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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Not anywhere out of touch consumers can reach you, that's for sure.
I'm not worried about being ban. I don't like the feeling from other members that I an not human cause I am a women. As soon as a thread about women pop up- it is derailed people who shout down my genders point of view. Just look at the recent "female" thread. The whole #not all men thing is a conversion killer that usually starts on page 1, yet is not dealt with until 10, 20, 30 pages in. And the solution is to close the thread. Which is a victory for women haters.
And the words are terrible slang we uses to use, but have learn not to use because they are offensive to other people. We don't want to use those words anymore. We are just afraid of being judged for our stupid past.
We're you the one saying that James should never be forgiven in that topic? Plus, do you have any examples of people proving your theory or is it all just about you being upset that people were able to forgive him for jokes he made years ago when you wouldn't?
This topic wouldn't exist if people didn't believe others were capable of change.
I think there are a looot of people on this site that have not learned how to properly express their emotions or opinions. The amount of grown adults pitching temper tantrums on gaming side over any little thing that doesn't validate their opinion, the constant need for everything to be framed as "best ever" vs "trash" (seriously, pay attention to how often threads pop up titled "X is the best thing ever/in history/etc." for no reason), and the framing of differing opinions as either intentionally malicious or deranged say a lot to how much effort a lot of posters put into their comments, and makes me wary of how they'd behave in a thread like, for instance, this one.
People need to stop being so attached to their opinions, they need to stop focusing on having something to say and they need to focus on
If they have nothing of substance to contribute to the conversation, it would be better if they didnt particpate, though. It certainly doesnt help.
while participation obviously cannot be barred (a necessary evil of open discussion forums), it's not something that should be encouraged in that context, as it only muddies what could otherwise be productive waters.
I would agree with that, I think that the harsh reactions people have to being called out is that sexist/racist/bigots are terms that are generally taken in the most extreme way. Much of society doesn't recognize those words as having such wide degrees of application.
Like I'll be honest. If next year I'm told that I'm not allowed to say "lady" anymore my first gut reaction is going to be "seriously?". Personally I would process things and empathize with why the issue was brought up before giving a vocal reaction, and I would defer to the preferences of the group that is subjected to being called a word they don't want to be called. But plenty of people would instantly speak/write that "seriously?" comment. If they're then called a sexist for that reaction, they're going to double down on that "seriously?", they'll feel attacked and then automatically try to defend themselves. That is a deficiency with them, not with the group in reference. However this is where I tend to veer a little from the general discourse on this board.
The general stance I have seen on this board is fuck whether or not that person feels attacked. They're not the ones who need empathy, women and minorities are. And I agree with that in an ideal world. But where I tend to defer from the board is that I think we need to be more results focused, which means having conversations that we should be above having, and attempting to engage with people we shouldn't have to engage with. It's not fair but I think it also is the best path to getting the end result we want.
With sentiments like "fuck engaging with bigots, they have no soul and are unreachable", I think it goes back to degrees of bigotry. Obviously there are people like nazis who are genuinely too far gone. But I think there are plenty of people that can be engaged with. I grew up in a midwestern conservative Christian environment and was raised believing homosexuality was a sin. I was a bigot, no doubt. But if I was called bigot, chances are that I would have doubled down. Instead, I was lucky enough to know some very nice and patient people in the LGBT community and because of them I realized that I had been a piece of shit growing up. Even my parents are converted on this subject, and they're stubborn as hell most of the time. Those friends of mine should not have had to deal with me. But they did, and because of that results were achieved.
Obviously I'm a bit biased there since that is based on a personal experience that elicits my own emotions about what a terrible person I could be if I hadn't encountered the right people.
My post doesn't help, apologies. Got carried away by the current flow of the topic.
Since the thread is already derailed, gonna say the moderation on the site is a joke. Anyone can ban clear cut shitposting/trolling I'm not citing that, even GAF for all it's faults banned shitposting on the spot proper (ERA does a decent job in this aspect). Bigots getting away with saying dumb shit just because they post with no profanity and use nuanced word play to make it not seem obvious. When someone confronts or calls them out on their shit, that said user gets banned/warning... good stuff.
i mean i assume you came into this thread to express some constructive criticism?
if you're not going to substantiate which specific "certain topics" that "are essentially verboten" according to "your friends" then what could anyone do with that information? how could anyone engage with it, whether to agree or disagree?
i was indeed hoping that you would contribute to the discussion rather than just whine
You have some really damn thick nostalgia goggles for GAF moderation
I still think Era is one of the better communities on the internet, but yeah there's definitely a problem with sexism sometimes. I think it's usually benign, mostly just a byproduct of the demographics of this place (overwhelmingly straight males) but that doesn't mean people shouldn't try to educate themselves and be open to criticism.
What I learned in this and other recent threads is that it is incredibly hard for some people to just genuinely say and think
"Oh, I didn't know how this made you feel. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will be more considerate in the future"
Especially frustrating when being more considerate doesn't even cost them anything.
"Oh, I didn't know how this made you feel. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will be more considerate in the future"
Especially frustrating when being more considerate doesn't even cost them anything.
100% agreed. Some bans, especially some of those by its owner were insulting to witness.
Do you have any intention of responding to my post Skyrim? I think talking out your concerns could be helpful for other people who share them as your sentiment has been echoed by others.
Fair question.
I don't know what my friends and colleagues are thinking, so I'll speak for myself here.
Everyone needs to just chill out a little. Not everything is a secret dogwhistle for the alt-right who are running a psyop to take down the forum from the inside. Sometimes people just don't think before they speak, or disagree with what the majority thinks. As long as it's not some heinous shit (which I have seen a few examples of, and which totally deserves a ban) we should all just calm down a little.
I do appreciate that you're willing to have this conversation with me.
Huh? I was saying that any site can do the "easy" bans... even GAF... their mod's were the worst though.
What I'm saying is that ERA does a terrible job at giving the wrong warnings to the wrong people. Bigots post their opinion in a nice constructed post, someone else comes in a little hostile to confront, the person who confronted gets hit with a warning/ban.
Okay, well I'm sorry to give you more to respond to, but could you expand on why you believe it is appropriate for you to tell minorities on the forum(women in the case of this thread) that they need to calm down, or to dismiss their concerns in that way?
Ah okay, sorry, I misread what you said.
That being sad bigots skirting warnings/bans because of how they word their posts isn't really an Era only problem either. That was a problem that existed on GAF for the longest time too and it was easier to get away with it there because the reporting system there was nonexistent .
i really dont know what anyone is expecting from him. He has "game dev friends" that want a place that will tolerate typical game dev locker room talk
Literally just mentally play out a scenario and it will be more engaging. We dont need to do it again.
What "locker room talk" is that? What, exactly, do you think we all want to say but are too scared to?
And RedMercury, I apologize. I haven't seen your comment. I got slammed with notifications and clearly missed some. I'll go back to see if I can find it.
I dunno making vague insinuations without support while arguing moderation ought to be relaxed isn't very tranquilo
There are lots of amazing posts here (Her Hero Is Gone, OPs, excelsior's input to name a few); it saddens me to read plenty of other women who no longer feel welcome here.
I get it.
Plenty of other drive-by posting and dishonest whatabouting that I've seen in a myriad of other threads in the weeks following the exodus from the other site. The constant negativity of the etcera forum, the nonstop news threads, then other threads where the only reason that it seems they exist is to criticize public figures or some sort of lowkey concern trolling. I don't know when specifically the 'fun'/honeymoon period ended for me - a couple of months ago? I no longer read ERA since so many threads get derailed and it seems that many posters just make the same arguments, only they have another name. I check Etcera once a week, if that, since I've cut down on my media + news consumption to lighten my mood.
I'm saddened to see that the more things change (goodbye GAF), that they stay the same (hello ERA). Stricter moderation would be nice but I don't know if it's feasible. It seems that the whole internet is just turning into more shit; maybe I just haven't found the good part where everyone else is. Or maybe they've all checked out and are living in the real world? ERA can improve with love, care and more inclusivity and less tolerance for bullshitting. It's on a volunteer-basis though. Day-to-day live can be draining, and then to come onto Etcera and see gaslighting and dishonest posting is even more so.
I really appreciate all the real posting and input from those who genuinely care and many kudos to you Persephone for starting this conversation. Hoping for the best for ERA going forward and look forward to seeing what the moderators come up with.
I get it.
Plenty of other drive-by posting and dishonest whatabouting that I've seen in a myriad of other threads in the weeks following the exodus from the other site. The constant negativity of the etcera forum, the nonstop news threads, then other threads where the only reason that it seems they exist is to criticize public figures or some sort of lowkey concern trolling. I don't know when specifically the 'fun'/honeymoon period ended for me - a couple of months ago? I no longer read ERA since so many threads get derailed and it seems that many posters just make the same arguments, only they have another name. I check Etcera once a week, if that, since I've cut down on my media + news consumption to lighten my mood.
I'm saddened to see that the more things change (goodbye GAF), that they stay the same (hello ERA). Stricter moderation would be nice but I don't know if it's feasible. It seems that the whole internet is just turning into more shit; maybe I just haven't found the good part where everyone else is. Or maybe they've all checked out and are living in the real world? ERA can improve with love, care and more inclusivity and less tolerance for bullshitting. It's on a volunteer-basis though. Day-to-day live can be draining, and then to come onto Etcera and see gaslighting and dishonest posting is even more so.
I really appreciate all the real posting and input from those who genuinely care and many kudos to you Persephone for starting this conversation. Hoping for the best for ERA going forward and look forward to seeing what the moderators come up with.
Some of the hangouts have a very different tone than the general OT board. If you're feeling stressed out by OT you might want to poke around if you haven't tried to yet.
Understandable. A niche of a niche corner for like-minded friends/coworkers when compared to a general public forum like this one.
But what is the point in bringing that up in this thread specifically other than to whine about moderation, tell people to chill & relax? I found most his posts a bit odd in this thread honestly.
That's the fun with vague unsupported insinuations...
The best and worst are easily assumed.
I've seen the same but the complaints tend to be about the userbase and *not* harsh moderation. Complaints about how racist and sexist things can get. Complaints about how hyperbolic people get. Complaints on how jumpy people are(related to everything. not just social issues like people try to pretend). They see era the same as youtube "don't scroll down, don't read the comments".
Cutting down on the bigots would change forum culture. rn its a bit of a war zone.
and ofc people felt the same way about gaf back in the day. would be nice to finally get past that
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In a scenario like that, sexism or racism is absolutely the root cause, or at least one of the causes. I wouldn't necessarily go as far to say bigotry on one case alone, I think that would depend on the severity of the conversation and opinion held.
Lack of empathy is one thing, but refusal to acknowledge and understand issues pertaining to women, or otherwise, is simply dismissing their thoughts and excluding their voices from being important. Deeming something as insignificant is downplaying someone else's struggles and, quite frankly, it's not their place to decide what should or shouldn't be important for women. That would be sexist in itself to control that.
And the thing about empathy is that in a lot of these cases, you don't even need empathy to hold the right stance. If you don't empathize with something, you could still acknowledge the existence of a problem and step back for those who deal with that problem to explain their piece. Absolutely no one is going to understand 100% of the things they come across. When that happens, the right move is to realize that and step aside for those who are trying to speak out above their oppression, not try to obstruct them.
This hypothetical doesn't necessarily have to describe someone who hates women, but they're certainly not on the side of women if they believe they can decide what is or isn't important for other people. For some, they'd at the very least consider them an enemy to progression.
There's just a pretty prominent reoccurring theme amongsy "verboten" subjects here, something the games industry has a lot of trouble with.
And consequently, not everything is an evil conspiracy by evil women/minorities against your friends. Sometimes, these things are just actions that hurt people that aren't like you and your friends, and it would be nice if the first reaction to those wasn't just "they ought to calm down" but "maybe they have a point", you know?
Why should topics like "please don't treat women in a sexist way" be essentially verboten?
These are serious questions, by the way. I'm not trying to gotcha you, but just try to see it from another perspective here. This is a thread where the OP (and many other women) pointed out that they hate being silenced and told to shut up and calm down. And yet, the response often is "keep quiet" which is somewhat disheartening when the topic is already silencing women, and the proposed solution is women chilling out, ie... ...being silenced.
That kinda doesn't seem to solve the problem brought up by the OP, it makes it worse and is, in fact, the source of the problem.
GAF had the benefit of when bigots were banned they were gone for weeks and months and juniors were perm'd. But I'm def glad the report system here allows people to fill in the cracks where moderators aren't
What is stopping you from not assuming the worst in this particular scenario?
Era is a hovel for white, left-leaning males. I don't see that ever really changing, and honestly I don't care if it doesn't. As it exists, its perfect for insight into these peoples minds. When I want actual fucking diversity, I go elsewhere, fuck Era in that regard. But as I said, I primarily use this place for insight, while some of y'all damn near live here, so you might have different ideas entirely
I think it's difficult for a lot of guys to just accept something as truth on premise alone. So when someone says to just fall in line and trust someone else's perspective as truth, it doesn't feel right. I don't think that it's right that men often operate this way, but it's a common theme I have noticed within myself and friend groups.
Most of what I see on this board seem like reasonable complaints and we should be empathetic to those experiences absolutely. However, every once in a while though, I see something so hyperbolic and extraordinary sounding that it's sometimes very hard to accept as truth without further explanation or exploration.
Honestly though, I really don't see why guys would feel the need to push back against women asking not to be called "females". It's not like you have to bend over backwards to do as such, even if for yourself it seems unreasonable. It literally takes no effort.
Sad to say I think a lot of it comes from a visceral kneejerk feeling of "DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"
I'm happy to read that you feel welcome here.
I know that a lot of the administration here are women, and I know that their stated intent has been and will always be for Era to be an inclusive, and safe forum for people to share their views and engage in civil discourse. Thing is, it doesn't always happen, and the moderators do err on the side of caution. Moderation is a moving target, and they aren't always going to nail it -- what matters is more hits than misses, and while as a male I know that I am not always going to be cognizant of what others are seeing and feeling on this forum, but I know a lot of people on this forum are absolutely a credit to it and for those who are posting with every intention of making this place better and keeping it to a high standard are appreciated. I realize it sounds sappy and all, but a big thanks should go out to all the women posters of Era; they have it harder, they know it, but their presence here is absolutely essential to making this forum the best it can be. So thanks.
And that's why some very enthusiastic posters are asking for clarification. I'm still not seeing why a post lacking in concrete examples opens the doors to assuming the worst of the poster.
i feel like, if people feel like they are being called out for the views they are expressing, or for HOW they are expressing them, maybe they should do what the subject of this thread is about and try to understand the concerns of marginalized people, rather than getting defensive or downplaying them. if what you're saying makes people feel like you have bad intentions, then maybe you should try to learn why that is so you can communicate more clearly in the future, or maybe even evolve your views, no?
i have personally learned a lot from this community and have evolved a lot as a person compared to when i started posting nearly a decade ago, and maybe your friends could do the same?
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That is a good point. I missed some things in the thread, and should have chosen my words more carefully. Women in gaming and playing games is something I care deeply about. My point about "calming down" was not directed at women in particular, and I'm sorry it came off that way.
To maybe try and explain myself a bit better... There's already at least one user in here accusing me of having sinister intentions. Automatically assuming the worst about me. This is what I mean. Maybe we (as a collective) shouldn't immediately jump to the worst possible scenario? This is a discussion forum, so I don't think it's productive to assume the worst about everyone. Once that's been set as the level of discussion it's hard to bring it back down, you know?
Anyway, I have work to do so I may not be able to post as much for the next few hours. But I do appreciate everyone who took the time to engage with me.
Because this kind of topics has a history of bad faith posters,
you may have the luxury to consider this behavior harmless but I'd say that's your perspective.
Oh, I'm a new poster here but yeah, I can already sense that mods do their job. I have to thank them. This feels like a much more welcoming and progressive place than others on the internet. I've felt that for a long time, women's presence was either anonymous or absent in gaming forum's where, you know, it shouldn't be that way. I've been here for like a month or so and so far I haven't really found any overtly toxic comments, which is great.
I hope you can find my post for later, I restated it a couple times but will also give you a link to it so you can save it https://www.resetera.com/threads/eras-woman-problem-read-op.57534/page-39#post-10774110
So, in any topic that you view as "having a history," you automatically assume the worst of everyone who doesn't post in a satisfactorily concrete way when they try to express their thoughts?
What is this stuff about "having the luxury," by the way? What cost are you paying to not assume the worst in individuals?
Era has lost a few BCC members as well btw, it does seem some people from minority groups have had enough
that's a report link
i think the link you wanted to give was:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/eras-woman-problem-read-op.57534/page-39#post-10774110
(or am i missing some kind of joke)
So, as a relative newcomer here, is there anything I can do to help women and minorities feel more comfortable here? I know that moderations are one thing that have to be re-evaluated, but as a regular user I want to help as well if I can.
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