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Oct 26, 2017
865
I'm going to try to communicate this as respectful as possible.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156122868542922&id=86973707921&

I am a trans woman.

Imagine. When you first come to the community one of the biggest things most girls transitioning wanted to avoid was being seen as a man in a dress. This seven years ago. Not only did women want to avoid it because that is how the media and larger society saw us as, but there was also the fact that the mere thought of looking like a man in a dress was enough to cause many girls fall into a panic attack. Suffice to say, it was to be avoided. It wasn't cute.

Instead, you put maximum effort into being representing yourself and the community in the best manner possible because you wanted to look your best. You didn't want to get clocked, because getting clocked meant bad news.

Shows like Family Guy and South Park would air episodes distilling trans women to either performative antics of feminity or really just men with mutilated body parts. It was humiliating seeing your community dehumanized on television like this.

But you said your piece online and shut up and then watched a new makeup tutorial on YouTube or did a voice lesson. You did anything to put hard work into your presentation.

Fast forward to now.

Suddenly there's people who are completely different from your ethos sharing your label as trans.

These people are fine being masculine while expressing feminity.

They are fine being seen as "men in dresses."

They are fine not even shaving or waxing their arms while demanding that society deem them to be women.

Suddenly you have people who think these things are completely fine while taking a label of "trans", something people fought long and hard to avoid being seen as this.

Where they equate "womanhood" as nothing more than performative acts like putting on a cheap dress from a thrift store.

These people now represent you in the media. You do NOT agree with them about ANYTHING but still they share the label as trans.

When you plead that having masculine presentation while wearing and behaving that like that is potentially harmful to transsexual women and how we are seen, we are accused of being transphobic. You just have to shut the fuck up and accept it.

The video I linked above disgusts me. Words cannot describe my daily loathing of the non-binaries in the video I linked. I find it offensive, a caricature of woman-hood. Drag is at least artistic and with a set goal in mind, but I'm not seeing it here. Yet drag is often called awful and exploitive by this group regularly.

I'm trying to understand but I cannot get past the fact that these people think we share even the slightest cause. The trans women I know would kill ourselves before we ever looked like that while claiming to be trans. We suffer daily because we see the slightest hair on our face or body. Body hair at all is enough to make me want to claw my skin till it bleeds and fall into a puddle of dysphoric agony. Then these people, who just don't give a shit, claim to be EXACTLY LIKE US, that we share the same problems, or even situation.

It is beyond infuriating and I'm trying to be open, but every non-binary I see just feels like a slap to the face. I'm really trying and failing.

Please help me with this. I feel like as a trans woman my perspective no longer matters, and now we have to kowtow to what are seemingly men in dresses.
 

rstzkpf

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,072
I don't even know what to say. This sounds kind of like terf rhetoic, tonally speaking.
Please help me with this. I feel like as a trans woman my perspective no longer matters, and now we have to kowtow to what are seemingly men in dresses.
giphy.gif
 

EarthBound64

User was permanently banned at own request
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Oct 25, 2017
1,802
Connecticut
I mean... not to be offensive or anything, but... it sounds like you have an extremely rigid definition of things, and are getting upset at people who don't fit into the categories that you have in mind...
People are different - you can be you, they can be them, and there's nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: Full disclosure: Cis-ace male.
 
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signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,182
Where they equate "womanhood" as nothing more than performative acts like putting on a cheap dress from a thrift store.

I don't know what to say about the OP in general, but how would you define womanhood? Or how does anyone define it in order to determine who is / isn't a woman?
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
I'm trying to understand you here....

You complain that media was unfairly saying transwomen were merely being performative... but now you're upset that there are transwomen who are not being performative enough?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Cis dude here.

To me, if someone who doesn't want to shave or put effort into being super effeminate says that they're a woman, then I accept that they are. It's the only moral thing to do.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,288
To be fair, you're not alone in feeling that way. These kinds of cliques sprung up around lesbian and gay cultures for ages. Personally I'm a "you do you" kind of person, but I can see how the label you've spent so long cultivating being co opted by people antithetical to your values might be upsetting. The only thing i can say to that is that you don't own what being trans means. I'm not trying to be mean when I say that, I'm just trying to say that we belong to our culture, it doesn't belong to us, so we really don't have much footing to gatekeep what is or isn't a cultural identity.
 

Deleted member 25606

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Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Your post and attitude is problematic to say the least. I don't want to presume but I would say introspection and self-work would benefit your search for understanding more than starting a "debate" on a forum.
 

BeYourOwn3AM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
255
Washington, DC
Non-binary and genderqueer folks have been part of the trans movement for as long as it has existed. You don't get to claim the term trans applies, or has ever applied, exclusively to more binary-identifying trans women.

Also, while I sympathize with and am aware of the complexities of the struggles you have personally faced, and continue to face, with your dysphoria:
The trans women I know would kill ourselves before we ever looked like that while claiming to be trans. We suffer daily because we see the slightest hair on our face or body. Body hair at all is enough to make me want to claw my skin till it bleeds and fall into a puddle of dysphoric agony.

This seems like a statement you need to step back and consider. You realize that cis women have body and facial hair, right? You seem to have a really rigid and dangerously stereotypical visions of what womanhood has to be. If that's who you want to be as a woman then fine, but as the poster below me noted, women present in all kinds of ways. Don't push your vision of feminity on other trans women, cis women, or non-binary femmes.
 
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Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
I'm not quite getting the hair thing... there's a girl in one of my classes who has a "boy" style cut, armpit hair, and doesn't wear a bra... but she's a girl and identifies as one.

Does this girl mess with your identification as a woman, because she doesn't care about looking more feminine? Are you mad at her too?
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
Non binaries can be themselves. Fine. But why are they presented as LITERALLY THE SAME THING as a trans woman? I went to an event for trans people and they had a non binary person there who was presenting as a cis woman yet doesn't identify as a woman while speaking for trans people. The topic was trans women and women's spaces and yet this voice, of someone who doesn't even identify as or claim to be woman, was considered before an actual trans woman. Is this not erasure? It sure as fuck seems like it?
 

RoboticWater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
135
Isn't gender performativity a philosophical underpinning of trans identity? I only have a cursory understanding of intersectional feminist theory though.

In any case, insisting that the existence of another gender group (or however you'd describe this) makes you suddenly subservient to their wishes is kinda ridiculous ("we have to kowtow to what are seemingly men in dresses"). Frankly, that seems like the same kind of logic that people used against trans people in the first place. I haven't seen the video you posted (I don't have a Facebook), but this seems like a case where we just accept people's behaviors and work together to create better future for everyone. I could be wrong, but I doubt that video is trying to usurp or distract from the trans community. Accepting more middle-of-the-road identities seems like it would be a part of accepting a spectrum of gender.
 

Deleted member 19003

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3,809
I'm a cis woman. I have never thought that other women who don't shave/pluck, wear their make up well, or wear bad fitting clothing are any less of a woman for it. You are being too hard on your fellow trans community by obsessing over their looks. Women come in all shapes, sizes and varying levels of make up and dress.
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Non binaries can be themselves. Fine. But why are they presented as LITERALLY THE SAME THING as a trans woman? I went to an event for trans people and they had a non binary person there who was presenting as a cis woman yet doesn't identify as a woman while speaking for trans people. The topic was trans women and women's spaces and yet this voice, of someone who doesn't even identify as or claim to be woman, was considered before an actual trans woman. Is this not erasure? It sure as fuck seems like it?
Simple, they're trans because they don't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.
 

EarthBound64

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Oct 25, 2017
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why are they presented as LITERALLY THE SAME THING as a trans woman? I went to an event for trans people and they had a non binary person there who was presenting as a cis woman yet doesn't identify as a woman while speaking for trans people. The topic was trans women and women's spaces and yet this voice, of someone who doesn't even identify as or claim to be woman, was considered before an actual trans woman. Is this not erasure? It sure as fuck seems like it?

That seems like an issue much more ripe for discussion than what is presented in the OP...
Yes, there is a spectrum to things.
 

rstzkpf

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Oct 27, 2017
1,072
you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the bigot
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
"Trans" people, like any other group of people, aren't going to be a monolith and won't share the same ideologies on what it means to be "trans" or how to express it despite this identity they all have in common.
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
As a non-binary person, I'm quite annoyed that I'm somehow not actually trans because of it, especially because I actually do want to go through MTF HRT, and look and act feminine. I just don't see myself as a woman. There's more to gender than just "looks and performance."
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
I don't see why we have to share the same tent. Why do we share the same umbrella? Our causes and needs are completely different.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
have you tried taking these concerns directly to those people who state to be non-binary, or do you have some contact with their perspective as to why they don't see themselves as "men in dresses", even when they don't do anything that you might consider woman-like.(their identity is mostly internal, I'm guessing? )

it seems like you have faced your battles, and you have made your choices and your actions to define yourself as who you are today, but you find issue with other people who haven't done the same. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, but is it fair?
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
As a non-binary person, I'm quite annoyed that I'm somehow not actually trans because of it, especially because I actually do want to go through MTF HRT, and look and act feminine. I just don't see myself as a woman. There's more to gender than just "looks and performance."

Do you have dysphoria? I never said you aren't trans at all.
 

Ketkat

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Oct 25, 2017
4,727
People who don't have dysphoria and want to be trans always felt pretty gross to me. But is that really nonbinary people?
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
People who don't have dysphoria and want to be trans always felt pretty gross to me. But is that really nonbinary people?

I completely agree.

I view non-binary people with dysphoria as legitimately trans.

I'm sorry, but dysphoria causes me actual disassociation. As in, if I'm having a heavy dysphoria episode, I WILL NOT RECOGNIZE MYSELF IN THE MIRROR. I literally do not know who that person is.

And then some person who has no dysphoria claims to be the exact same as me?

What in the fuck?
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Do you have dysphoria? I never said you aren't trans at all.
You don't need dysphoria to be trans, though in my case, I do. I hate my masculine appearance, I hate my masculine voice, the only thing I like is my dick. After that I want to look cute and feminine, but I don't see myself as a woman, it doesn't fit me, but non-binary does.

With that said, no one needs to go through HRT or get surgeries to be trans either, we just need to not see ourselves as the gender we were assigned at birth. After that it's up to us to decide what we want to do, and in my case I do want to get on hormones, and practice my voice, and grow out my hair, etc. Someone else could say they don't need anything done, and their just as valid, they're trans.
 

RoboticWater

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Oct 27, 2017
135
I don't see why we have to share the same tent. Why do we share the same umbrella? Our causes and needs are completely different.
Are they? I'll grant you that the medical aspect is almost entirely different, but representation and social acceptance? I would imagine that you would both be in favor of widespread acceptance of a gender spectrum as well as platforms that promote non-normative identities.
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
You don't need dysphoria to be trans, though in my case, I do. I hate my masculine appearance, I hate my masculine voice, the only thing I like is my dick. After that I want to look cute and feminine, but I don't see myself as a woman, it doesn't fit me, but non-binary does.

With that said, no one needs to go through HRT or get surgeries to be trans either, we just need to not see ourselves as the gender we were assigned at birth. After that it's up to us to decide what we want to do, and in my case I do want to get on hormones, and practice my voice, and grow out my hair, etc. Someone else could say they don't need anything done, and their just as valid, they're trans.

That's fine. At the very least, why is it articulated that all trans people are the same with the same needs? Why is someone who can get by life without transitioning seen as the same, with the same level of importance, as you or me?
 

BeYourOwn3AM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
255
Washington, DC
I completely agree.

I view non-binary people with dysphoria as legitimately trans.

I'm sorry, but dysphoria causes me actual disassociation. As in, if I'm having a heavy dysphoria episode, I WILL NOT RECOGNIZE MYSELF IN THE MIRROR. I literally do not know who that person is.

And then some person who has no dysphoria claims to be the exact same as me?

What in the fuck?

And it's awful that you have to suffer through that. But that doesn't make other people's identities less legitimate because they don't have to deal with the exact same/as severe dysphoria.

And which non-binary folks are claiming to be the exact same as you? 'Trans' has been an umbrella term for many identities for a long-ass time. Non-binary folks may have only recently become more visible, but they have been part of the trans rights and visibility movement for decades. They don't want to be seen as binary trans men or women Maybe the media conflates them with you, but that's the media's error not theirs.
 

Kthulhu

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Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Slightly off topic, but I couldn't finish that video, it was all over the place with what it wanted to talk about.
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
There's a lot more to being trans than just alleviating dysphoria.

?

Trans means to go across. If someone isn't transitioning how is it trans unless you have certain obstacles that limit your ability to transitioning? Like say, a medical issue such as an allergy or immunity or whatever? Or people who can't because of their current living situations but eventually have the goal of making that transition?

Of course, that's completely separate from not having dysphoria.

Strongly disagree. That's the whole thing to me.

Same.
 

Deleted member 20603

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As a CIS male, it used to bother me when people around me claimed I wasn't masculine enough. Now, I'm just happy to trundle off into the sunset, not caring about what other people think I should be, whether it's genital size or bicep size.

I guess the fundamental question here, is what makes a woman a woman, and what makes a man a man? I must admit, I am very happy to make a definition for myself, or even live without a definition. I'm going to be happy and not let others dictate how I should look like.

I would say I hope my opinion doesn't bother anyone, but I can't afford to both care about what other people's definitions of masculinity are while simultaneously accepting myself. I choose myself. I am for self-empowerment.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I'm both genders, male and female. Sorry, OP. Don't really know what to say besides I try my hardest to respect people's differences and not encroach where I shouldn't. But I still feel a connection to the trans community, because we share a knowledge of what it feels like when your brain does not match your body, so I'm always coming to the defense of the community.

But I don't call myself trans. I just say I'm both, or non-binary, and I have people that call me "She/Her" and people that call me "He/Him"
 
OP
OP
Cindi Mayweather
Oct 26, 2017
865
I'm both genders, male and female. Sorry, OP. Don't really know what to say besides I try my hardest to respect people's differences and not encroach where I shouldn't. But I still feel a connection to the trans community, because we share a knowledge of what it feels like when your brain does not match your body, so I'm always coming to the defense of the community.

But I don't call myself trans. I just say I'm both, or non-binary, and I have people that call me "She/Her" and people that call me "He/Him"

I respect this fully. So is it comparable to two spirit? How does it work for you? Can you expound on how you define your non-binary identity?

The non-binary people I've met I get the most are intersex. Their positions have a lot of clout with me but I don't understand being non-binary without an intersex condition. Could you please explain?
 

sabrina

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Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I'm both genders, male and female. Sorry, OP. Don't really know what to say besides I try my hardest to respect people's differences and not encroach where I shouldn't. But I still feel a connection to the trans community, because we share a knowledge of what it feels like when your brain does not match your body, so I'm always coming to the defense of the community.

But I don't call myself trans. I just say I'm both, or non-binary, and I have people that call me "She/Her" and people that call me "He/Him"
Is that like intersex? I would love to see some medical literature on the matter if you have any. I've never understood non-binary before, but I want to learn.
 

Deleted member 15948

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They are fine not even shaving or waxing their arms while demanding that society deem them to be women.

As a cis woman who doesn't shave or wax her arms (or legs, since IDGAF) ... excuse me? I wasn't aware anyone had to do this to be a 'real' woman.

Not going to lie, you sound incredibly sexist.
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Strongly disagree. That's the whole thing to me.
I can't really talk as someone who does have dysphoria, but you two might want to talk to trans people who don't have it

?

Trans means to go across. If someone isn't transitioning how is it trans unless you have certain obstacles that limit your ability to transitioning? Like say, a medical issue such as an allergy or immunity or whatever? Or people who can't because of their current living situations but eventually have the goal of making that transition?

Of course, that's completely separate from not having dysphoria.
Their gender identity, how they identify themselves, transfered from their assigned gender at birth to one they're more comfortable as, therefore, they're trans. That's it.
Everything else is just up to the individual. If they need HRT and surgery, go for it, if they just need HRT, go for that, if they just need to shave (or grow hair) and act differently, that's perfectly valid. Whatever makes them more comfortable with themselves.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
As a cis woman who doesn't shave or wax her arms (or legs, since IDGAF) ... excuse me? I wasn't aware anyone had to do this to be a 'real' woman.

Not going to lie, you sound incredibly sexist.

I think OP's post had a bit more nuance from a trans woman's perspective than what you've reduced them to from a CIS woman's perspective.
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
I guess I would put them each in different "buckets." A person who dresses as a women and puts forth the effort to display to the rest of society that she is a women is what I would call a women. A non-binary person who doesn't do this I would regard as a non-binary person. And I really wouldn't associate the two unless they each displayed themselves as associating.

To me, most trans people are like Huffman in transamerica. They just want to go through life with you not knowing their background and if you do know simply accepting it. Or they are trans, dress to their gender, and have the attitude, "Yeah, I'm trans, so fucking what?" A non-binary person seems to reject those options and just shows their personality open and nakedly to the rest of society.

I don't know the internal divide or what goes on in LGBTQA+ meetings and the politics between trans and non-binary, but for me, and I assume of others that accept both, they view them as belonging in different categories.

I think I relate to your frustration by being half native-american. If Elizabeth Warren starting pulling her Indian status all the damn time to compare her plight to mine I would be annoyed. Hell, I'm annoyed by the way a lot of half-natives pull that card to relate to me. It's annoying when a tribe other than yours claims to have gone through the same thing. But I'm pretty sure that most people put trans and non-binary in separate spheres. OP, as long as you accept that non-binary are just doing their thing and want to be treated with the same respect we or you give to everyone else it's fine to say they don't belong to your tribe and they are their own thing.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
It sounds a lot like you want to reinforce rigid gender roles? This is the problem for me, especially as a man of color whose masculinity has been challenged on the part of arbitrary standards and notions of Western masculinity that marginalize those men who do not meet those standards.
 

Deleted member 20603

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Oct 28, 2017
946
As a cis woman who doesn't shave or wax her arms (or legs, since IDGAF) ... excuse me? I wasn't aware anyone had to do this to be a 'real' woman.

Not going to lie, you sound incredibly sexist.

I don't claim to know anything about the transgender experience, but I think this is the argument I was going to make about the masculine side. Like, having a smaller "thing" somehow means less of a man. It's incredibly hurtful to some people to belittle them based upon their physical attributes, or to claim they are somehow less of a woman or man because of them.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,928
From where I'm sitting your problem is less with non-binary people and more with trans people who don't really experience dysphoria physically. The trans people I've dated and talked to about their experiences have only really experienced dysphoria related to gender roles and expectations rather than being uncomfortable in their own skin. I don't think that's any less valid than your case, it may be easier for them to present the way they want because they don't have to deal with physically transitioning but their pain is still real.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I respect this fully. So is it comparable to two spirit? How does it work for you? Can you expound on how you define your non-binary identity?

The non-binary people I've met I get the most are intersex. Their positions have a lot of clout with me but I don't understand being non-binary without an intersex condition. Could you please explain?
Well, for a long while, there seemed to be very specific timeframes where I would involuntarily switch between one or the other. Tended to be female at night, male during the day. But a couple years ago, it's been more blended. I guess it would be almost impossible to articulate, but in every way I can imagine, I know I am both male and female, at the same time. For a long time, there were two separate identities, with their own names, interests with some overlap, and even slight personality differences. But now, I'm more comfortable as my whole self. I'm not Intersex, but I'm definitely both genders. Two spirit sounds comparable based on everything I've learned, but I definitely wouldn't call myself that, because I'm not Native American, and based on what I'm been told, Two Spirit is a very specific kind of classification, only in the context of a native american culture.

Sorry if I'm not really giving anything helpful. I guess it's hard for me to explain. All I know is I definitely can't just call myself a woman, but I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable calling myself a man either. I'm both. Not neither or a third gender. Both.
 
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