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Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,824
Just an idea I think might help settle where we are as a community (can't start a proper new thread as I'm covering a conference).

Era (owners/ admins) basically have a choice alongside their community imo.
Era was founded on the basis of a place that would frown/ refuse shityness: Racism, Xenophobia, Misoginy, Homophobia, etc.
There is one step further, which would be to be actively embracing progressive causes.

Would this call for a site wide poll? Or would even asking the community be asking if we want some (feeling more conservative on some issues) to be excluded, if only in principle?
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
What view points are those exactly?

I'm surprised that anyone would be banned on here for a left of center viewpoint

Israel-Palestine.

You asked a question. I said no. AN explanation wasnt really needed there...

Why not? I'm not sure why my comment needs more explanation than yours. Is it because I disagree with you? Again, I can't imagine anyone who knows what that word means to agree with what you said.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Yeah I noticed this in that females thread. I thought everyone knew calling women females was weird but I was surprised to see how many jumped out to defend that. The men empathy thread too. I didn't know it was that bad until recently
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
Yeah GAF style moderation is not the answer. That was Wild West and they acted on their own agency and there was absolutely zero consistency. I had a lengthy ban for 'Your meta commentary isn't welcome here' - when I posted something like 'this is a typical GAF response', I can't remember the thread but it wasn't anything controversial in the slightest.

Posts like this one, and even the OP would be met with bans.

And like others have said, giving people chances is the right way. Permenantly banning people straight up immediately antagonises the person and makes them keep and double down on their problematic views.

The site is largely representative of a place like California, it is largely liberal, diverse and progressive but has some conservative representation and the odd Alt-Right type person appearing.

The only way to have a 'utopian progressive' forum is zero-tolerance - and that is problematic in itself as to where do you draw the line on who is welcome and who is not, and then that's segregating themselves from everyone else and not letting the message spread or attitudes change.

The forum, and society at large, will never have that utopian progressive attitude in totality so the best people can do is just continue to try and educate, give warnings and bans where appropriate and to be welcoming to increase diversity.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
reason why "the old place" was good is because the moderation team didn't just ban people based on "TOS violations". They worked really hard to create a certain vibe.
I will never understand the love for a moderation staff that didn't actually have to abide by the Terms of Service, and just made up the rules as they went along. I suppose it was easier to like when you agreed with their politics, but now that it's so easy to see the level of abuse and corruption that such lazy ad-hoc management spawned, it's baffling.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
After going over the thread mentioned, yeah, I see where you are coming from, Persephone . Between the thread on over-sexualized imagery in games , the "females" thing, and that COD gamer breaking up with his GF thread, Era has certainly seen better days. I do agree that giving just a few weeks ban for open misogyny seems really unproductive, should be months, with a perma for repeat offenders.
The other problems are likely intrinsic, though, as Era, like GAF before it, is predominantly white, male, and US centric. It's certainly more to the left than most gaming-centred forums, but as you have shown, it has clearly huge blindspots when it comes to topics relevant to minorities. Not sure this can be fixed.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,332
Well shit, you know one person. Cool story man.

We have people in this very thread who are ladies requesting that you not call them that. Do they not exist? I guess since you haven't "met" them they don't.

Why do you need to use this term? Is there something special about it to you? Does it hurt you to not use it? No one's going to think you're lesser if you accidentally use a term you legitimately didn't know offends a lot of people, but after you do know and have been asked not to and you still use it then that's just messed up and lacking in empathy.
How about not calling the people female who request not be called female. Not wipe the word from existence?

Undoubtedly it can and is used in a derogatory way, it often isn't as well, so too can woman or girl. The use of the word isn't problematic for many.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I wonder how we can go about convincing more women to join the site - I know it may be a bit difficult as some women feel a bit uneasy here but I really think that having more women on this site would really help with having a more even and understanding community.
 

LosDaddie

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,622
Longwood, FL
Era is a gaming-centric forum first and foremost. The Gaming side is what drives the needed-clicks to keep this forum alive.

From my experience, Gaming discussion is also dominated by males. So I can definitely see how women would see this place as a bit unwelcoming. However, I would disagree that Era is hostile towards women, and even minorities like myself.


If this place isn't progressive, do progressive places even exist?

Era is probably the only place that wouldn't refer to Era as progressive.


I think ERA mods do a great job shutting people down. NeoGAF had a huge problem with mods trolling users and actively participating in thread derails, which perpetuated a lot of the toxic behaviour. Here? Two day ban, short explanation, and that's that.

GAF mods did an alright job at best. They played favorites with people they liked (certain users & communities basically had mod-immunity), and targeted users they disliked. Their mod team had leakers if you knew the right people.

I think the moderation on Era is (at least partially) a direct response to that foolishness, and is a lot more fair.
 

Fishious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Since I'm several pages deep and this thread is growing faster than I can read it, I'll just go ahead and drop my opinion.

I agree with the OP, we've definitely got a problem with regards to how we handle discourse on issues affecting women. When the "please don't call women females" thread first popped up I read it, silently nodded to myself, and went about my business. It shocked me a bit to find that, maybe an hour later, it had blown up so much and that there was so much push back against what seemed fairly obvious to me and is ultimately a very simple request. And then the thread just kept growing and growing. I already figure any thread regarding feminism, the treatment of women, etc is going to blow up (and not in a good way), but that one blind sided me because it was asking for such a small change.

In the several pages I've read through I've already seen many defenses along the lines of "If Era isn't progressive, I don't know what is" which entirely misses the point. Era may be progressive relative to other gaming sites, but gaming sites are hardly known for their progressiveness and many host some of the most vile, nazi-esque rhetoric so that's an incredibly low bar. Merely being better than the very worst isn't enough. Era needs to be a welcoming place where people can discuss politics, lifestyles, hobbies, etc without feeling like they are being othered. The best way to achieve this would be a shift in how the community itself treats these topics, but given the way this thread is going I doubt many will be swayed. As individuals we need to be more empathetic. We need to put aside our own experiences occasionally and actually believe someone else's stated experience rather than making the knee-jerk, "I've never had this happen to me so it must not be real."

And to the people worried about creating an echo chamber. Era already moderates certain things. Blatant racism and sexism are not allowed. That implicitly means certain topics such as, to use an extreme example, "Does race/ethnicity X need to be cleansed from the Earth?" are not worthy of discussion. So for those asking "what would we discuss" in response to the OP, there's a lot of things you already can't discuss because they aren't worthy of discussion. Somehow people still find lots of things to talk about. So to reference the "please don't call women females" thread again, accepting that women don't like to be called females and giving them that basic humanity isn't going to suddenly stifle conversation.

The moderation team here does a great job and generally cleans up a lot of the nastiness that happens, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens. Or that once a problematic poster is banned there's usually someone lined up right behind them ready to be a jerk ass. Or that even posters who call themselves progressive or leftists frequently talk down to women about women's issues and their experiences. It creates an unwelcoming environment where every time a woman shares their personal experiences they're made to feel like they don't belong. And it wears on people. If it happens often enough they'll either just stop trying to broach those topics or leave the site entirely. If Era wants to be progressive, it needs a variety of different voices. If people from various backgrounds and walks of life don't feel like they'll be taken seriously here then they'll just leave. So it behooves us to at least try to listen to one another. And while I'm talking about women almost exclusively here, this is a thread about women's issues after all, much of what I've said can easily apply to other minority groups as well.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
I would like to hear from the women admins and moderators what sort of direction they envision for this site.

I appreciate that the founding of RE also brought with a highly diverse admin and moderation group. If we're the crewing swinging the oars, then we need the captain or the person in the crow's nest telling us the best path to take.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
You're talking about Me. Yes, that thread literally made me cry, because everyone dogpiled me when i tried to explain my reasons for not wanting to accept james gunn's apology. I was a tool for the alt right, someone being manipulated or people saying that my trauma isnt as important. I never once called for james gunn to be fired or called him a pedo, i simply stated that what he said was disgusting and it hurts people like me that have suffered from child sexual abuse. Some people did give me support which im grateful for though.

I was thinking about PMing you, but since it's openly discussed here and I was part of the people arguing with and against you (though I don't think I ever dismissed your trauma) - I just wanted to extend my hand and tell you that I'm sorry. I may have said some needlessly harsh things based on things I felt were misconstrued, misrepresented and unfair. I know that both of us were just passionately arguing about something from two sides of the same coin with wildly different perspectives on the matter.

I'm sincerely sorry for what happened there, I can only speak for myself, but I'm going to try to not get as heated and hot headed about issues I'm passionate about in the future. I hope we can get along better.

If I did something to genuinely hurt you, you're always welcome to PM me and have a talk to me about it. I'll do my best to do better in the future.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
The victims can be men, can be white, etc. For me that post goes against of what he is defending, by excluding them like that. For me it's more "us vs them".

Black people cannot be "racist" in the same way a white person can. Women cannot be "sexist" in the way a man can. Victims can exist in specific instances, but societally the power lies with white men. Racism and sexism have a component of power in their very definition.

Here's a quote from Sobantu Mzwakali to illustrate:

A man cannot hate the whip with which he is being flogged but then be expected to love the person doing the flogging. When such a black man, lying helpless bleeding on the ground expresses hate for the white person wielding the whip, it is only reasonable.

Backlash from the oppressed group is not the same as the oppression itself.
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
I agree with all of this, but I feel like our definitions of what constitutes "hijacking" or "playing Devil's Advocate" may differ on a case by case basis. Hard to really debate it further without concrete examples, I suppose.



Arguing with what someone personally finds offensive and telling them they should not be offended by whatever it is would be rude as all hell. I agree with that. But what if that person is saying in blanket terms that the thing is offensive to everyone in whatever group the person identifies with? I think that becomes a very different conversation depending on the actual specifics.

Not everything needs debate. For some things it's simple enough to say 'ok' or ask some questions and move on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
You can do whatever you want. I happen to think such an approach is ultimatly self defeating and either a kneejerk reaction, similar to punative approaches to justice, or more interested in making oneself feel better than affecting change.



Do you not see the irony here? This is hilarious. Also I don't think it's particularly rude. People do it to me all the time when I make large posts.

Make me feel better? I fucking wish. It's fucking painful at this point. Always has been, in fact.

On the second point: thatsthejoke.jpg
Come on, now. It was meant to be hilarious so I'm glad to be of service. There's no need to shorten quoted posts on this forum, they are automatically condensed based on length.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,068
I think the issue with determining the amount of progressivism on a site like this is that "progressive" is relative to what one's expectations are.

Some guys on here continuing to call women "females" is still less egregious than some guys referring to women as "bitches" on other forms with impunity. I'm not saying that to suggest that anyone deserves a gold star for not calling women by that term, but compared to that or other denigrating words, the whole "female" thing is lost on some people.

Some people call out others for being fake progressives for even posting threads like the one about the reformed white supremacist who credited his change to people talking to him and changing his beliefs about people. For some people, encouraging similar tactics renders you a fake liberal.

Era absolutely can and should be better. But everyone's interpretation of this site's attitude and tenets will differ depending on how progressive the person is. For a conservative or moderate, this site is super liberal. For someone who is very liberal, this site is barely moderate.

I'm glad that threads like these and the Problem with Sexualized Women thread exist though because, even as someone who considers themselves liberal, it allows me to reflect on blind spots of mine. This and NeoGaf (back in the old days) definitely shaped me into an even more progressive individual, even if it irks me to see some people quick to decry those who differ from them in beliefs as not truly liberal (and I'm not referring to this thread when I say that).

I haven't noticed a lot of misogyny in the Off Topic forum that went unmoderated, but as a guy I'm probably less aware of stuff like that. So, again, threads like these are helpful.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,488
New York
Well of course if people aren't being respectful they should be dealt with accordingly.

For the record, I agree with the OP here, but this is something I've been trained to notice my entire life. Men are trained that certain behavior is normal or acceptable. My boyfriend or male friends may not always understand why something is offensive to me and my short explanation doesn't immediately override what they've been taught their entire lives. From my experience I just think it's more effective to actually address any issues one has with your explanation. Sometimes people object to things not on the grounds of trying to win some sort of debate, but simply because they just don't understand why it's wrong or offensive.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who are just blatant racist or sexist idiots. I'm talking about people who may be ignorant but have no real ill intentions with their offensive behavior.
That's fine and all but another issue at play is this is the internet and forum with thousands of posters. In any given thread your question or statement or whatever is likely going to get posted by someone else. You see this all the times in threads, even this very one, where the same question or statement gets posted again and again and again because people can't be bothered to even read a fraction of the pages.

And that volume of the same questions or remarks has an effect on the people who are actually affected by this stuff. It's very disheartening to see the same ignorant or even antagonistic stuff posted ad neaseum, regardless of intention. And people like the OP cannot be expected to respond to the same questions or refute the same ignorant remarks page after page. I literally don't know how excelsiorlef is able to respond so quickly and for so long to so many of the same dumb posts over and over again, shit has to be so draining both mentally and physically.

So again not responding and just reading will often net you the answers you are looking. And if not by all means ask a question if you really don't understand or something you think is important hasn't been addressed or brought up, but don't make that your go to course of action.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
People have more empathy for people like themselves...how is this shocking?

Actually, this isn't entirely true and is why representation matters.

Minorities are fully able to empathize with the majority because we have seen their stories presented over and over and because most positions of power are still held by members of the majority we will have to interact with in order to life fulfilling and successful lives. Want to see or enjoy a movie, TV show, or book? You have to learn to accept a white straight male perspective and to empathize with it or you will feel nothing for almost all entertainment media. Want to get hired or get a loan? Fairly good odds, even as a woman, that you might have to know how to socialize and interact with men for that to happen at some point! Not necessarily true for men with women or white people with people of color.

It's fully possible to learn how to empathize with people who are not like you. Queer people, women, and people of color do it all our lives.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
How about not calling the people female who request not be called female. Not wipe the word from existence?

Undoubtedly it can and is used in a derogatory way, it often isn't as well, so too can woman or girl. The use of the word isn't problematic for many.

No one said to wipe it from existence. People are saying to use it correctly. It's an scientific adjective referring to the sex of a species. You can use it that way.

If a significant portion of the population finds it offensive plus it's not technically even correct to say in that way, then what's the benefit of saying it? Is there a significant portion offended by the word woman? No? Then why not use the word that's guaranteed not to offend anyone at all?

That's my issue. If even 5% are offended by it, why fucking use it when you have a perfectly good word that 0% are offended by?
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,503
Massachusetts
There's nothing to elaborate on; it's that simple. Listen. Don't hijack a thread and make it all about you. Women have an entirely different life experience thanks to the prevelance of misogyny and sexual violence throughout the world. Try to empathize with that. Don't play Devil's Advocate just to show how smart you are. Realize that most women have suffered rape or sexual assault, or at least harassment for being a woman at some point. Let that color your thoughts and replies.

Also if a woman says she finds something offensive, don't argue with her. You don't get to decide what she finds offensive.
Quoting because this needs to be on every page
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
This is such a loaded juxtaposition, mostly to make your side seem like the adults... plenty of people who want a more progressive space love debating actual details instead of repeating 101 base arguments ad nauseum.

Conversely many who don't want a more progressive space have no interest in learning or listening snd just want minorities to shut the fuck up.
My side? What's my side? I'm against racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia and the like. But it's hard to know where the line exactly is on these topics, and sometimes it appears that almost literally no one has the same ideas about what those things are and what qualifies.

I want a progressive space as well, you don't need to straw man me. There is a reason I said SOME want different things. I never even put a label on it as progressive or anti progressive.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
I was thinking about PMing you, but since it's openly discussed here and I was part of the people arguing with and against you (though I don't think I ever dismissed your trauma) - I just wanted to extend my hand and tell you that I'm sorry. I may have said some needlessly harsh things based on things I felt were misconstrued, misrepresented and unfair. I know that both of us were just passionately arguing about something from two sides of the same coin with wildly different perspectives on the matter.

I'm sincerely sorry for what happened there, I can only speak for myself, but I'm going to try to not get as heated and hot headed about issues I'm passionate about in the future. I hope we can get along better.

If I did something to genuinely hurt you, you're always welcome to PM me and have a talk to me about it. I'll do my best to do better in the future.

Thank you that means a lot i appreciate it. Yeah i got kind of heated as well, and kind of went overboard with mocking people for liking marvel so much. I too am a fan of marvel and guardians of the galaxy, which is a big reason why i was pretty hurt by the whole thing.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I would like to hear from the women admins and moderators what sort of direction they envision for this site.

I appreciate that the founding of RE also brought with a highly diverse admin and moderation group. If we're the crewing swinging the oars, then we need the captain or the person in the crow's nest telling us the best path to take.
I agree. I think admins and mods should issue a statement about this issue as it's been plaguing the forum, in both gaming and off topic.

I think minimum one week bans would help instead of hours or a few days too. Double offense should be perms.
 

Hokahey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,288
Yeah GAF style moderation is not the answer. That was Wild West and they acted on their own agency and there was absolutely zero consistency. I had a lengthy ban for 'Your meta commentary isn't welcome here' - when I posted something like 'this is a typical GAF response', I can't remember the thread but it wasn't anything controversial in the slightest.

Posts like this one, and even the OP would be met with bans.

And like others have said, giving people chances is the right way. Permenantly banning people straight up immediately antagonises the person and makes them keep and double down on their problematic views.

The site is largely representative of a place like California, it is largely liberal, diverse and progressive but has some conservative representation and the odd Alt-Right type person appearing.

The only way to have a 'utopian progressive' forum is zero-tolerance - and that is problematic in itself as to where do you draw the line on who is welcome and who is not, and then that's segregating themselves from everyone else and not letting the message spread or attitudes change.

The forum, and society at large, will never have that utopian progressive attitude in totality so the best people can do is just continue to try and educate, give warnings and bans where appropriate and to be welcoming to increase diversity.

What a perfect response. Well done.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Dissenting opinion is not always a bad thing in a public place. The expectation that everyone thinking exactly the same as you is completely ridiculous. It is a forum after all... that being said there's I don't think there is room for hateful, racist, sexist, homophobic speech on this site. And for the most part I feel people are FAIRLY in line. Of course, you will always have a bad apple or two, but that is impossible to avoid in a place as vast as the internet. When you compare to reddit, or even current GAF - this website is very well run.

There is a lot of shite on Era, but it's part of having a public forum. As I said getting better vetting normally means moving to invite only and/or something like discord.

I'll be under the impression the owners of Era want to make money or at least break even, so you need a bit of traffic to do that in today's poor ad generated revenue market. Any time you expand and open up to more people you'll get more issues with fighting, arguing and moderating.

Restera has to pay bills directly out of the owner's pockets, Discord servers do not need to be paid for by traditional means.

So you could ban your public forum into the size of a discord server, say like, 100~150 people max, but then is that what suits a public forum? You could make it invite only but that is a bit of an admin nightmare to parse all the invites/read applications. You could make people pay to signup, but yeah, good luck with that with all the free options out there.
 
Jan 18, 2018
2,625
You aren't wrong on the literal definition but what you are missing is how words are commonly used within a culture.

It is weird to refer to us as males. We refer to each other as guys or men.

For women they like to be referred to as women or girls.

The people who commonly use the term female have a history of being sexist or misogynists which is why it now carries extra baggage for some women these days.

I agree that it sounds weird.

I am just pointing out that if suddenly the ban level was turned to max, as many in this thread are calling for, someone who uses the word without knowing the context may be permanently banned.

Why is every person expected to know what the sexist and misogynist communities are up to?

Every day, new people sign up here, coming from a huge range of backgrounds.

One of them might be an alt-right troll and use the word as an attempt to dehumanize.

Another might be a woman from Argentina who doesn't fully understand the nuances of English.

It doesn't make sense to perm them both without understanding the context of the poster. And that's why mods here can't go from 0 to 100 after one post.

So yes, a mod has to go warning - 1 day ban - 3 day ban etc because it is impossible to understand what kind of person a poster is without an established history.

UNLESS they're obviously jumping in with terminology that is widely understood to be a problem (ie, "retard" or "tranny")
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Also, I don't know if this site can really become a specifically-progressive site, because I don't even know what that means exactly. Most people here are centrists or centre-left, they are not on the far left, so what I think of progressive and what others think of progressive are very different, as I view progress as completely dismantling the current economic and political system and replacing it with a better system in order to progress, while many here actually just want to salvage the current system.

That being said, there are obviously some things that should be used as a guideline: no racism, no sexism, no homophobia, no transphobia, no religious bigotry, no harassment, etc. That is at least something that is much easier to come to an agreement on.
 

vexx987

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
155
Modesto, CA
Wow. Good luck with this site, admins. Hope everyone doesn't leave this site because you're not perma-banning people they dont like...
 

JDSN

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,129
Moderation has issues with problematic stuff being posted in a nice way so it flies under their blindspots but not subtle enough that isnt caught by people that will get banned by getting frustrated because its a constant barrage of allowed bait.

Some folks are so afraid of that "echo chamber" tag that they end up permabanning decent people.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,050
Wow. Good luck with this site, admins. Hope everyone doesn't leave this site because you're not perma-banning people they dont like...

200.gif
 

ninjamonkey26

Member
Oct 30, 2017
82
The amount of people that went "This guy totally has a point" when Henry Cavill said he couldn't talk to a woman without the fear of rape allegations made me do a serious pause considering posting here.

You're not wrong, and it's such a reflection of the wider world. My reaction was to fall out of my seat dying of laughter that a 30+ yr old man would actually let those words come out of his mouth with sincerity. I shared it with some of my friends in a group chat and to my horror literally every one of them sided with Cavill... As a man who truly sides with feminism and equality, the world is a super depressing and lonely place.
 
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