Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)

[Enduin]

Too many people drop into threads, sound their dog whistle, and when questioned they ignore and slink off waiting for the next opportunity.

There should be a crack down on dropping a take with certain language (alt-right style buzzwords as Spirit mentions above) and not coming back to respond to posts that question it.

And half the time these posts don't even get dog pilled, they get a couple of users calling them out and asking for receipts and the user ghosts the thread.

Should be bannable, imo.

And Era is full of little microaggressions like this. As such I think moderations needs to ramp up heavily against any kind of post with a bigoted tone, and in the instances mentioned above force the user in question to either offer recipes or take the ban.

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Agreed. As is the issue with the internet in general people are just way too interested in dropping their opinion or shooting some minor aspect of a statement down and never actually reading or engaging with the real topic at hand. Like the discussion here about whether Era is progressive or not. It's literally besides the point as stated in the OP.

There's plenty of threads where quick comments or whatever don't matter, but when it comes to topics dealing with real world issues there needs to be more strict policing of drive by posts and hot takes.

 

[Kayla]

That lack of empathy also isn't just limited to race either. The James Gunn thread illustrated that, with people jumping down the throat of someone who suffered through child abuse because they found Gunn's jokes unacceptable. That's a perfectly valid view to hold especially if you're someone that went through the traumas that Gunn made fun of. And, let's be real here, even your average high-schooler knows that rape and pedophilia jokes are in horrific taste. While the set of extenuating circumstances make the firing less just, someone can find the jokes incredibly distasteful & side with Disney and not be an active Nazi.

And honestly, I'd say the lack of empathy is a problem beyond this forum. In general, people don't care enough about other people's views, ideas, and circumstances. Here, it's just more egregious since this is supposed to be a bastion of progress on the internet.

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You're talking about Me. Yes, that thread literally made me cry, because everyone dogpiled me when i tried to explain my reasons for not wanting to accept james gunn's apology. I was a tool for the alt right, someone being manipulated or people saying that my trauma isnt as important. I never once called for james gunn to be fired or called him a pedo, i simply stated that what he said was disgusting and it hurts people like me that have suffered from child sexual abuse. Some people did give me support which im grateful for though.

 

[stupei]

I see.

I had no clue what you originally meant due to the entire context of this thread. That's me assuming that you have read the same posts I've read, and that's a bad assumption.

To clarify, I guess, we know specifically who many of the bad actors were on NeoGAF (bisoptl, Amirox, Opiate, etc.)

We also know that the moderation policy was more direct yet lazy (the Wrassle-GAF example upthread around page 5) and led to a lot of confusion. And I'm still confused with how Evilore handled the PopGAF community toward the end of the site.

Basically, I thought that point was implicit. (And I also didn't mean to imply that I thought the moderation was "really, really bad.")

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Since I'm a former GAF mod myself -- which I have to assume you knew since you were so informed about policy, why it didn't work, and who enforced it -- it's probably incorrect to assume we had an identical experience of moderation policy and application.

But if I'm to understand it your answer to my question is that you have no specific explanation or elaboration on subjects actually relevant to the thread because you thought that was all implicit already and you just wanted to chime in to additionally air old grudges and shit on the old staff.

I'm not sure I see how that contributes to making Era a more progressive and welcoming space but maybe that was also implicit in some way I'm missing.

 

[artemis]

If you're male, you don't get to decide what's sexist, and if you're white you don't get to decide what's racist, this is applied similarly to LGBT+ people and other minority groups.

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[A Grizzly Bear]

YIKES... I guess I know why it's better that I rarely visit the gaming side..

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That wasn't on the gaming side.

 

[captive]

can we stop with the generalizations? This forum isn't filled with wannabe manchildren pretending to be progressive by talking about legalizing weed or whatever.

also who cares if we are "the most progressive place out there" probably not anyway, but definitely gaming related. If members of the community aren't comfortable posting here than we have failed as a community.

People talk about the moderation being too strong here, but my view is that it isn't nearly strong enough. Being transphobic or misogynist just gets you a week ban, and you often have to have a history of acting like that just to get that.

The goal of moderation shouldn't just be to enforce the rules, but also create a good environment where people can freely discuss progressive topics without people coming in to deny that it's worth considering or trying to derail it.

The key to making this place more progressive is, like it or not, kicking out the people who don't fit that goal.

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this, i'm going to disagree with though. We have to allow room for people to grow, if they can't and they continue to be trans-phobic, racist, misogynist, whatever, then ban them permanently.

I credit some of my growth and change having been raised in a house of republicans that latched on to fox news as a religion as having been a member on GAF since 2006, when i was 21.

 

[Cyanity]

I think we should ban all the mean people out there, and not ban allthe good people

I know this is a hot take, and the h*ters will eat me alive over it, but it's my opinion and so what if I hacve it

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This post reads like a Dril tweet, typos and all.

 

[Dream Machine]

Looks common to me?

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I mean, good zing on that user, but I don't find it common at all in spoken or written English. Whereas calling women and girls "females" (as a noun) is common.

Using male or female as an adjective is fine.

 

[Soph]

Search pulls up 15+ results in this thread alone for "male"

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It's fine if used as an adjective, it's not fine if used as a noun

 

[Renna Hazel]

Late to the thread... Persephone , thank you for bringing attention to these things.
Men, just shut up and listen. Okay?

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I see this said quite often here anytime someone asks why something is offensive and I honestly don't think it's very constructive. I think men (and everyone else) should be able to ask questions and/or debate over why something is or isn't considered offensive, and/or the context things are said or used. I don't think it's bad to have these conversations if everyone involved is being respectful.

 

[John Doe]

I am a moderate democrat and I have gotten a ban for my slightly right leaning but still left of center viewpoints.

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What view points are those exactly?

I'm surprised that anyone would be banned on here for a left of center viewpoint

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Looks common to me?

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"You're male".

Not "You're a male".

Pay attention and go read the thread about "females" front to back again if you don't get it.

 

[mutantmagnet]

Gaming forum > attracts people who play games > that happens to be majority men > also happens to be that people who play a lot of games tend to be socially isolated > there is a lack of empathy and understanding due to inexperience in dealing with women

It's a fundamental problem that will follow this comm no matter what name is on the forum. Luckily, it seems like the moderation here has no tolerance for such behavior.

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The gaming majority isn't men. Hasn't been that way for more than a decade.

We are the majority of enthusiasts on consoles who like to congregate on messageboards.

Though I think we wouldn't be a majority if many of us were not asshats or stalkers.

 

[uzipukki]

Search pulls up 15+ results in this thread alone for "male"

I dont want to take this off topic though, just pointing out why its not so open and shut, and how banning someone for coming in with a different take would be a disservice to the forum.

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Did you look at how the word is used (noun, adjective), since that plays a huge role...

 

[VeePs]

Men, just shut up and listen. Okay?

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Just an idea, but having dialogue and explaining it to people asking why this forum isn't considered progressive will probably do more good than telling people to shut up and listen.

 

[okayfrog]

If there is one thing that's clear, it's that different people have VERY different ideas about what the purpose of this place is.

Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.

I have an idea. I don't know if it's feasible, but would it make sense to make a subforum that is intended as a safe space that has heavier moderation and zero tolerance for anything questionable, and then a more generalized forum side that is more open to debate and different lines of thinking?

Because right now it seems like it's trying to be two incongruous things at once.

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I would be down for that, but that isn't gonna happen. Good post, nevertheless.

 

[Vire]

All they said was that ERA isn't a safe space. You're projecting the idea that they asked for something better, and ignoring any room for improvement even if it is a safe space. Your post is an unfortunately comical way to show that it isn't one if we can't even question that.

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ERA should be a safe space for them projecting their own thoughts and ideas, which is why the previous thread challenging concepts like "female" were allowed to exist and are even encouraged, however that does not prevent it from people having people who challenge ideas in a respectful manner.

I don't see the purpose of a forum if it is just a giant echo chamber.

 

[Alice]

That wasn't on the gaming side.

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Yikes... that's what I get for taking day-long breaks. I feel like I missed half of the topics lately. My bad. >_<

 

[Curler]

If there is one thing that's clear, it's that different people have VERY different ideas about what the purpose of this place is.

Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.

I have an idea. I don't know if it's feasible, but would it make sense to make a subforum that is intended as a safe space that has heavier moderation and zero tolerance for anything questionable, and then a more generalized forum side that is more open to debate and different lines of thinking?

Because right now it seems like it's trying to be two incongruous things at once.

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It sounds like an idea, but I wonder if it could work? Some people definately have very different opinions of things that are ok/not ok, many on a more personal reason. If anything, the open discussion would need more heavier moderation, so things do not get out of line.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Really? Where did you post it? I'm pretty sure I was never banned for disliking it.

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I don't remember for sure, I think it was a review thread but it was definitely a relevant thread(Box-office, OT, etc) and not just random.

I never even got harsh with it because it felt like a movie that'd be silly to get upset over after the initial reveal.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

I swear to god if this thread devolves into the female thread again I will punch a male in the throat

 

[L Thammy]

If there is one thing that's clear, it's that different people have VERY different ideas about what the purpose of this place is.

Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.

I have an idea. I don't know if it's feasible, but would it make sense to make a subforum that is intended as a safe space that has heavier moderation and zero tolerance for anything questionable, and then a more generalized forum side that is more open to debate and different lines of thinking?

Because right now it seems like it's trying to be two incongruous things at once.

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So, like, one forum you get banned for calling everyone SJWs and the other one you don't? What would the differences between the two subforums be?

 

[subpar spatula]

What view points are those exactly?

I'm surprised that anyone would be banned on here for a left of center viewpoint

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This is a faint. You see it a lot on other sites dedicated to tracking us. A user will get banned there and say, "i got banned even though i am a leftie". They don't say why, and when they show why, it's obviously not a left leaning stance or they don't actually understand the reason why they were banned. Anytime someone shields they ban reason with this type of talk I just roll my eyes and continue on. They want sympathy and people to see the left as authoritarian.

 

[mutantmagnet]

I would be down for that, but that isn't gonna happen. Good post, nevertheless.

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Why would it not happen?

This type of segregation worked on the survivorsucks forum and was necessary.

 

[Ernest]

I see this said quite often here anytime someone asks why something is offensive and I honestly don't think it's very constructive. I think men (and everyone else) should be able to ask questions and/or debate over why something is or isn't considered offensive, and/or the context things are said or used. I don't think it's bad to have these conversations if everyone involved is being respectful.

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Because sometimes, like this time, it's not some debate you get to have a differing opinion on.

 

[Deleted member 23158]

I'll probably get banned for calling a specific poster out, but whatever! Look at the posting history of someone like [Mod Edit: Name removed]

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I see what you mean (especially when it got to the BFV stuff) looking through some posts. While it's somewhat problematic, it's not like the discussion got stifled because of him and the general consensus is still against him. As such it's still fine imo.

 

[PhazonBlonde]

I mean, if the reply boils down to a dumb "notallmen," then sure, but would you elaborate on your "listen to women" point in your earlier post? When it comes to women's issues, do you think that there should be no discussion from men unless it is acknowledgement or agreement to the points or arguments made by women? I'm genuinely trying to understand what your ideal discussion would be and what kind of responses should be considered appropriate.

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There's nothing to elaborate on; it's that simple. Listen. Don't hijack a thread and make it all about you. Women have an entirely different life experience thanks to the prevelance of misogyny and sexual violence throughout the world. Try to empathize with that. Don't play Devil's Advocate just to show how smart you are. Realize that most women have suffered rape or sexual assault, or at least harassment for being a woman at some point. Let that color your thoughts and replies.

Also if a woman says she finds something offensive, don't argue with her. You don't get to decide what she finds offensive.

 

[It’s Time To Go]

I see this said quite often here anytime someone asks why something is offensive and I honestly don't think it's very constructive. I think men (and everyone else) should be able to ask questions and/or debate over why something is or isn't considered offensive, and/or the context things are said or used. I don't think it's bad to have these conversations if everyone involved is being respectful.

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Or you can listen to the people with the problem and read the OP where its clearly explained.

 

[Vire]

It sounds like an idea, but I wonder if it could work? Some people definately have very different opinions of things that are ok/not ok, many on a more personal reason. If anything, the open discussion would need more heavier moderation, so things do not get out of line.

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Sounds like a poor idea to me in all honestly, it will only allow extremes to exist in both scenarios. (Even likely encouraging people to get away with saying just a little bit more than before because they aren't in the "Safe Zone" . Just co-exist and don't be a jerk.

 

[pigeon]

Why would it not happen?

This type of segregation worked on the survivorsucks forum and was necessary.

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Why not do exactly what you're talking about except call the "more open to debate" forum "Reddit"

 

[Dosia]

Why is calling a woman "female" considered demeaning? Honest question.

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I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.

 

[Mugman]

Glad someone made a thread about this. I totally understand why a moderation team would do this, and believe me, I get how much work must go into moderating on the site, but: a centrist stance is kinda worthless in this day and age. Like, I can just go interact with brands on Twitter if I want inoffensive to everyone goofs. The reason why "the old place" was good is because the moderation team didn't just ban people based on "TOS violations". They worked really hard to create a certain vibe. It wasn't just soulless HR-esque statements and giving good users warnings or bans for calling people out on their actually toxic shit.

I'm at work so I didn't get a chance to read more than the first page, but for everyone laughing and saying "if this place isn't progressive enough then nowhere on the internet is progressive", that's exactly the point. The reason there was a mass exodus from "the old place" is because our community was so full of progressive people who saw something shitty happen and decided to act on it. Nothing has been done on ResetEra to cultivate a community as special as that, at least from what I've seen. That movement would not have happened just about anywhere else on the internet, and I surely don't think it would have happened here. That's the point.

 

[Cantaim]

Sites got a problem with toxic masculinity For sure. Also suffers from problems in that anytime a big issue pops up. you can always spot the bad faith poster trying to turn the conversation on its head and show why the original idea is actually wrong (see anythrrad about sexism and minoriteis in general). Though I am optimistic about the sites future. the mods are all nice people and although they have gone through some hiccups I haven't felt like they have stopped trying to keep the site Moving in a progressive direction.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I am a member on quite a few gaming forums, and the general consensus on them all is that ERA is a left leaning echo chamber.

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So the other hiveminds conclude Era is the hivemind

 

[VeePs]

The reason why "the old place" was good is because the moderation team didn't just ban people based on "TOS violations".

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Wait, you think the moderation on GAF was good? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Necromanti]

Why is calling a woman "female" considered demeaning? Honest question.

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They mean using it as a noun rather than an adjective, like you would do for an animal.

 

[American Eskimo]

Did you look at how the word is used (noun, adjective), since that plays a huge role...

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"You're male".

Not "You're a male".

Pay attention and go read the thread about "females" front to back again if you don't get it.

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English is my second language, but:

If you're male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.
If you're a male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.

Reads identical to me and appears to be a choice in style or convenience rather than an underlying message.

And thank you for referring me back to that thread. Some posters here would have liked that discussion immediately terminated and any non-agreement banned, which would mean I wouldn't have an opportunity to learn.

I swear to god if this thread devolves into the female thread again I will punch a male in the throat

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Yes I really don't want to derail from the purpose of this thread, I apologize.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.

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Trolololol. Jesus F. Christ.

 

[PhazonBlonde]

I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.

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So we're really doing this in this thread AGAIN? JFC way to prove OP's point. AGAIN I"L REPEAT:


Women on ERA: "Hey can you stop using x word it kinda offends most of us."
Most men: "lol no"
5% of men: "ok cool"
1 woman: "I am 1 woman and I thing x word is fine."
1 man: "I asked my woman friend and she's ok with it."
Most men: "See? It's just a few women getting pissy about x word because they're too sensitive."

 

[stupei]

So the other hiveminds conclude Era is the hivemind

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Have you considered that perhaps not tolerating transphobia and sexism is in fact intolerant and hateful?

 

[RDreamer]

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Something wrong with that? If you're a part of the oppressing group, no matter how good you might be, you shouldn't be the one deciding what oppression is. The victims should be. Sexism, racism, etc, has a dynamic of power vs powerless. You have power and they don't. There's no reason you should also have the power to decide whether they are being oppressed, too. You lack the perspective to truly know.

 

[TheModestGun]

So, like, one forum you get banned for calling everyone SJWs and the other one you don't? What would the differences between the two subforums be?

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No, this is clearly what I'm not asking for. There is a whole slew of ideas and opinions that are totally in between your statement's extremes.

 

[NoRéN]

This forum is filled with fake progressives who think smoking weed and not actively raping people makes them leftists.

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Goddamn.

Sorry, Persephone. This problem isn't going away unless the mods and administration stop running this place like reddit. This place isn't progressive or left leaning.

 

[Renna Hazel]

Because sometimes, like this time, it's not some debate you get to have a differing opinion on.

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Sometimes it isn't, but sometimes people may simply not understand or know about everything that happens on the site. This topic for example is referencing things that happen on the site in general.

Or you can listen to the people with the problem and read the OP where its clearly explained.

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Not every OP clearly explains their issue, or may reference something that is not present in the OP. I just don't think there is an issue with a two way conversation, especially since this is a message board. We should listen to each other, and in certain cases educate each other.

 

[It’s Time To Go]

So we're really doing this in this thread AGAIN? JFC way to prove OP's point. AGAIN I"L REPEAT:


Women on ERA: "Hey can you stop using x word it kinda offends most of us."
Most men: "lol no"
5% of men: "ok cool"
1 woman: "I am 1 woman and I thing x word is fine."
1 man: "I asked my woman friend and she's ok with it."
Most men: "See? It's just a few women getting pissy about x word because they're too sensitive."

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Is that the equivalent of 'I have a black friend' ?

 

[okayfrog]

Why would it not happen?

This type of segregation worked on the survivorsucks forum and was necessary.

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It wouldn't happen because this forum is a successor of NeoGAF, a heavily-moderated forum. This forum has gotten noticeably more heavily-moderated over the past few months and I only see it becoming more and more heavily-moderated as time goes by. Look at NeoGAF now, without the heavy moderation. Terms like "tard" and "tranny" are thrown around like they're nothing.

If ResetEra had a looser forum -- or changed this one to be looser and added an even more heavily-moderated forum, does that mean that every other post on the "loose" forum would be someone saying "tard" or "tranny?" No. But does it mean that it's more likely those people would be able to become comfortable here? Yes. I imagine the mods/admins don't want that.

Personally, I'm okay with that. I'm down for those people coming here and either getting banned for using slurs or actually being able to debate with people without using slurs and possibly having them change their minds or at least learn something new. But that's not gonna happen. The purpose of this forum isn't to foment change among undesirables. The purpose is most definitely for it to be a safe space.

 

[Curler]

Sounds like a poor idea to me in all honestly, it will only allow extremes to exist in both scenarios. (Even likely encouraging people to get away with saying just a little bit more than before because they aren't in the "Safe Zone" . Just co-exist and don't be a jerk.

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Sounds like right now there is a BIG difference to co-existance when some are saying it's "too safe" here, and some minorities feeling like they should leave.

 

[Cocaloch]

Your response is completely oxymoronic. If it is indeed a broad social factor it literally comes down to accepting collective moral blame.

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How is that an oxymoron? I say this on this site over and over again. Value judgement and analysis are not the same things.

What point is there in trying to sugarcoat it? If you have a problem with my approach to dealing with people who refuse to get it, that's perfectly fine. I don't care. If men feel offended by me aggressively judging us for our continued exertion of oppression, GOOD. We all deserve that, at the very least. I don't think any of us deserve respect or being treated with kids' gloves over misogynistic behavior. We're all grown fucking men who ought to have known better decades ago. No excuses at this point.

If you think a civil approach is better, good for you. Do that. I'll do my thing in the meantime because I know there are people out there who respond better to being verbally beaten over the head, believe it or not. Not everyone enjoys politeness in debates.

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You can do whatever you want. I happen to think such an approach is ultimatly self defeating and either a kneejerk reaction, similar to punative approaches to justice, or more interested in making oneself feel better than affecting change.

Next time you quote me btw, don't replace my words with a period. It's rude.

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Do you not see the irony here? This is hilarious. Also I don't think it's particularly rude. People do it to me all the time when I make large posts.

 

[Poppy]

Have you considered that perhaps not tolerating transphobia and sexism is in fact intolerant and hateful?

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oh no my whole worldview has been THROWN INTO CHAOS

 

[Menx64]

The big problem of Era, is that this is a mostly an American forum, and the US is a divided country. Half of your voters are ok with the two sides thing and dont care about any sort of progressive views.
Heck even a country like mine (Costa Rica) is divided by progressive topics. There is unfortunately no way to stop people for being asses, because now everybody thinks is right and have a "source" for any BS they want to push.