Valve is offering them a bigger audience of 100 million, who doesn't consist mostly of Fortnite f2p players.
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Epic launches digital games store with 88% revenue going to developers
- Thread starter Bundy
- Start date
Valve is offering them a bigger audience of 100 million, who doesn't consist mostly of Fortnite f2p players.
If you're a developer willing to ditch Steam's massive installed base for Epic's moneyhat, then you're not concerned with selling your game to the widest possible audience. You're a sellout chasing a quick buck.
At first I was open to the idea of more competition, but fuck companies like Epic that can only compete by blocking content from others. That's not competing to the benefit of the consumer.
At first I was open to the idea of more competition, but fuck companies like Epic that can only compete by blocking content from others. That's not competing to the benefit of the consumer.
This isn't what happened on the Switch though; "Switch owners have nothing to play so they just buy whatever's available" was and still is entirely a myth.
It'll improve just like Steam.
How is higher percentage for the developer lead to higher prices? It should be the opposite.
Developers could have refused and went with Steam but why would they refuse a deal to get higher for their games?
I don't care about Epic I want to make that very clear. I care about competition leading to better services just like every other industry.
Sorry if that's not the answer to your post.
It'll improve isn't an excuse. For now, it's lackluster. Pretty lackluster. Why as I consumer do I have to pay in the hope they get better ?
How is higher percentage for the dev lead to higher prices ?
Pretty simple and quoting myself from another thread:
Alright, I'll do it one more time:
When a game releases on Steam, you agree it's never releasing ONLY on Steam, right ? in 99% of the time, they also release on 3rd party stores such as Amazon, GMG, Voidu, Humble, Wingamestore, Itch.io right ?
Why ? Because Valve allows for free unlimited key generation. Devs can sell these keys for 100% of revenue. Valve takes no cut there. Devs can either sell them on their site, at full revenue cut OR on a 3rd party store which usually applies a 25-30% cut, like Steam.
How do these stores compete with Steam's monopoly ? They discount these titles on their OWN cut. Which means they can sell these games for 10 to 25% off. Even 30% off sometimes. Day one. While developpers retains their full revenue from their 70% cut.
That + regional pricing of course.
Also, the problem isn't that their releasing on Epic Store. It's that they're releasing only there because of a moneyhat. Because Epic paid them to do so.
"Devs can sell these keys for 100% of revenue "
This is a disingenuous argument because valve can and will stop allowing devs to have keys if they are impacting thier profit margins. There is no right to have as many keys as you like. Every developer would sell their own keys if they could, because why not?
This is a disingenuous argument because valve can and will stop allowing devs to have keys if they are impacting thier profit margins. There is no right to have as many keys as you like. Every developer would sell their own keys if they could, because why not?
Holy shit.
No, you're wrong. Yes, devs can have as many keys as they want (within reason, in order to stop the gaming of mini-profits gamed from trading cards). Part of the reason they don't sell keys on their own is because sales on Steam push their titles into the best-sellers, which creates more interest and PR. They do have the right to generate them.
Edit: proof
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys
This is absolutely false, and many developers do sell their own Steam keys. Some even give them away as a bonus with Itch.io copies of their games. Some developers choose not to, because buying on Steam and leaving a review helps with visibility.
The free steam key generation is what allows third market sellers like Humble to exist. Hundreds of thousands of games are sold that way. It's been like this for years. Yes it's probably hurting Valve's bottom line but this is a key part of their featureset and one which has positivity impacted the PC market for years.
And despite some games literally generating hundreds of thousands of keys by themselves - Valve have never removed this feature from a single developer not abusing the system.
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from the horses mouth
"
If we are denying keys for normal size batches it's likely because your Steam sales don't reflect a need for as many keys as you're distributing, and you're probably asking for more keys because you're offering cheaper options off Steam and yet we are bearing the costs. So at some point we start deciding that the value you're bringing to Steam isn't worth the cost to us.
For example, say you've sold a few thousand copies on Steam but have requested / activated 500K keys, then we are going to take a deeper look at your games, your sales, your costs, etc."
from https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/18/16167462/valve-steam-keys-limiting-developers
Basically, they are fine with you selling a proportion of your keys via your own site, but too many and its tough shit son, your done.
The only arbiter of how many is too many is Valve. You can't base a business model off that.
From the same article:
Which is what I meant by
And in their documentation is stated as:
But again, the only arbiter of the rules is Valve, and it directly says in my quote that if steam isn't making enough money off your title you will be denied keys.
Fake games and trading card scams isn't relevant here, we are talking about legitimate developers attempting to get a better cut by using steam keys
Fake games and trading card scams isn't relevant here, we are talking about legitimate developers attempting to get a better cut by using steam keys
Of course it's relevant. Since it's the only reason it happens.
"We're trying to look more closely at extreme examples of products on Steam that don't seem to be providing actual value as playable games — for instance, when a game has sold 100 units, has mostly negative reviews, but requests 500,000 Steam keys," said Valve. "We're not interested in supporting trading card farming or bot networks at the expense of being able to provide value and service for players."'
No. The word "money" is not there. That is an inference you're drawing. What it is actually legitimately designed to do is to prevent quick asset flips designed to make money off of the market for unscrupulous developers. Here: https://kotaku.com/valve-pulls-nearly-200-spam-games-from-steam-1818820783
To be honest, if this were just about money, then Valve would've actually let this run. Valve make a percentage (5%) from every trading card sold on the market. But these games didn't benefit consumers, so they were removed, even with the financial benefit for Valve if they were left on Steam.
Sure that's the excuse. So you are saying if fortnite was on steam for $50 and you could buy a steam key on epics website for $40 then valve would print up 30 million keys? Of course not, and Epic wouldn't try because Valve would have already told them not to bother trying it. Valve retains control over all sales, they know that if its on steam most sales will come through them unless its cheaper elsewhere, at which point they cut off they key supply until they get more sales through steam.
From your own post:
Can be read as "you're offering your game at a 20% discount somewhere else and not paying us your share, earning more". They're not a charity, they're interested in the money. They're not just doing it because they want people to have the best launcher possible.
"you're offering cheaper options off Steam and yet we are bearing the costs "
Direct quote from valve without the legalese bullshit of thier terms page. Sounds like money to me
Literally making shit up. I'm sorry, but you're stating opinion as fact. Steam keys have existed for years. Humble pretty much existed on them in the early years. GMG, GamesPlanet, WinGameStore, even Paradox Store all use Steam key generation for selling Steam keys on their own sites. Valve have no problem with generating them for you, as long as you aren't trying to con users with "games" that are just trading card scams.
Your interpretation, which is not fact.
You want to say "I think this thing"? Fine. I won't argue.
You want to state that Valve don't do this thing, as though it's a fact? Nope, because it's not a fact, it simply your bias showing through. In all but the most extreme cases where users are being conned out of money, Valve don't care about Steam key generation.
Here, go to isthereanydeal.com and search for any Steam game you want. Chances are good there's some good deals there. Civ VI Gathering Storm is currently 20% off at GameBillet. Steam key generated for 2k games. Free.
Tell me, did it impact any dev ? Anyone came out and said "they wont let me do so" ?
Because literally everyone can do so and sell on their sites even in physical copies.
Literally in the article you quoted:
"We're trying to look more closely at extreme examples of products on Steam that don't seem to be providing actual value as playable games — for instance, when a game has sold 100 units, has mostly negative reviews, but requests 500,000 Steam keys," said Valve. "We're not interested in supporting trading card farming or bot networks at the expense of being able to provide value and service for players."'
But that's an excuse. Sure whatever.
Again in the valve statment you are trying so hard to ignore
"If we are denying keys for normal size batches it's likely because your Steam sales don't reflect a need for as many keys as you're distributing, and you're probably asking for more keys because you're offering cheaper options off Steam and yet we are bearing the costs. "
describes the exact scenario we are discussing. Small players get a pass as long a they also get sales via steam.
I personally don't mind another launcher. I just particularly don't like the way Epic is doing it, because it is really anti-consumer and is providing no benefits for the consumer (which competition is supposed to bring about!)
No regional pricing, so everything is in USD and more expensive for others.
Their launcher is lacking many features that are standard IMO (wishlists, forums, reviews)
So far, I can't out out onto another site and buy a key there and use it on their storefront, so I can't go buy Ashen on GMG whereas you can buy steam keys, uplay, origin games elseware at a cheaper price. To me that's real competition, allowing me to shop around and have companies compete for my money.
Ended up buying Hades on Epic's storefront, but I prefer steam until these and other issues are addressed.
No regional pricing, so everything is in USD and more expensive for others.
Their launcher is lacking many features that are standard IMO (wishlists, forums, reviews)
So far, I can't out out onto another site and buy a key there and use it on their storefront, so I can't go buy Ashen on GMG whereas you can buy steam keys, uplay, origin games elseware at a cheaper price. To me that's real competition, allowing me to shop around and have companies compete for my money.
Ended up buying Hades on Epic's storefront, but I prefer steam until these and other issues are addressed.
*shrugs* Again, to prevent abuse of the system. But whatever, I don't think I'm going to convince you, so...
We should really have a thread of common misconceptions and good explanations like these, so we don't get bogged down on the same topics every three pages in these threads about Valve. It's always the same arguments.
No-one cares. It's literally just people working off of urban myths, bias and misconception. At a certain point, you've just got to accept people just want to wallow in their ignorance.
As opposed to uh... Dota 2? You know, that tiny lil' game that has been receiving free content updates since 2011? It's a product, mate. They're not "looking out" for anyone. They are making money. That's all it is. (This obviously goes for Valve, too - just to clarify.)
If I sell a million keys from my website and 10 copies on steam because my website is cheaper and I spent millions advertising it, is that an "abuse of the system"? Steam have every right to deny the printing of keys in that case, but it highlights thier dominant control of the steam keys market, they decide how many is too many, and that's the bad part and why epic couldn't just sell steam keys.
Your argument falls apart when itch.io sells obscure games with Steam keys included, and, conversely, when Humble sells Steam keys for Monster Hunter World (currently top of the best-sellers on Steam in my region). Epic could easily sell Steam keys, they just choose not to.
No, because these titles are selling a decent chunk on steam comparative to their outside sales, so the percentages are fine for Valve.
So you just moved your goal posts? First they couldn't and now its Valves fault?
Exactly. And that's why it's also highly unlikely that you'll manage to sell a million keys on your website while only 100 on the store page. You're talking completely in hypotheticals. What's the point even if you're coming up with these impossible scenarios that are impossible to argue against because you keep changing the rules. It's the discursive equivalent of kids coming up with super powers on the go while playing. "Aha, your eye lasers didn't hurt me because I actually have skin that repels eye lasers -- you didn't know, but there it is!"
No, it's not an abuse of the system. For fuck sake, do you even read what you post. If that happens, they'll check why. If you required a million keys while your game is a small profile game sold only on Steam yes, they might restrict that if that's because you're doing it to exploit cards or bots. Why do you think they can have Steam keys in humble bundles ? Litterally games packed together in a 1 dollar price.
You're looking at those itchi.io games and thinking they sell a "decent chunk on Steam comparative to their outside sales"? You're having a laugh. Like, a) that's unlikely, but more importantly, b) you don't know that. Literally guessing at sales to try and win an argument.
I'm kind of relying on the Valve employee statement saying if you sell a large amount more outside steam than on steam then we may restrict your keys.
In practice, that's never how it has worked.
If you generate many times the number of keys vs the number you sell on Steam, Valve will look into things to check you aren't abusing the system like how people used to for trading cards.
They have never restricted keys for sales figures alone. There are cases where keys significantly outnumber Steam copies, so if this were to be an actual Valve policy, we would have seen it happen by now.
It's also going to take aggressive marketing to curb against how ingrained Steam is to get gamers to switch over. Exclusives makes perfect sense to try and do just that.
Which games have keys outnumber steam copies overall, can we have a look at some numbers?
1. Steam is an excellent platform that offers more and better services than anyone else in the industry
2. Steam isn't a monopoly. It's an open platform in a market of competitors like EA Origin, GOG, and itch.io. Further, Valve does nothing to force or unduly influence anyone to use their platform over another service. An example would be moneyhatting exclusives to deny products from another platform
Hot tip: If you change the wording, it's not a direct quote.
Whilst not actually possible to find specific numbers, using the reviews on Steam pages, it's possible to guess. Reviews specify whether they were bought on Steam, or were activated via key. So
https://store.steampowered.com/app/509930/NightmareZ/
36:1 ratio, and still available with a Steam key on itch.io at https://amaxang-games.itch.io/nightmarez
Yeah. Plus the fact that games that are exclusive to EPIC store,might get 88% instead of 70%,but will have signifant lower market share,due to the unpopularity of the platform. So in a way,Ashen devs might have made more money being in Steam than in Epic Store,despite the higher revenue percentage
Fair enough, but no valve employee is going to look at a game with such low sales are they? That's probably within they devs first batch of steam keys. Do we have any examples from a decent sized game?
This sums up my feelings. I have ZERO interest in buying off Epic.
You're moving the goalposts. Blatantly. You said:
and
I just proved a case of a game selling a large amount outside of Steam comparative to within Steam, thus disproving your point. Now you're asking for a "decent sized game"? What counts as "decent sized"? And what relevancy does that have when you were saying that the percentage (ratio) was what was important for Valve?