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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The problem is that there are quite a few posters who are very good about dressing up their shitty views in a civil way and manage to say the same thing as the blatant offenders without getting banned.
You seem to be operating under a misconception here. This isn't actually a forum for everyone. It's actually maintained as a rehabilitation school for wayward bigots, run entirely by reluctant volunteers. /s
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I liked your earlier post, but this is a ridiculous assertion. I hope you're just joking around.
It's hard for me to have an actual discussion about this without real examples. I keep seeing stuff about "usual suspects" who seemingly keep getting a pass, but who are they and what are they posting?
Yeah, this.
"Excuse me but why are women so eager to falsely accuse men of rape? I'm just asking questions, I admit in all humility that females seem irrational to me."
Tons of misogyny, but a post like that would never get banned or even warned.
I agree it's over the top, but I find the amount of education that people are expecting to be provided is also a little ridiculous.
Uhh... I would bet real money that it would, especially depending on the topic of the thread..
I don't particularly care about the joke, but you're aware that sectarian violence ended in the 1990s, and that the British state is currently basically threatening to bring the issue back up due to Brexit conflicting with the Good Friday Agreement? America is not the whole world, and there is this little island where a lot of Irish people happen to live. Meanwhile part of that island has only very recently become a truly safe place for people that call themselves Irish to live. None of this takes away from the point of the thread or issues in America or anything.
Whenever I read comments like this, I do a metaphorical doubletake. Like, is the current climate that fucked up?
If this place was that progressive, there wouldn't be these massive arguments about whether it's okay to call women "females"...
The mods don't like it when we call out specific posters for their bigoted views, I was banned in this very thread for that reason, thankfully I was unbanned later, but I'm not sure if it was due to change in policy or what, funnily enough the poster I called out was banned yet again today for peddling more bigoted BS, can't wait for them to come back a few days later and continue their crusade.
Are there any examples from here or another thread that someone can show of a person hiding their bigotry? I don't know if we want to start dredging up posts, but the made up examples I've seen would absolutely get banned - I imagine it's just tough to create a realistic example of what they mean.
I'd like to know because maybe there are particular dog whistles I don't know about yet? I guess I worry I'd use them accidentally?
I'd like to know because maybe there are particular dog whistles I don't know about yet? I guess I worry I'd use them accidentally?
I don't want to @ or bother any mods but if there is anyone reading this who has familiarity with the platform here, are there opportunities to integrate anything like this to the site? In the spirit of looking at proactive measures. On reddit we do this sort of thing with automoderator and an offsite bot, I don't know if that is possible here.
True, being a woman and trying to answer men here often feels like you're a teacher at a rough all boys middle school in a shounen anime. I can only imagine how tired trans posters and PoC feel
Well, yes. If women and other minorities are saying that they do not feel comfortable here and that more could be done, that is a reasonable assertion to make is it not? I don't believe all problems can be solved with banning but it's not unreasonable to consider that a component of any potential reform.
I think the mods do a good job here, and are obviously trying to keep the really obnoxious posters off the boards, but when you're talking about a site that is used by 20-odd thousand people, you're going to get some disagreements. Throw in the fact that this is an international forum and that just adds further scope for conflict, as cultures clash and command of English varies. As is always the case, you can't keep everyone happy all of the time.
I do agree that there are some issues though. It is embarrassing seeing the same wrongheaded and defensive points raised again and again, especially in the kind of threads Persephone is referring too. I can get why that grinds people down and causes people to reconsider posting here. Its tricky to deal with though as its not always the same people, and intention can be hard to read, which makes going straight to banning seem harsh, so I have sympathy with the moderation team for the difficulty of their job. They are an order of magnitude better than the GAF mods, who could be petty and spiteful. A little bit of internet power definitely went to some of their heads over time. There is always room for improvement of course, but I think we should be somewhat grateful that the admins have done a far better job of keeping the arseholes away than the vast majority of other videogame boards.
I do agree that there are some issues though. It is embarrassing seeing the same wrongheaded and defensive points raised again and again, especially in the kind of threads Persephone is referring too. I can get why that grinds people down and causes people to reconsider posting here. Its tricky to deal with though as its not always the same people, and intention can be hard to read, which makes going straight to banning seem harsh, so I have sympathy with the moderation team for the difficulty of their job. They are an order of magnitude better than the GAF mods, who could be petty and spiteful. A little bit of internet power definitely went to some of their heads over time. There is always room for improvement of course, but I think we should be somewhat grateful that the admins have done a far better job of keeping the arseholes away than the vast majority of other videogame boards.
If you're serious and want to see how easy/hard it is for you to spot dogwhistles, read this thread.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/gameumentary-kingdom-come-deliverance-documentary.57542/
That's a fair judgement. If they don't feel comfortable who am I to judge?
But from the other side here, I (and many others) think the moderation is way too harsh. There are often bans with no clear indication as to why, and often because they disagree with the established superstar posters. There's little room for discussion on many topics, so anyone who knows better just doesn't post.
I know many people, industry and otherwise, who refuse to post here because it's seen as a hostile and unwelcoming environment.
Of course the amount of people saying those things matters.
This.
If they are failing to identify this, they need to learn.
FAST.
If they know and are refusing to act on this....
There needs to be some change ups.
It really doesn't in this case. At the end of the day this is a gaming forum and overwhelmingly cis/straight/white/male. You have to listen to and accomodate those that are marginalized, even if that's a smaller number of people.
The problem is that many people see everything as bigotry.
Especially since if these concerns aren't addressed most of the people that are not part of that demography will just NOT engage at all.
People aren't stupid, if they understand that they are not welcome they won't come at all.
The bigger problem is that some people see nothing as bigotry.
And then there's others who see nothing as bigotry at all and everything as just "differences of opionion".
When we can have a huge thread about asking people to not talk about women as livestock and it being huge not because everyone just come to say they agree, we have a problem.
This is perhaps an exaggeration, but I do think the core of this problem is clashing perceptions of what is acceptable and what is not. This issue is compounded further by perceptions of what is actually being communicated. Communication has never been a straightforward process. There are many messages that can be transmitted with the same sentence. What they wrote, what they thought they wrote, what you read, what you thought you read, what you thought they meant.
I agree. The amount needs to be adjusted to the reference group of course.
Oh, come on... This kind of gross misrepresentation is not helpful at all.
The current climate is definitely that fucked up. Compared to what happens in normal life, having a discussion on the nuances of the term "female" is a refreshing breeze.
That is not to belittle the worthiness of having that conversation by the way.
I think at least two posters here brought up unfair moderations only to revealed that they were lying or lying by omission.
You really wanna risk this? Because the bolded is just a straight up lie.
This is just what I've gathered from friends. I can try to ask for more details if needed.
People are way to quick to dogpile and deliberately misinterpret others because they're not seen as progressive enough.
Certain topics are essentially verboten. If you don't tow the company line it leads to an immediate ban.
There's a protected class of users that post a lot and will drown out all dissent. Any form of arguing with them always leads to a ban.
Certain topics are injected into every thread, no matter how innocuous or unrelated. And of course, these always lead to warnings and bans. People aren't sure what or where to post, so they just decide not to.
I think in some cases they are being a little too dramatic with their grievances, but I get the core of the complaint.
Okay, so what is a proper amount of minorities saying they feel uncomfortable for you to be concerned? How many have already left? How many are just tired of speaking out? You also need to understand what you're saying is used to dismiss concerns for those populations all the time.
What other side? If you mean non-minority posters, well, we have it pretty good overall and I don't think anyone needs to cater to us.
Example?
I would very much like an example of this as well if you don't mind.
Could you please ask a moderator if this is the case? There are like 20 people on the staff, I'm sure if this is the case one of them will agree with you, otherwise it would be pretty ridiculous to believe that that many people have a list somewhere that they have all agreed to that protects certain users from moderator action at the expense of other users, and the entire staff agrees on everyone on that list. I guarantee that is not a thing.
There is a reason for that clash though.
People that are in a privileged position in society feel like they have the authority to define what is considered bigotry. But these people never experienced that type of bigotry, so they need to shut up and listen to the people that do.
So, pretty much how women feel about videogame forums in general, right?
I've been seeing "shut up and listen" around a lot. Has it proven a successful reasoning tactic? Aggressive stances don't strike me as the way to go if you want to win hearts and minds.
It's not towing the company line it's basically just asking users show common respect and decency for people who are women, LBGT+ or PoC. If you can't do that you're actively making it a hostile environment for anyone who's not a white man
It should be seen as a hostile and unwelcoming environment to people who post rude shit.
Nobody cares about winning the hearts and minds of a bigot, they already have no heart and mind. The greater duty is to silence them and make sure as few people are hurt by their rhetoric as possible.
It barely is.
Look up the thread about Cavill's latest interviews, apparently women are such creatures that any interaction could degenerate in false rape accusations if you go by some posters here.
To those who still struggle to understand the concept of this thread and others like it ask yourself this, why do threads like these keep popping up? The answer itself is clear enough in this thread. So many people, overwhelmingly men, every time a thread regarding women's issues among others feel the need to twist themselves into a knot or go out of their way to post why they "aren't part of the problem" or "not all men" or deflect any criticism that goes against the privilege they've been given all their life for simply being a man. What do many men who partake in these threads not do? Listen. So many women constantly go out of their way to address why they take issues with things and combat toxic attitudes behavior but many are met with people sticking their heads in the sand or worse using "My wife/gf says otherwise" to dismiss every single other woman in a threads arguments to fit their preconceived notion. I'm sorry if what I'm about to say is harsh and I know this is a forum with the purpose of discussion but the best things any guy who wants to help combat this is to just shut up and listen. Don't write some long post about why you aren't part of the problem, don't use one selective example out of many that fits your narrative to dismiss others. Just sit there, shut up and listen to the woman who are constantly having to deal with so much crap, myself included, and what we are saying and what you can do to make this place a less toxic and more inviting place for women.
Sure, if anyone who deviates from your accepted opinions is automatically a bigot. But what about people who simply misunderstand? Isn't instant judgment of others part of the problem?
Precisely this; and it takes only a little discussion to figure out if someone wants to change or just wants to spout bigoted stuff and hide behind freeze peach
It totally is and now you're bringing up another thread and people's behavior in there to support your misrepresentation. No one would disagree with "let's not talk about women as livestock."
There are times where an aggressive stance is the only effective stance. Unless you wanna play that "both sides" game which would be a waste of everyone's time since we've been through that a million times.
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