Epic Store's way of "competing" is one that actively hurt the market

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,538
Pretty sure I've never bought a game for Steam from anywhere BUT Steam. If I got a Steam key from somewhere other than Steam it was something like Humble Bundle and was basically free, so they're still screwed.

I cannot see how that makes a big difference in the scheme of things.

Side note: Epic also waives Unreal engine fee for games on the Epic store.
There are people other than you.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
744
The market is going to be fine.
Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
At the same time you just admitted to arguing in bad faith when you spout nonsense about "supporting the devs" and then backtracking to "supporting the publishers, at least someone else gets the money instead of Valve". Also, please don't spread lies to further your (barely existing) arguments. Valve has not been "sitting on their ass", they funneled money and manpower into Linux gaming a lot in these past months, but I guess that doesn't fit your agenda of just trolling.
Not trolling, just my opinion. Sad that an opinion you don't agree with is automatically trolling.

I didn't argue in bad faith. I simply conflated developers and publishers in this context. The argument is still the same minus the terminology mix up: the producers (devs and publishers) receive more money.

Steam may be investing money in certain things, yes, but they shouldn't have taken this long to work on Linux gaming. It should have been an early priority rather than them working on all the other "fluff" that Steam is. It's a storefront and should have remained that rather than becoming some cesspool of a community.
 
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GhostTrick

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,772
The market is going to be fine.
Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
Ah yes, Valve has been doing nothing in years.. Yet people such as you are telling me "Epic Store cant compete on feature since Valve has been working on them for years". Pick one, not both.
As for the "easy option of opening the floodgates"... yeah, it's called giving indie devs a chance. If an indie is struggling, that's because the platform is crowded. Because of good games. Because of better games. A problem Switch doesn't have yet, for obvious reasons.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
There are people other than you.
True, but can you show me sales statistics to back up your claim that these free keys are making up a significant chunk of overall sales? I cannot find statistics regarding sales period with a cursory search.

Ah yes, Valve has been doing nothing in years.. Yet people such as you are telling me "Epic Store cant compete on feature since Valve has been working on them for years". Pick one, not both.
As for the "easy option of opening the floodgates"... yeah, it's called giving indie devs a chance. If an indie is struggling, that's because the platform is crowded. Because of good games. Because of better games. A problem Switch doesn't have yet, for obvious reasons.
You've gotta be kidding me, right?

The biggest complaint I hear about the Switch eShop is that it's flooded with a lot of crap. There are games on there that are garbage but are top sellers because they are always on sale, one was 50 cents specifically and was absolute trash, but everybody bought it for two quarters.
 

Joshii

Member
May 27, 2018
418
"Opening the floodgates"

Last I checked it was indie devs who wanted it and even decided on the price of Steam Direct to make it possible.
 

daxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,314
Steam may be investing money in certain things, yes, but they shouldn't have taken this long to work on Linux gaming. It should have been an early priority rather than them working on all the other "fluff" that Steam is. It's a storefront and should have remained that rather than becoming some cesspool of a community.
Could you outline which features are fluff which and are not?
 

Komo

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,770
The market is going to be fine.

Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
This is factually wrong. They've improved it, quick a lot actually. And they've moderated content, Remember Hatred, remember the countless games that had their kotaku moment. Remember when people complained about Greenlight. Well this was the same thing except it isn't community approved.

Epic is going to cause a PC Sales crash, and it will push a bunch of people to stop paying for games on PC. Because of how it is being handled. Epic is singlehandedly going to kill AAA games being released on PC and actually succeeding at it.
 

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,167
Steam may be investing money in certain things, yes, but they shouldn't have taken this long to work on Linux gaming. It should have been an early priority rather than them working on all the other "fluff" that Steam is. It's a storefront and should have remained that rather than becoming some cesspool of a community.
Linux user here.

They have been working on it constantly for at least 6 years now, and have contributed more in the area than any other company I can think of. The developments this year haven't just suddenly arrived, it's been the result of things they have built up and invested god knows how much money into over the span of over a third of Steam's entire existence.

It's definitely been a priority for them.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
The market is going to be fine.
Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
The storefront improved, and opening the floodgates was good. What a shitpost.
The reason some games ate selling more on the switch has jackshit to do with it too. That's literally not how anything works.
 
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GhostTrick

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,772
True, but can you show me sales statistics to back up your claim that these free keys are making up a significant chunk of overall sales? I cannot find statistics regarding sales period with a cursory search.


You've gotta be kidding me, right?

The biggest complaint I hear about the Switch eShop is that it's flooded with a lot of crap. There are games on there that are garbage but are top sellers because they are always on sale, one was 50 cents specifically and was absolute trash, but everybody bought it for two quarters.
The release schedule is far from being as filled. Both being quantity or quality wise.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
Could you outline which features are fluff which and are not?
All the trading garbage, achievements, forums, and basically anything that's not immediately related to the purchasing and playing of games. They couldn't even manage game reviews properly until recently.

Cloud saves...that's really the only thing off the top of my head that I would consider not fluff.

Maybe VAC type stuff for multiplayer games, but I don't play online, so I don't deal with it, but I can see the value if it was well executed. Like I said, no experience so even that may be crap for all I know.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
744
The storefront improved, and opening the floodgates was good. What a shitpost.
The reason some games ate selling more on the switch has jackshit to do with it too. That's literally not how anything works.
Yeah opening the floodgates for any clown with enough time, asset flips and upload fee was working fuckimg great. Love seeing pages of trash hog the front page spotlight.

What a shitpost.
 
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GhostTrick

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,772
20+ games are released on the eShop alone most weeks and many weeks are far more than 20. This doesn't even include retail releases as well. It's just not filled with things you want.

20+ games are released on Steam alone most DAYS.
And if I'm talking about what I'd call legit games, you're still in the 10+ games per day. PER DAY.

Yeah opening the floodgates for any clown with enough time, asset flips and upload fee was working fuckimg great. Love seeing pages of trash hog the front page spotlight.

What a shitpost.
Alright. Time to prove your point. Show me the "trash" on the "front page spotlight".
I'm waiting. Otherwise, you're shitposting little console warrior.
 

Linkark07

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,213
All the trading garbage, achievements, forums, and basically anything that's not immediately related to the purchasing and playing of games. They couldn't even manage game reviews properly until recently.

Cloud saves...that's really the only thing off the top of my head that I would consider not fluff.

Maybe VAC type stuff for multiplayer games, but I don't play online, so I don't deal with it, but I can see the value if it was well executed. Like I said, no experience so even that may be crap for all I know.
Forums aren't necessary? That's all I needed today.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Yeah opening the floodgates for any clown with enough time, asset flips and upload fee was working fuckimg great. Love seeing pages of trash hog the front page spotlight.

What a shitpost.[/
QUOTE]
LMAO
Of all the shit you could have said, you went and said the one anyone with a brain and 5 seconds of free time can check that it's wrong. GG
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,168
Yeah opening the floodgates for any clown with enough time, asset flips and upload fee was working fuckimg great. Love seeing pages of trash hog the front page spotlight.

What a shitpost.
Show your front page with trash?

Put up your evidence.

On the front page of Steam. A wall of trash that you folks like to talk about

I want to see that wall of asset flips that so plague your and other peoples front page.

I better not see any kind of search window
 

daxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,314
All the trading garbage, achievements, forums, and basically anything that's not immediately related to the purchasing and playing of games. They couldn't even manage game reviews properly until recently.

Cloud saves...that's really the only thing off the top of my head that I would consider not fluff.

Maybe VAC type stuff for multiplayer games, but I don't play online, so I don't deal with it, but I can see the value if it was well executed. Like I said, no experience so even that may be crap for all I know.
Gotcha. A lot of those things are coming to the Epic store this year though, so brace yourself.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,529
Epic's gonna keep the floodgates shut and barred THANK GOD because the indie hordes are swelling on the other side.

Keep our 30 games safe and chaste.
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,666
Where is all of this Trash on the front page? I must have been using Steam incorrectly all this time.
Gotta make hyperbolic statements to sound legit. Plus suggestions exist, so if you only see asset flips then that's probably cause you look into loads of them.

And remember when people wanted steam to open the floodgates and how it was bad to gate the little man?
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,016
Not trolling, just my opinion. Sad that an opinion you don't agree with is automatically trolling.

I didn't argue in bad faith. I simply conflated developers and publishers in this context. The argument is still the same minus the terminology mix up: the producers (devs and publishers) receive more money.

Steam may be investing money in certain things, yes, but they shouldn't have taken this long to work on Linux gaming. It should have been an early priority rather than them working on all the other "fluff" that Steam is. It's a storefront and should have remained that rather than becoming some cesspool of a community.
I call you out on trolling because you use superficial arguments, when others point them out and just move the goalposts and anyone not agreeing with you is a despicable human being because we don't "want" the devs to get their due. Hey I don't have a problem with actual devs trying to get more money, but so far all we've seen are publishers cutting deals with Epic with rumors that the respective devs are not happy with that decision and many other devs openly opioning the exact opposite of doing business with Epic.
And for only 12% instead of 30% and in a fraction of the time...I don't know how they can manage to afford that...
Already forgotten about the cut "influencers" get for playing the games on stream?
 

Muad'dib

Member
Jun 7, 2018
870
And for only 12% instead of 30% and in a fraction of the time...I don't know how they can manage to afford that...
Lol if you think that 12% cut is going to pay for all of that instead of the Fortnite revenue which not only is paying for the moneyhatting but also covering all the projected lost Steam sales.

That 30% Valve takes made Proton, OpenVR a possibility what did Epic contribute aside from introducing bullshit like moneyhatting to PC?
 

Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,531
If Steam didn't "open the floodgates" it wouldn't have Caves of Qud and that would be a real tragedy.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
I call you out on trolling because you use superficial arguments, when others point them out and just move the goalposts and anyone not agreeing with you is a despicable human being because we don't "want" the devs to get their due. Hey I don't have a problem with actual devs trying to get more money, but so far all we've seen are publishers cutting deals with Epic with rumors that the respective devs are not happy with that decision and many other devs openly opioning the exact opposite of doing business with Epic.
That's a developer/publisher relationship issue. They don't like how their publisher is dealing, they need to deal with the publisher.

Or telling devs to pay influencers a % cut to market their game.
That's a choice. Nobody is forced to do that, but it might work out for some people. That's for individual developers and publishers to decide.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,168
That's a developer/publisher relationship issue. They don't like how their publisher is dealing, they need to deal with the publisher.


That's a choice. Nobody is forced to do that, but it might work out for some people. That's for individual developers and publishers to decide.
I like how you ignored the whole Epic overcharging people by forcing them to pay Epic’s costs with payment processors.
 

Alexandros

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,606
The market is going to be fine.
Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
Nope. Everyone trying to insert console-like 'competition', in the PC space is going to face backlash, including Valve. The market will most certainly not be fine for anyone choosing to engage in such practices. The rest of your comment about Valve has zero basis in reality.
 

Muad'dib

Member
Jun 7, 2018
870
The market is going to be fine.
Valve had all the time IN THE WORLD to improve their storefront, actually moderate content, and provide good deals and benefits for big and small publishers alike. Instead they chose the braindead easy option of opening the floodgates and raking in no effort cash to the point where Indie devs were making more sales on the Nintendo Switch online store than Steam on launch. Now they have to step up, and if that means buying exclusive rights limited time than so be it.
Yeah the market was super fine with GFWL trying to introduce payed multiplayer to PC, look how well the market accepted that....

Here's the thing about PC gaming, there's always a choice when it comes to gaming on PC, that's what made people tell MS to fuck off with GFWL and that's why people are saying the same to Epic. Unlike other platforms where users are beholden to the rules dictated by the platform manufacturer.
 
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Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
10,477
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Guys, remember that you can disagree without being hostile to one another.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,538
True, but can you show me sales statistics to back up your claim that these free keys are making up a significant chunk of overall sales? I cannot find statistics regarding sales period with a cursory search.
Not got any data to hand (data is out there though), but why would developers bother putting their games on Humble et al if they weren't selling? There's an entire ecosystem of digital retailers selling Steam keys. Because it's a market with money coming in.

Steam is the market leader, but other stores have market share too.

Edit: This tracks some historical humble bundle sales, since the data is public
https://cheesetalks.net/humble/

Note that Humble monthly subscriptions and Humble store sales are not included, just bundles.

Total Payments: $128,742,720.27, now that's total including games without Steam leys, but the bulk of them will be for Steam keys.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
Fuck people that live in countries that don’t get credit cards amrite?
It happens for a select few and it does indeed suck, but most of the processors which aren't covered by Epic have alternatives that are covered by Epic.

Statistically, most people are not paying processor fees. Does not mean all by any means, but it is not as large a piece of the pie as you seem to be implying.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
744
For a storefront, no they're not necessary. Forums are going to exist elsewhere, so it would be better to focus time and effort on managing your actual store rather than provide a place for people to be their worst selves.
Eh, of all of Valves issues I don't mind the forums for games and troubleshooting. I found some good solutions to compatibility problems on there. Everything else is a moderation issue.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,168
It happens for a select few and it does indeed suck, but most of the processors which aren't covered by Epic have alternatives that are covered by Epic.

Statistically, most people are not paying processor fees. Does not mean all by any means, but it is not as large a piece of the pie as you seem to be implying.
Sounds like a cop out excuse and disregarding populations with the least options.

And your excuse about how it’s not important sounds like the excuses about how the countries without regional pricing still are unfortunate but not a major problem.
 

Muad'dib

Member
Jun 7, 2018
870
It happens for a select few and it does indeed suck, but most of the processors which aren't covered by Epic have alternatives that are covered by Epic.

Statistically, most people are not paying processor fees. Does not mean all by any means, but it is not as large a piece of the pie as you seem to be implying.
So screw me right?
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,016
Just leaving this here in case anyone wants to do some homework.
  • That any company can operate a store for PC Windows games and apps in UWP format – as Valve, Good Old Games, Epic Games, EA, and Ubi Soft do today with the win32 format, and that Windows will not impede or obstruct these apps stores, relegating them to second-class citizenship.
  • That users, developers, and publishers will always be free to engage in direct commerce with each other, without Microsoft forcing everyone into its formative in-app commerce monopoly and taking a 30% cut.
So basically Tim Sweeney is a liar that is fine with shady business practices and cutting out choice as long as he and his friends from Tencent get their sweet dollar.
 

katkombat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
109
This is factually wrong. They've improved it, quick a lot actually. And they've moderated content, Remember Hatred, remember the countless games that had their kotaku moment. Remember when people complained about Greenlight. Well this was the same thing except it isn't community approved.

Epic is going to cause a PC Sales crash, and it will push a bunch of people to stop paying for games on PC. Because of how it is being handled. Epic is singlehandedly going to kill AAA games being released on PC and actually succeeding at it.

This is....paranoia. Honestly, I love the metro games but I would bet money if the game released on steam it still would’ve sold under expectations. it’s not like we’ve EVER seen ads plastered everywhere for a metro game. Shit, look at some of the responses here: “til metro comes out in two weeks”. I’m a fan and I didn’t realize til this announcement. I kind of hate fracturing playerbases/client users as well but it’s sooo early to start freaking out claiming a crash is inevitable
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,168
Does that happen with every purchase? I feel like this topic hasn't come up a lot.
It’s happening with many non-credit card payment methods, and those same methods are not getting charged extra in other stores, Steam, Uplay etc.

We have seen some people paying 4-5 Euros more on a full priced game.
 

RadzPrower

Member
Jan 19, 2018
645
Does that happen with every purchase? I feel like this topic hasn't come up a lot.
No, it does not happen with all purchases. In fact, unless you are living in an unlucky area where that is your only choice, many alternative payment options are not charged processing fees either. It seems that most of the ones being charged are the ones that are charging significantly more per transaction than the others. I've seen the figure of 10% come up often with some of the worst offenders.

Still, as bad as it may be for certain customers, companies eating the cost of these large transaction fees just allows the process to continue because the customers do not generally realize that the fees are so high. Making the customer pay will bring it to their attention and in some cases may cause them to look at an alternative if there is one.

Approximately 80% of sales are through credit cards and PayPal which have zero fees associated. Even among the 20% remaining, many of those alternative methods are covered as well. Only 12 of the methods listed on Epic's website require fees and many of those have alternatives within that country that are fee free.