straight from the horse's mouth this time.

Basically, before Epic, we had a far more sane competition (relying in Steam's backend, the best available). After Epic, we'll have less competition (relying on any backend, which may vary from good to terrible).

Hurray competition !

Deleted member 27771 · Jan 13, 2019

Hektor said:
Meaning that Galyonkin says everything GhostTrick said about a lower cut killing third-party stores and the discounts they provide is true.

At least this forum can finally settle this conversation, i guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Has anyone ever argued that that wouldn't be the case? Seems fairly self evident.

Madjoki · Jan 13, 2019

Hektor said:
Meaning that Galyonkin says everything GhostTrick said about a lower cut killing third-party stores and the discounts they provide is true.

At least this forum can finally settle this conversation, i guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, you don't have to be rocket scientist to deduce that...

Hektor · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Has anyone ever argued that that wouldn't be the case? Seems fairly self evident.

I remember a lot of people being fairly oblivious / Ignorant towards the fact and thinking that more % for the devs will result in lower prices than right now.

"

"

Madjoki said:
Well, you don't have to be rocket scientist to deduce that...

True, just saying it's nice to have a confirmation straight from the people behind the store.

Stone Ocean · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
EGS will not focus on discovery like Valve. Instead, they will have a curated front page like the App Store. The primary way of "discovering" games will be developers giving out keys to streamers through EGS. Streamers of course are inventivized to "sell" games because they can get a cut of the sale.

So essentially Epic is gonna curate but developers are just expected to do their own market anyways. Great system you got there.

daxy said:
No massive seasonal sale events like on Steam. This is said to kill sales for games that don't do a discount in that period as well as for new games. Instead, games on sale will be featured alongside the regular stuff.

Yeah good luck with that.

Lower_Frequency said:
Has anyone ever argued that that wouldn't be the case? Seems fairly self evident.

"B-but trickle down economics! Devs getting more money means they'll make their games cheaper!" - a resonable amount of people in Epic threads.

Deleted member 27771 · Jan 13, 2019

Hektor said:
I remember a lot of people being fairly oblivious / Ignorant towards the fact and thinking that more % for the devs will result in lower prices than right now.

"

"

Umm okay. Don't know where that quote is from but I guess you found something.

One thing I've always been curious about when people talk about how great steam keys are for the devs (they get 100%!!!) is why aren't we seeing literally every dev pushing selling steam keys themselves? Seems odd since it's such a great deal.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Has anyone ever argued that that wouldn't be the case? Seems fairly self evident.

Madjoki said:
Well, you don't have to be rocket scientist to deduce that...

Well, I still got a lot of shit for saying that though.

Deleted member 27771 · Jan 13, 2019

Stone Ocean said:
"B-but trickle down economics! Devs getting more money means they'll make their games cheaper!" - a resonable amount of people in Epic threads.

Lol. Okay. Reasonable is a pretty vague bar but I'm gonna need receipts.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Umm okay. Don't know where that quote is from but I guess you found something.

One thing I've always been curious about when people talk about how great steam keys are for the devs (they get 100%!!!) is why aren't we seeing literally every dev pushing selling steam keys themselves? Seems odd since it's such a great deal.

I think because devs may not even know about it. A lot of devs could promote their site and sell via the Humble Widget and get like 90% of the revenue so that they dont bother with the payments stuff.

But yeah, there's also the fact that it's more convenient for them.

.exe · Jan 13, 2019

Stone Ocean said:
So essentially Epic is gonna curate but developers are just expected to do their own market anyways. Great system you got there.

Yes and no. Unlike Steam, EGS markets individual games off site, but I don't know exactly what the terms are and to whom that is extended.

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
Yes and no. Unlike Steam, EGS markets individual games off site, but I don't know exactly what the terms are and to whom that is extended.

To the successful ones obviously.

Stone Ocean · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
One thing I've always been curious about when people talk about how great steam keys are for the devs (they get 100%!!!) is why aren't we seeing literally every dev pushing selling steam keys themselves? Seems odd since it's such a great deal.

Getting people who are used to buying things elsewhere to go directly to you isn't easy. When was the last time you went a publisher's website to buy a game instead of just buying it off your preferred storefront?

daxy said:
Yes and no. Unlike Steam, EGS markets individual games off site, but I don't know exactly what the terms are and to whom that is extended.

Yeah but I would assume they're not gonna market everyone and it'll basically just be a lottery.

eonden · Jan 13, 2019

daxy said:
Yes and no. Unlike Steam, EGS markets individual games off site, but I don't know exactly what the terms are and to whom that is extended.

They probably are advertising exclusive games right now to promote the store. It is hard to promote a store otherwise.

Hektor · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Umm okay. Don't know where that quote is from but I guess you found something.

One thing I've always been curious about when people talk about how great steam keys are for the devs (they get 100%!!!) is why aren't we seeing literally every dev pushing selling steam keys themselves? Seems odd since it's such a great deal.

I think the primary reason for that is that developers don't wanna go through the effort of setting up a storefront on their backend.
That's why Humble Bundle came up with the Humble Widget https://www.humblebundle.com/developer/widget

The Humble Widget is seperate from the Humble Store and essentially automates the distribution and sales of steamkeys for devs in return of a mere 5% cut for Humble.

I guess there is also an argument to be had that it's hard for devs to actually bring awareness to their own homepage compared to a steam- or otherstorepage.

Deleted member 27771 · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
I think because devs may not even know about it. A lot of devs could promote their site and sell via the Humble Widget and get like 90% of the revenue so that they dont bother with the payments stuff.

But yeah, there's also the fact that it's more convenient for them.

But Ubisoft and EA could just print keys and sell them and take 100%. They have huge reach. Why aren't they doing it? Why isn't really anyone doing it but just a few? Really that many devs don't know?

GhostTrick · Jan 13, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
But Ubisoft and EA could just print keys and sell them and take 100%. They have huge reach. Why aren't they doing it? Why isn't really anyone doing it but just a few? Really that many devs don't know?

Yes, they could. But there's more to it than revenue for these 2 big publishers. Data, userbase. Basically having their own walled garden.

Some.publishers are actually doing it. Square Enix for exemple. Bandai Namco too. But the thing is, they dont really push it.

Deleted member 27771 · Jan 13, 2019

GhostTrick said:
Yes, they could. But there's more to it than revenue for these 2 big publishers. Data, userbase. Basically having their own walled garden.

Some.publishers are actually doing it. Square Enix for exemple. Bandai Namco too. But the thing is, they dont really push it.

Genuinely curious. Can you link me to Square and Namco sites selling steam keys?

Epic Games Store Discussion

Self-requested ban

Self-requested ban.

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Community Resettler

Community Resettler

Community Resettler