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Epic Seven (Mobile/Mobage) |OT| 1.25% better than Dragalia Lost's Rates!
- Thread starter LordGorchnik
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40 for a random sounds ridiculously bad lol. Not only are F2P or low spending people very unlikely to get to it before they quit for another game, but the fact that it's random means you're not likely to get what you want anyway, unless you want just any ML 5 and will revamp your team around whatever you get.
It seems to fit the pattern of SG's design decisions. They take ideas that are meant to make life easier for its players, then for no reason they ruthlessly gut it until it only barely serves its purpose. It's like how the increased drop event had timing windows for no reason. I don't understand why they seem so hellbent on neutering every single nice gesture they make.
I'm having fun with the game, but for me and I suspect a lot of people, they might as well not have announced this change at all. It simply won't apply to most of us.
Oh, speaking of having fun, I was wondering about how CR pushing works. I know the idea is to make your slow and powerful units move before faster opponents, but how reliable is it and how well does it work? I read that Kise's S2 can be used to cleave teams in PvP, but since that takes two turns to do, I was wondering if something like CR push > Kise S3 > Carmin S3 > Kise S2 on next turn is viable.
It seems to fit the pattern of SG's design decisions. They take ideas that are meant to make life easier for its players, then for no reason they ruthlessly gut it until it only barely serves its purpose. It's like how the increased drop event had timing windows for no reason. I don't understand why they seem so hellbent on neutering every single nice gesture they make.
I'm having fun with the game, but for me and I suspect a lot of people, they might as well not have announced this change at all. It simply won't apply to most of us.
Oh, speaking of having fun, I was wondering about how CR pushing works. I know the idea is to make your slow and powerful units move before faster opponents, but how reliable is it and how well does it work? I read that Kise's S2 can be used to cleave teams in PvP, but since that takes two turns to do, I was wondering if something like CR push > Kise S3 > Carmin S3 > Kise S2 on next turn is viable.
Aw. I'm guessing this is why Roozid and Judith are popular CR pushers instead? Since they push you instead of slowing the enemy.
They are releasing content and updating things fairly regularly, I don't feel like it is that slow, in fact it is pretty fast for a Gacha in my experience. Problem is it's just not end-game content (well I guess AT turned out to be lol) and it is finished in like an hour.
They churned out 2 main chapters, 2 side chapters, a couple side stories, a couple new units, Steeple, AT, QoL changes (skill enhance screen, charm stacking, mola refund, etc) and some more in what, a month?
I'd rather they actually focus their efforts on quality not quantity at this point.
Yeah, Roozid and Judith are guaranteed team push and Roozid comes with a +8 speed imprint as well.
CR pushing and cleaving is popular since it takes away a lot of the randomness of a fight. If you can push your units to the top and neuter the other team before they even get to move the battle is over. I for example use Roozid to push Dizzy/Baiken/Luna and Dizzy/Baiken can be used to further CR manipulate giving my whole team a turn before the other acts. I can usually wipe two units and the match is over IF I go first. Sometimes I even bring Helga for another speed imprint if I feel like gambling against another cleave team.
If you wait until Turn 2 to cleave you are giving them the opportunity to put up buffs/barriers/immunity and then artifacts start kicking in to add to randomness, so it'll be a lot less reliable. i.e. you don't want to give a tank team a chance to dig in (or a Dizzy to buff strip with Iela Violin, ugh). But it's a definite viable strategy if you pick your match-ups wisely (maybe other cleave comps) since C.Armin will keep Kise alive long enough. Don't be stuck in the mentality that Cleave has to be some AoE team wipe, I use two strong Single Target DPS units to delete their damage dealers and at that point it's just whittling away their C.Armin and Healer after Turn 1.
They churned out 2 main chapters, 2 side chapters, a couple side stories, a couple new units, Steeple, AT, QoL changes (skill enhance screen, charm stacking, mola refund, etc) and some more in what, a month?
I'd rather they actually focus their efforts on quality not quantity at this point.
Yeah, Roozid and Judith are guaranteed team push and Roozid comes with a +8 speed imprint as well.
CR pushing and cleaving is popular since it takes away a lot of the randomness of a fight. If you can push your units to the top and neuter the other team before they even get to move the battle is over. I for example use Roozid to push Dizzy/Baiken/Luna and Dizzy/Baiken can be used to further CR manipulate giving my whole team a turn before the other acts. I can usually wipe two units and the match is over IF I go first. Sometimes I even bring Helga for another speed imprint if I feel like gambling against another cleave team.
If you wait until Turn 2 to cleave you are giving them the opportunity to put up buffs/barriers/immunity and then artifacts start kicking in to add to randomness, so it'll be a lot less reliable. i.e. you don't want to give a tank team a chance to dig in (or a Dizzy to buff strip with Iela Violin, ugh). But it's a definite viable strategy if you pick your match-ups wisely (maybe other cleave comps) since C.Armin will keep Kise alive long enough. Don't be stuck in the mentality that Cleave has to be some AoE team wipe, I use two strong Single Target DPS units to delete their damage dealers and at that point it's just whittling away their C.Armin and Healer after Turn 1.
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This right here is the bullshit that will kill this game. If they aren't gonna nerf MLs they shouldn't be buffing them either.
SCs aside that is. Since people can actually get them.
During the Q&A this response was given:
I doubt they'll go through with it, but they also keep throwing out 7/31 as a date to balance the Mystic/ML summoning problem:
I think the rep is just on their heels and throwing out random dates so they don't get lynched lol.
It's amazing how poorly managed this game is. There's like a dozen of things on the wall that could push Epic 7 in a healthy direction again, and they just ignore it. How can one company be so goddamn incompetent? Why do things need to be internally discussed when there are obvious solutions to some of these flawed design choices? Gets me actually fucking livid I gave these dudes some of my money since they clearly don't deserve it.
It sucks because this game genuinely has a good base, too. FUCK!
It sucks because this game genuinely has a good base, too. FUCK!
All they have to do is stop selling Mystic packs. They won't though because that's too much money.
Oh well. Glad I'm not super competative.
Oh well. Glad I'm not super competative.
Good points. Somehow I forgot that the enemy team would get a chance to defend itself too lol. I was too focused on wondering how to keep Kkse alive until turn 2.
You're right, though. I like the idea of fast team wipes in PvP both for the win rate and the amount of effort/time spent on each fight. But my roster doesn't have any good AoE units, so I was wondering how viable it would be to shoehorn Kise into that role.
But judging by my current roster, I think it would make more sense to take the same route as you and just try to pick off the biggest threats, then finish off the fight at my leisure. I have A.Coli and I've always wanted to build her, so maybe I should just do that instead.
Oh, another question. Does Hell Cutter build stacks from extra turn procs, like Karin's extra hits and R&L procs?
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Advice seeking time. I've currently cleared all the normal adventures, currently in 1-8 of world difficulty, and struggling with Hunt level 8 in all of them. I have enough to upgrade one character to 6*, just not sure who would be most beneficial. I've read that another dps would be ideal for my next 6*.
Currently use this core of 6 characters to do most things in the game.
6* - Vildred, Angelica
5* - Sol, Tenebria, Chloe, Clarissa
But I also have these guys at 5 or 4 stars, who might be more beneficial long term:
5* - Destina, Lidica, A. Mont, C.Lorina
4* - A. Cartuja, Surin, Achates, Karin, Silk, Rose, Kiris, Jecht, Roozid
Just don't know if I should upgrade one of the core team or if someone from the other pool is ready to jump up to the core team.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks...
Currently use this core of 6 characters to do most things in the game.
6* - Vildred, Angelica
5* - Sol, Tenebria, Chloe, Clarissa
But I also have these guys at 5 or 4 stars, who might be more beneficial long term:
5* - Destina, Lidica, A. Mont, C.Lorina
4* - A. Cartuja, Surin, Achates, Karin, Silk, Rose, Kiris, Jecht, Roozid
Just don't know if I should upgrade one of the core team or if someone from the other pool is ready to jump up to the core team.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks...
Yeah, they got roasted by some dude who wasn't even invited (but came anyways and got in LOL) and basically asked them if they would pay 12.000$ for a ML 5* random pity. Got a lot applause for that from the audience and the devs said they gonna reconsider the ML pity after that.
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I completely avoid A.Coli's in arena, they hit so hard and their base speed is crazy good. Problem is if you want her to be a single target nuke it's hard to build her for speed at the same time. Ideally you take advantage of that 122 base speed and have her open, but her S3 relies on her wiping an enemy. Definitely do-able as I've done with my Baiken, but it'll take some good Wyvern gear or a dedicated CR pusher. Her S3 if not killing an enemy is still subjected to effect resist, immunity, and RNG so as you climb Arena you'll find you are landing that stun less and less often.
You can live with Tenebria/Clarissa at 5* and use them for their defense break for now. Chloe can hit hard but I don't see her as much more than a W11 team member. If all purpose is your goal go for Sol, Lidica, or C. Lorina.
Personally I'd add Lidica, she carried me through so much content and I still use her in new Abyss/Raid content. So many bosses are easily CR manipulated and if you focus on building her for speed (I actually just have the Abyss 71 set on her) she will lap bosses and sometimes even prevent them from acting. She was a solid W9 and 10 team member for me too as she applies debuffs with her S3 and S2.
I think stick with a core team for now, from those I highly suggest Sol, especially for higher Golem hunts he's very useful.
In the current buff meta his dispell is also very useful. Also, you'd have one 6* in each element, that sounds nice.
Clarissa can help with dog farming, but you already have Vildred who's without doubt the best dog walker in the game already.
From the rest, C. Lorina is a good single target DPS that doesn't debuff, which helps with some of the PvE bullshit in the Automaton Tower or Abyss (maybe also in some Raids) where bosses thrive on debuffs. She is a good all-rounder in that regard, I don't see any unit in your roster that would be a better single target DPS anyway, and she would profit from getting 6*ed most.
Kiris is good enough at 5* if you want to use her, don't 6* her.
I highly suggest you look at Karin (possible 6*?) for Wyvern and Jecht for Banshee, Jecht is good enough at 5* as well. Roozid I've seen do his thing in arena even at 4*, but if you get Speed gear that good you might as well 5* him and seal the deal.
My Destina carried me through most of the PvE content of the game, cleanse + CR boost isn't too bad - I'm not sure how she fares in direct comparison with A. Mont though, so either of those sound like a good choice as well depending on where you use them.
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Nah, they know what they want to do, and everything they say they want to is mostly lip service. They're making the big bucks, complaints don't matter much, and they know it.
What are people complaining about? Haven't been able to keep up properly.
Anyone pining for less than a 40 pity summon for MLs is aware this will only bolster whales even more, right? In fact there will be MORE among the top 4/5 ranks will stall comps we all hate so much.
The speed of content release is in line with most other Gachas as well.
I just want more Molagora per week so I can enjoy my characters more and counter characters as necessary.
Anyone pining for less than a 40 pity summon for MLs is aware this will only bolster whales even more, right? In fact there will be MORE among the top 4/5 ranks will stall comps we all hate so much.
The speed of content release is in line with most other Gachas as well.
I just want more Molagora per week so I can enjoy my characters more and counter characters as necessary.
They do, they just don't want to remove their cash cow which is busted ML units in Mystic Packs.
The only way out of this for them is to remove Mystic Summons and consolidate summoning currencies. Screw ML bookmarks, etc, just make the ML summons more expensive covenant summons (I don't know, like 50 covenant bm's) and let players decide what they want to spend their marks on. They'd probably do better fiscally too as I don't see how it would slow down spending and it'd open the summon pool up to more F2P/dolphins that could turn into potential whales. Right now a $99 Mystic Pack is pure P2W, it's so expensive there's really nobody but whales that will keep buying them.
I don't think the people that are asking for a single 5* ML unit in 9 months of playtime are too worried about Legend/Champion being slightly more whale-y. The pity system is meant for people that have had bad luck, by definition they aren't competing at those levels anyway. Whales are more likely to land dupes anyway since it's probably the whole ML pool in pity, not a selection. The reason they like Mystics so much is that it isolates the new character and all but guarantees them the unit. As is right now I'm not exactly sure whales are buying up packs just for ML summons and I don't think they'd do so just to hit pity?
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Wow, that conference was brutal. It was basically damage control and mostly non-answers all the way through.
Though to be fair, a lot of the questions also just sounded like rage.
I get that continuing to make content on a game is hard, but the entire ML system as a whole never sat well with me.
Though to be fair, a lot of the questions also just sounded like rage.
I get that continuing to make content on a game is hard, but the entire ML system as a whole never sat well with me.
This is literally it. Having a separate gacha behind your gacha was never a good business model to begin with.
you realize that a 40 pity is even well beyond the realm of the vast majority of whales too right.
40 ML summons is 24,000 bookmarks
The fact that there was even a press conference for a mobile game that is raking in the big bucks is kind of hilarious. I feel like this is probably not normal in the slightest and there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay scummier gachas, but Ill reap the benefits this brings either way.
$12,000 for a 1 in 11 chance at your desired 5* ML! But wait, there's more, buy now and you'll get a 2 in 11 chance at your desired 5* ML! What a bargain!
Maybe I'm underestimating the lengths whales will go to, but I couldn't fathom spending $12,000 for a chance at something.
Where does this game even land on the spectrum of popularity in KR? The whole thing is silly, I don't know anything about mobile gaming in KR but the fact that there was a conference and only 12,000 people watched it make me think the game is either not popular or most of this is a non-issue to most the playing population.
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You get gold transmit stones not just by pulling summons though, so it's not like 24.000 bookmarks is accurate, or the amount that people would pay in sky stones. Meh, whatever, once people have the 5 units they need from those pools, they introduce a new one or we're all just nonstop grinding Wyvern for pitch-perfect gear with best possible stat gains once we reach that point.
I'm not sure what people see as the end game here, if the real problem is that people don't have fun in arena then it would make more sense to diversify the amount of valid team comps and useful counters instead of saying "we'll give you a random ML 5 every 10 summons" or whatever.
I'm not sure what people see as the end game here, if the real problem is that people don't have fun in arena then it would make more sense to diversify the amount of valid team comps and useful counters instead of saying "we'll give you a random ML 5 every 10 summons" or whatever.
Spending $12,000 on a mobile game would be the sign of some sort of acute deficiency. I guess its not different than gambling but, bruh, its a video game. Spend that money on a spa day or something
I mean to put it in perspective, there were 12,000 people watching a korean-language only press conference during the middle of a work day (for NA) about a mobile game. Magic the Gathering streams (also relatively niche) on a weekend for tournaments hover around there on a good day, for example. I'd say the fact that there were 12k people viewing it means it's extremely popular, considering all other factors. I was more expecting like 3-4k viewers. Some views were also being cannibalized by the translation streams. Most of E7's popularity is definitely from Global market though. Korea are just the home base and the biggest voice.
I think it's addressing the concern that whales would abuse the pity system to get stronger, hinting at just buying their way to multiple pity pulls until they got desired unit. I don't think they are even that dumb at that cost.
But yeah, I think the end-game is Arena diversity and I don't know how they get there besides majorly buffing a lot of units and then making PvE unbalanced. They've put themselves into a bit of a corner. They tried a elemental PvP counter and people went ballistic, so just releasing a bunch of niche elemental counters that don't break PvE isn't going to make people happy (although I like that approach).
Ah, good to know!
Yeah, we are framing all of this under the perspective of it being a normal game. It's not, no matter how much we want it to be aka people spent thousands of dollars to get those characters and get them to god tier levels. Some even whale to SSS those units.
I think the issue is that the game is so pretty and it runs so well, people want to think that it isn't a gacha, but a real video game. Not making excuses for it, but this game is designed from the ground up to eat your money. It isn't trying to be DOTA. The fact that people are spending so much money on it, makes it a very slippery slope to deal with nerfs, because the long term effect of nerfs is people don't whale as much. Even though I do agree the game needs some sort of rebalancing in regards to MLs and Limited Summons, from a business perspective it's dangerous.
Ah, so you need to build for extremely high speed on top of the usual attack/crit stuff. Or give yourself some leeway by CR pushing her anyway.
So what exactly is a CR push anyway? When a unit says it gives 20% CR, how exactly does that translate to making a slow unit moving before a fast one? Are there still breakpoints for how much a CR will help? For example, if a unit is like 100 speed, will a 20% CR push make that unit move before an enemy 200 speed unit?
I like to treat the game as a step or two above a clicker game. It's so grindy and you're autoing stuff so often that PvE wise, it's surprisingly close to that.
PvP is more like the side mini game alongside that almost-a-clicker game to me.
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Problem with nerfing is that is just shifts the meta. There will always be a meta, there was before the ML barrage, and there will be after. I think devs come to the realization after a while that people just drift to the easy button and abuse that. A game like this is near impossible to balance perfectly in a rock/paper/scissors fashion, especially if they want to keep it interesting with new units.
Instead they are trying to bring direct counters in like Lilibet (strictly PvP niche so doesn't upset PvE) but they clearly need to ramp up the quantity and availability of those units to have a hard impact.
It's not a speed buff/debuff. It's a straight percentage push. So if you click the hourglass on the left side where the battle meter is you'll see what everyone's combat readiness is in a percentage form. So a 20% CR push actually just bumps you from say, 75% to 95%. How they normalize speed into percentages (i.e. does the fastest unit in a battle set what 100% is?), I don't know. But I do know that my 200 speed Baiken is always pushed to 100% with my 230 speed Roozid but my 120 speed Luna needs another CR push from Baiken to hit 100%.
Keeping in mind each unit is subjected to a +/- 5 speed change at the start of battle. Occasionally they'll line up on the extremes and my ~215 speed Dizzy will outspeed my 230 speed Roozid (due to the +8 speed imprint and the random +/- 5 on each unit).
Instead they are trying to bring direct counters in like Lilibet (strictly PvP niche so doesn't upset PvE) but they clearly need to ramp up the quantity and availability of those units to have a hard impact.
It's not a speed buff/debuff. It's a straight percentage push. So if you click the hourglass on the left side where the battle meter is you'll see what everyone's combat readiness is in a percentage form. So a 20% CR push actually just bumps you from say, 75% to 95%. How they normalize speed into percentages (i.e. does the fastest unit in a battle set what 100% is?), I don't know. But I do know that my 200 speed Baiken is always pushed to 100% with my 230 speed Roozid but my 120 speed Luna needs another CR push from Baiken to hit 100%.
Keeping in mind each unit is subjected to a +/- 5 speed change at the start of battle. Occasionally they'll line up on the extremes and my ~215 speed Dizzy will outspeed my 230 speed Roozid (due to the +8 speed imprint and the random +/- 5 on each unit).
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Recalls give you back everything you invested. That includes rank and exp in the form of phantasmas and penguins.
Thanks - thats actually not bad....looking forward to invest that stuff into another unit then xD
Thanks, that clears things up.
This is where I admit that I've never seen that hourglass before, and didn't know you could click on it ahahahaha.
BRB checking the interface
I worked in mobile gaming, a lot of the rare white whales are a lot more stable and sensible people than people make it sound. They are just filthy rich. Some people buy a Yacht they never even use, others do this. The late state of capitalism - decadence.
I'm not saying ALL of them are stable or sensible though. In my experience, the really competitive dolphins (mid spenders) can get a lot more crazy both in terms of overspending compared to their actual budget and also in the general craziness department. The really high spending whales usually wouldn't rage at the devs in a press conference. They might send a polite message stating what they want - fully aware of their position. And if their demands aren't met, they move to the next game.
Whales are pretty chill.
(YMMV!)
Another thing is that the community is very good at voicing the problems, but really bad at finding the solution.
It's the reason your doctor asks you what your symptoms are - because you know best - but he sure as hell won't let you suggest your own treatment or make your own diagnosis. Seeing weekly or bi-weekly updates and bug fixes (not talking about balancing "fixes") and saying "they need to crank out content faster" is just asking for more P2W. You can only grow a team so much without expecting higher payouts from the game as a studio. A lot of the player voiced cures are more or less "we want you to make less money and do more things", so I'm not sure how people can be honestly surprised that they aren't acting on that immediately.
(For the record, I also know of companies that achieved great results, also financially, by improving their player focus more, but even those companies get trashed by their players, so eh. It can be done, just not as radical as "they should just remove all microtransactions and make the game a one time purchase".)
Think of CR as the order of the players on the little line on the left of the screen. Let's say it's a 100m line - higher speed units will always cross the goal line faster and get a turn. If you push a units CR by 20%, let's say you pull them 20m closer towards the goal, meaning they could cross the finish line before a speedy unit just huffing along. It's just a one-time boost, like, I don't know, a mushroom in Mario Kart. It's very situational, but it's something you can build around easily if you have speedy CR pushers or slowers.
I'm not saying ALL of them are stable or sensible though. In my experience, the really competitive dolphins (mid spenders) can get a lot more crazy both in terms of overspending compared to their actual budget and also in the general craziness department. The really high spending whales usually wouldn't rage at the devs in a press conference. They might send a polite message stating what they want - fully aware of their position. And if their demands aren't met, they move to the next game.
Whales are pretty chill.
(YMMV!)
Another thing is that the community is very good at voicing the problems, but really bad at finding the solution.
It's the reason your doctor asks you what your symptoms are - because you know best - but he sure as hell won't let you suggest your own treatment or make your own diagnosis. Seeing weekly or bi-weekly updates and bug fixes (not talking about balancing "fixes") and saying "they need to crank out content faster" is just asking for more P2W. You can only grow a team so much without expecting higher payouts from the game as a studio. A lot of the player voiced cures are more or less "we want you to make less money and do more things", so I'm not sure how people can be honestly surprised that they aren't acting on that immediately.
(For the record, I also know of companies that achieved great results, also financially, by improving their player focus more, but even those companies get trashed by their players, so eh. It can be done, just not as radical as "they should just remove all microtransactions and make the game a one time purchase".)
Think of CR as the order of the players on the little line on the left of the screen. Let's say it's a 100m line - higher speed units will always cross the goal line faster and get a turn. If you push a units CR by 20%, let's say you pull them 20m closer towards the goal, meaning they could cross the finish line before a speedy unit just huffing along. It's just a one-time boost, like, I don't know, a mushroom in Mario Kart. It's very situational, but it's something you can build around easily if you have speedy CR pushers or slowers.
Except there are always obvious outliers and the way to fix those outliers is to bring them closer in line to everyone else.
I mean, C. Armin is in 77% of teams in the top 100 at this point. What the hell kind of "counter" are they going to bring in to fix that, huh? I mean you already have a character like Iseria who's been in the game since launch (def break + buff dispel + buff block on the same skill) and even she's not enough, how absurd is a real "counter" to C. Armin gonna be?
It's completely insane to expect anything to be fixed with constant power creeping counter bullshit.
There's no reason to be sad. Dark Corvus is literally THE premier offensive ML 5* unit. There is not a single arena team composition in the entire game that he can't smash through.
At this point you'd basically need an oblivion mechanic to shut passives down.
I'm a bit on the fence with CArmin. I've hated her forever, and still hate her, but realizing more that without her, cleaves would just do too much and then it comes down to speed.
But at the same time, they keep introducing more damage mitigation (new arti), that doesn't stack, so it might get better and she's not mandatory pick. But I still feel like they should tone her down. If so, maybe you'll see other knights with adamant shield.
yeah sorry, as someone with 0 ML 5*s I have
no pity
Decrease the impact of her passive over time. Every turn that passes it goes from 30% -> 15%. Bam, no longer super duper ultra cancer.
(For that matter, the same thing should apply to heals in arena and GW...)
no pity
Well you see, there's a shockingly easy solution to that and it's something included on the latest released artifact:
Decrease the impact of her passive over time. Every turn that passes it goes from 30% -> 15%. Bam, no longer super duper ultra cancer.
(For that matter, the same thing should apply to heals in arena and GW...)
People asking for shorter S3 animations will ruin the game for me. How good it looks is the reason I play this dumb game.
Also asking for artifacts and heroes to have separate gachas is dumb.
I'm fine with the covenant/ rate up system because it's what I'm used too in FGO.
Wasn't sure about how I felt having yet another currency for 3* skill ups but it might be nice to +15 Mont, Kluri and Lorina.
Also asking for artifacts and heroes to have separate gachas is dumb.
I'm fine with the covenant/ rate up system because it's what I'm used too in FGO.
Wasn't sure about how I felt having yet another currency for 3* skill ups but it might be nice to +15 Mont, Kluri and Lorina.
I mean... I'd be OK if they let us skip s3s. As someone who played during the Diene meta. Holy cow, the most gorgeous s3 that I never want to see again.
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