Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)

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Casual

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,547
Also if a woman says she finds something offensive, don't argue with her. You don't get to decide what she finds offensive.
You're right that you don't get to decide what someone finds offensive.

That doesn't mean you have to agree that their stance is reasonable.

(Not applying this to the specific situation, but that stance as a whole is flawed).
 

Soph

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
978
I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
Really.... Ugh.

I just asked my black friend if it was ok calling him a n.... he laughed. I've never met anyone else who complained about this. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,389
Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.
This is such a loaded juxtaposition, mostly to make your side seem like the adults... plenty of people who want a more progressive space love debating actual details instead of repeating 101 base arguments ad nauseum.

Conversely many who don't want a more progressive space have no interest in learning or listening snd just want minorities to shut the fuck up.
 

Enduin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,693
New York
I see this said quite often here anytime someone asks why something is offensive and I honestly don't think it's very constructive. I think men (and everyone else) should be able to ask questions and/or debate over why something is or isn't considered offensive, and/or the context things are said or used. I don't think it's bad to have these conversations if everyone involved is being respectful.
But they're not. That's kind of a big issue. Plus most of the time just listening and reading is all that's needed. If people actually listened and read what was being posted by people like the OP and took the time to think about what was said rather than responding with an objection or even question they'd most likely figure it out on their own.

Reading and listening goes a long way. 9/10 posts I wrote up on GAF in threads like these never got posted because really thinking about and trying to understand what I was responding to usually answered my questions or concerns and actually considering and critiquing my own statements cleared up their flaws or redundancies to the discussion. You can often learn a lot more by staying silent and taking to heart what others are saying than asking questions.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,731
I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
Well shit, you know one person. Cool story man.

We have people in this very thread who are ladies requesting that you not call them that. Do they not exist? I guess since you haven't "met" them they don't.

Why do you need to use this term? Is there something special about it to you? Does it hurt you to not use it? No one's going to think you're lesser if you accidentally use a term you legitimately didn't know offends a lot of people, but after you do know and have been asked not to and you still use it then that's just messed up and lacking in empathy.
 

Jasup

Member
Oct 25, 2017
772
Yurop
I've noticed that. But through my experience I've also come to expect this kind of phenomenon.

In my opinion the term "progressive" is somewhat fluid. You can easily narrow it down to few bullet points you agree with and therefore can call yourself as progressive. The problem is that the process is completely subjective. I worked for the social democratic party for years in my country, and I've met a lot of people who call themselves social democrats - but nevertheless I've heard some crazy shit over the years. For example there was an elderly man who's been in the party for decades and calls himself a social democrat and a progressive, but once defended Hitler, like the real Hitler who "had good ideas" and "was on the same side with us". He still considers himself aligned with the party, because the party supports the issues that are dear to him and he supports the party by definition. All the nay-sayers on other issues are just misinformed in his mind. (And before you ask, we would kick him out if we could. But, legal issues and such)

But the point is we all have an idea what being "progressive" is, and it doesn't align with anybody else's idea 100% ever. You do find people who are 80% and over aligned with your ideas, but that really is a minority. Of course, for most issues you can find majority support, but those supporters are not always the same.

This thread is not about easy issues, it's about issues which demand people to do some introspection. In political discourse you can come to the same policy conclusion through different paths and foundations. You can make an argument for single payer health care from an economic standpoint or human rights standpoint as an example. But when dealing with the foundations of your arguments themselves, the water gets muddy - these are deeply held personal beliefs people structure the world they perceive around. If you think women are different from men in fundamental ways, you construct part of your worldview around that, but you can still come to same conclusions about single womens rights policy issues as those who don't hold the same fundamental view. This leads to our ultimate problem - we are not really ready to accept we could be wrong on this level.


And yes, I don't really care for the toxic masculinity that has been on display many times here. There is no "both sides", it's one's own construction.
 

Deleted member 32374

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Nov 10, 2017
8,458
I would be down for that, but that isn't gonna happen. Good post, nevertheless.
I think this something that could supplement certain discords. Its a good idea and better than my idea of creating invitation only subforums/hangouts.

I'm down with that.

EDIT: Lets not do the females thread again, plz. Go read the thread as everything that can be said was said there.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
I think it's a mistake to complain about the discourse on this forum living up to your personal purity tests. "Progressive" is a nebulous term. I don't think you have to be progressive or liberal to be on this forum, and you SHOULDN'T have to be. Just, as long as someone isn't trolling with maliciously disruptive rhetoric, then it should be fine.
 

torre_avenue

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,067
Behind you.
If there is one thing that’s clear, it’s that different people have VERY different ideas about what the purpose of this place is.

Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.

I have an idea. I don’t know if it’s feasible, but would it make sense to make a subforum that is intended as a safe space that has heavier moderation and zero tolerance for anything questionable, and then a more generalized forum side that is more open to debate and different lines of thinking?

Because right now it seems like it’s trying to be two incongruous things at once.
That's disingenuous.

You're framing meaningless debate where minorities get their opinions shut-down, shredded, or stamped upon by the majority as "debate and different lines of thinking."

The debate and different lines of thinking is coming from those people you claim need a safe space. They don't want a place where they won't be challenged or questioned, they want a place where they won't get shouted down just because one dude has a girlfriend or a black friend or a gay friend with a contradictory opnion that immediately gets championed as the reason the OP is a fool. I don't think anyone who agrees with the OP wants this "safe forum". If anything, all they want is a place where respectful discussion can happen without people handwaving away the minority's opinion because "lol that sounds stupid." Where there can be a nuanced discussion that doesn't devolve into one side being obstinate and talking down on other peoples' opinions. Hell, I'd like a place where people could maturely discuss the issues with fanservice in Japanese games that doesn't descend into "WHY YOU TAKING AWAY MY UNDERAGE TIDDIES YOU CENSORING FASCIST."
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,671
I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
My GF says the same thing but if I explain the reasoning she says that's fair. Did you explain it fully?

Also, regardless, there are woman who do care. Why do you care so much that you got to ask another one and take them as the only data size? You even say you haven't met anyone who complains about being called a female.

Your post is either on point parody wise or the perfect example of downplaying issues women bring up.
 

vexx987

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
155
Modesto, CA
User Banned (Permanent): Trolling and baiting; history of infractions. Junior account.
People arent perfect, even the most progressive person is going to have a flaw that you people will jump at. Look at James Gunn. The outrage culture in this forum is ridiculous.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Oct 25, 2017
6,800
There's nothing to elaborate on; it's that simple. Listen. Don't hijack a thread and make it all about you. Women have an entirely different life experience thanks to the prevelance of misogyny and sexual violence throughout the world. Try to empathize with that. Don't play Devil's Advocate just to show how smart you are. Realize that most women have suffered rape or sexual assault, or at least harassment for being a woman at some point. Let that color your thoughts and replies.
I agree with all of this, but I feel like our definitions of what constitutes "hijacking" or "playing Devil's Advocate" may differ on a case by case basis. Hard to really debate it further without concrete examples, I suppose.

Also if a woman says she finds something offensive, don't argue with her. You don't get to decide what she finds offensive.
Arguing with what someone personally finds offensive and telling them they should not be offended by whatever it is would be rude as all hell. I agree with that. But what if that person is saying in blanket terms that the thing is offensive to everyone in whatever group the person identifies with? I think that becomes a very different conversation depending on the actual specifics.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Wait, you think the moderation on GAF was good? Am I reading this correctly?
The moderation on GAF was generally quite good on OT side. The people who I thought clearly needed to get banned got banned. People who I agreed with but thought behaved badly got banned. I got banned a few times and every time*, on consideration, I agreed that I had behaved badly and counterproductively to the goals of the forum.

Evilore's personal moderation was pretty bad since it was more in the vein of "this guy called me a dick so I will perma him," and gaming side always seemed much more lawless to me, but otherwise I think the moderation was better than pretty much any other forum.

Lots of people disagreed with that, but frankly, it was usually because they got banned.


* One time I was pretty sure the other guy should've gotten banned also and then he did
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,675
English is my second language, but:

If you're male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.
If you're a male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.

Reads identical to me and appears to be a choice in style or convenience rather than an underlying message.

And thank you for referring me back to that thread. Some posters here would have liked that discussion immediately terminated and any non-agreement banned, which would mean I wouldn't have an opportunity to learn.



Yes I really don't want to derail from the purpose of this thread, I apologize.
It's my fourth language ffs. Never an excuse to dismiss others regardless, so stop doing it. You're not expected to know everything but you also don't get to say others' concerns are invalid when you clearly haven't taken the time to listen and understand. That's all.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,695
You're right that you don't get to decide what someone finds offensive.

That doesn't mean you have to agree that their stance is reasonable.

(Not applying this to the specific situation, but that stance as a whole is flawed).
It's really not that incredibly difficult to accommodate.

I don't understand why we should be so forgiving of people who are completely unwilling to accommodate when specifically asked to do so.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,521
AFAIK the site has never advertised itself as forum devoted to progressive political causes. It is a discussion forum for mainstream videogames (or more accurately for what was mainstream gaming ten to twenty years ago, considering the lack of interest in mobile and multiplayer games). It just ends up seeming relatively progressive by default for not tolerating the kind of lazy bigotry you see on most gaming boards.

Being a discussion forum for a large "mainstream" audience and being a safe space (for strict definitions of the term) for any given group are both worthwhile goals that eventually come into conflict. I don't envy the moderation team trying to toe that line.

Frankly, many of the complaints here seem to boil down to "people disagree with me about an issue I feel strongly about and they don't get banned". The "females" thread had its share of whiny not-all-menning, but it also had plenty of dumb, lazy generalizations and drive-by insults from people supporting the OP's assertion. Bad arguments deserve pushback, even when they are in support of positions you largely agree with.
 

-COOLIO-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,373
If there is one thing that’s clear, it’s that different people have VERY different ideas about what the purpose of this place is.

Some seem to be looking for a safe space where they can freely discuss their issues without being challenged and questioned, and others on here are looking for interesting debate and being challenged and pushed on ideas.

I have an idea. I don’t know if it’s feasible, but would it make sense to make a subforum that is intended as a safe space that has heavier moderation and zero tolerance for anything questionable, and then a more generalized forum side that is more open to debate and different lines of thinking?

Because right now it seems like it’s trying to be two incongruous things at once.
Sure, I'd vote for this.
 

Vire

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,547
You're right that you don't get to decide what someone finds offensive.

That doesn't mean you have to agree that their stance is reasonable.

(Not applying this to the specific situation, but that stance as a whole is flawed).
I'm just curious, did the OP feel like the reason they are disappointed in the community is because they felt attacked when they created the thread, or is it because a large number of users disagreed with their stance?

If it's the former, then that's not acceptable, if it's the latter then tough luck.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,940
This entire forum is filled with subcommunities that hold themselves as better than gaming/offtopic as a whole and act like they aren't on the same forum. It's been carried over from NeoGAF, and it's weird as hell.

As a public forum ResetEra can never be a safe space, and I have no idea what a "progressive" forum actually means aside from banning anyone you disagree with.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,854
English is my second language, but:

If you're male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.
If you're a male, you don't get to decide what's sexist.

Reads identical to me and appears to be a choice in style or convenience rather than an underlying message.

And thank you for referring me back to that thread. Some posters here would have liked that discussion immediately terminated and any non-agreement banned, which would mean I wouldn't have an opportunity to learn.



Yes I really don't want to derail from the purpose of this thread, I apologize.

You aren't wrong on the literal definition but what you are missing is how words are commonly used within a culture.

It is weird to refer to us as males. We refer to each other as guys or men.

For women they like to be referred to as women or girls.

The people who commonly use the term female have a history of being sexist or misogynists which is why it now carries extra baggage for some women these days.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,436
I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
Maybe you don't understand the point?

Referring to someone as a Woman denotes the fact they identify as such, are an adult person, and gives them credit as a human being.

Referring to someone as a female doesn't tell us anything about their humanity. A female what? A female dog?

The term "females" used as a noun to describe "women" is dehumanising and is very often intended to be so. It's the same thing as "bitches" in this context.

Your wife may not find it offensive, but if you have any empathy at all you can understand why many do.
 

artemis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,635
Something wrong with that? If you're a part of the oppressing group, no matter how good you might be, you shouldn't be the one deciding what oppression is. The victims should be. Sexism, racism, etc, has a dynamic of power vs powerless. You have power and they don't. There's no reason you should also have the power to decide whether they are being oppressed, too. You lack the perspective to truly know.
The victims can be men, can be white, etc. For me that post goes against of what he is defending, by excluding them like that. For me it's more "us vs them".
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,139
I just asked my wife and she laughed. I have never met a lady complain about being called a female. Some people get offended and some people don't give a rats ass.
Even if you have personally never met a woman who minded it, it is still better to not use it at all.

I lose respect for men who call me a female. Unless they are genuinely ignorant and change their ways, I tune them out for being an ass.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,211
So we're really doing this in this thread AGAIN? JFC way to prove OP's point. AGAIN I"L REPEAT:


Women on ERA: "Hey can you stop using x word it kinda offends most of us."
Most men: "lol no"
5% of men: "ok cool"
1 woman: "I am 1 woman and I thing x word is fine."
1 man: "I asked my woman friend and she's ok with it."
Most men: "See? It's just a few women getting pissy about x word because they're too sensitive."
I chuckled at this because its too fucking true.

1 person says " hey this thing offends me a little"

Best response " huh i never knew that maybe i will reflect a little and try to better about that "
Not great response " I disagree"
Worse response " fuck you"
Worst response "but i need to say this you are infringing on my rights, censorship you femmenzai bitch, Jordan Peterson once said asdkljdfasdlksadjsalj"
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,800
It's not that men are not "allowed" to have an opinion. The problem is that instead of listening and thinking that maybe they don't know everything, they come into threads about "women's issues" assuming a position of authority.

Men should open their minds to the possibility they might not have all the facts/experiences to really know what the fuck they are talking about.

As a man, maybe ask yourself why you think you need to "say your piece" about women's issues in the first place.

If you have an actual well reasoned, factually based argument/talking point by all means post away.

But drive-by opinions? What value is added to the discussion by those, other than you hearing yourself talk?

Men don't realize women are talked down to all day, every single day of their lives. Daily life as a woman is literally an endless barrage of men thinking that they have the position of authority by default and that whatever they are currently thinking at the moment deserves to be heard and respected over whatever you are, as a woman.
This all makes sense. Drive-by "I disagree" or "well, actually" posts that don't actually present an argument as to why only detract from whatever discussion might have been possible.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
You're just saying "im wrong" "you dont" etc etc
how about explaining HOW?
Your first response to my question was literally just the word "no."

Again, I'd suggest learning what selection bias is. I truly and honestly believe that no one that understands what it means could possibly think that whatever groups that they happen frequent taken as a sample would not have selection bias.

Here's a helpful link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,854
It wouldn't happen because this forum is a successor of NeoGAF, a heavily-moderated forum. This forum has gotten noticeably more heavily-moderated over the past few months and I only see it becoming more and more heavily-moderated as time goes by. Look at NeoGAF now, without the heavy moderation. Terms like "tard" and "tranny" are thrown around like they're nothing.

If ResetEra had a looser forum -- or changed this one to be looser and added an even more heavily-moderated forum, does that mean that every other post on the "loose" forum would be someone saying "tard" or "tranny?" No. But does it mean that it's more likely those people would be able to become comfortable here? Yes. I imagine the mods/admins don't want that.

Personally, I'm okay with that. I'm down for those people coming here and either getting banned for using slurs or actually being able to debate with people without using slurs and possibly having them change their minds or at least learn something new. But that's not gonna happen. The purpose of this forum isn't to foment change among undesirables. The purpose is most definitely for it to be a safe space.
I didn't take the suggestion to mean that type of looseness.

I took it to mean the current methods would stay in effect on the loose forum and the serious discussion thread would have zero tolerance.

You're not wrong about what you're saying in general but I don't think the suggestion was to lower the existing standards but instead to increase it in a separate area.
 

DeeDogg

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
4,509
Florida
You're first response to my question was literally just the word "no."

Again, I'd suggest learning what selection bias is. I truly and honestly believe that no one that understands what it means could possibly think that whatever groups that they happen frequent taken as a sample would not have selection bias.

Here's a helpful link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
You asked a question. I said no. AN explanation wasnt really needed there...
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,001
But they're not. That's kind of a big issue. Plus most of the time just listening and reading is all that's needed. If people actually listened and read what was being posted by people like the OP and took the time to think about what was said rather than responding with an objection or even question they'd most likely figure it out on their own.

Reading and listening goes a long way. 9/10 posts I wrote up on GAF in threads like these never got posted because really thinking about and trying to understand what I was responding to usually answered my questions or concerns and actually considering and critiquing my own statements cleared up their flaws or redundancies to the discussion. You can often learn a lot more by staying silent and taking to heart what others are saying than asking questions.
Well of course if people aren't being respectful they should be dealt with accordingly.

For the record, I agree with the OP here, but this is something I've been trained to notice my entire life. Men are trained that certain behavior is normal or acceptable. My boyfriend or male friends may not always understand why something is offensive to me and my short explanation doesn't immediately override what they've been taught their entire lives. From my experience I just think it's more effective to actually address any issues one has with your explanation. Sometimes people object to things not on the grounds of trying to win some sort of debate, but simply because they just don't understand why it's wrong or offensive.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who are just blatant racist or sexist idiots. I'm talking about people who may be ignorant but have no real ill intentions with their offensive behavior.
 
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