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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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There are literally dozens of people expanding on the same sentiments if you read the thread and the thrust of what the OP is getting at. Better that than to focus on a catch-all term that brings a lot of the areas/issues mentioned under one banner without having to list them out (and potentially exclude some) each time.
Era is 'progressive' for a US-based computer games forum, which is kinda damning with faint praise considering the generally right-wing slant of US politics and that people from all over the world post here.
I still feel like Newton's third law applies to social topics or discussions in general, too, which would explain why certain threads went the way they were. What I mean is, the more we push in one direction there will be a push of equal force in the other direction. (This shouldn't mean that it is not worth having said threads or discussion)
Another problem in my personal opinion, which is not specific to era but rather the internet as a whole, is that due to the lack of body language and intonation in written text people tend to use a more exaggerated and/or subjectively influenced language than they would normally use, which makes certain discussions feel more loaded than they actually are.
Furthermore there are people who try to participate in these discussions who aren't native english speakers (like myself) and therefore might word something poorly and/or wrongly and miss what and how they actually wanted to say something.
And as a last point I feel that people are way too obsessed to determine who is at fault rather than taking an objective look at a certain problem and thinking about what they/we can do to solve it.
So what can we - as a community - do to improve upon this problems? Like many people have already said show empathy towards people who suffers from a problem. Don't try to find someone to blame for this problem but rather think about a solution to it. Treat people with respect. Don't feed the troll and lastly a word of wisdom from my grandfather: "Choose your words wisely because you never know how someone perceives them".
All of this should be pretty obvious solutions but unfortunately taking a look at this thread and other like-minded threads I feel like people still have a lot to learn…
Another problem in my personal opinion, which is not specific to era but rather the internet as a whole, is that due to the lack of body language and intonation in written text people tend to use a more exaggerated and/or subjectively influenced language than they would normally use, which makes certain discussions feel more loaded than they actually are.
Furthermore there are people who try to participate in these discussions who aren't native english speakers (like myself) and therefore might word something poorly and/or wrongly and miss what and how they actually wanted to say something.
And as a last point I feel that people are way too obsessed to determine who is at fault rather than taking an objective look at a certain problem and thinking about what they/we can do to solve it.
So what can we - as a community - do to improve upon this problems? Like many people have already said show empathy towards people who suffers from a problem. Don't try to find someone to blame for this problem but rather think about a solution to it. Treat people with respect. Don't feed the troll and lastly a word of wisdom from my grandfather: "Choose your words wisely because you never know how someone perceives them".
All of this should be pretty obvious solutions but unfortunately taking a look at this thread and other like-minded threads I feel like people still have a lot to learn…
I agree with your post, but sometimes I feel like a very small request in one direction (don't call x by x term etc) is met by a massive response desperate not to have to make the mildest of concessions.
I get why you might ask due to the language thing, but this is really a sensitive place to bring it up. I would advise against using female or male as a noun to refer to people. It should be only be used as a modifier for another word.
Using them as nouns doesn't sound natural unless you're referring to a different species, so it has that implication. Usually, the people who call women 'females' are using the term in this way to dehumanize women, when they would refer to themselves as 'men'.
As for my post, I am both glad and disappointed that I'm not the only one that feels this way. Generally I start a post, I start getting too mad, realize it's a bad way to spend my break, realize it's not worth it, and cancel out. I know this doesn't help anyone but me, but fuck it. So I appreciate all the more the tough women who speak up every time. They still think this community is worth their efforts and the toll it takes on their blood pressure.
I think Linkura had a good suggestion about hiding the content of banned posts behind spoiler tags. Giving members the option to show it always is great, but having it there all the time is like leaving a pile of shit in front of your house with a big red 'sorry about the shit, this individual won't shit here again' sign. Everyone's still gotta smell it and be less inclined to drop in.
Maybe nothing! But that quote is your argument most likely and sometimes it can be enough.
agreed. plus hiding the content makes it clear "Hey this isnt something we want visible on this forum" and further encourages people not to discuss it
i dont think its necessarily a solution to any one problem but it increases the ways that moderation can affect the thread and gives more ways for users to control their experience
its just a nice feature
Rebecca Traister, at the end of The Wilderness episode 3, said this:
Which I think says it all, regardless of how large or small the requests are.
Scrooge McDuck Her Hero Is Gone
I get that this is a sensitive topic. Thats probably the reason why i didnt even bother asking about it even though i was looking for a clear response for a long time. Then again in my initial post i stated that i dont adress women as female....so this was really just about understanding the issue, not fighting or arguing against it.
Now im myself in the position to tell other people why they shouldnt use the term - being able to explain is usually more helpful than just saying someone is wrong and should drop it.
I get that this is a sensitive topic. Thats probably the reason why i didnt even bother asking about it even though i was looking for a clear response for a long time. Then again in my initial post i stated that i dont adress women as female....so this was really just about understanding the issue, not fighting or arguing against it.
Now im myself in the position to tell other people why they shouldnt use the term - being able to explain is usually more helpful than just saying someone is wrong and should drop it.
"But the Irish have faced historical discrimination, white on white racism, etc" is a huge derail considering politics in America right now and the purpose of this thread. It's technically correct, but do you really want to be that guy bringing up how America had white indentured servants in the days of early colonialism when the thread is about say, police brutality against the black community? That kinda stuff just bears little relevance. You don't like my posts you can always ignore them my friend.
I appreciate this post, particularly the bolded. A lot of threads get derailed by a combination of people using hyperbolic language (common on the internet) and people assuming everyone else is posting in bad faith (leading to strawmen, dog piles, shitposts, etc).
While I do wish moderators would take a stronger stance sometimes against posters who continually assume the worst about everyone else (and thus derail), it's ultimately up to each of us, individually, to make the effort to have a precise and productive discourse. Together, hopefully, we can keep the community pleasant for all involved.
I was unbanned. I hope that means a change is coming in.
My criticism to the moderation is that calling out bigotry is incredibly difficult, we always have to be nice to bigots, they get to continue to spew their hatred because they dogwhistle very nicely while we get banned for challenging them in a not very nice way. I hope the mods deal with very nice dogwhistles more harshly in the future, otherwise, I don't think I'll be posting much here, the place is already devolving into KiA (check a few threads in the first page if you don't believe me).
My criticism to the moderation is that calling out bigotry is incredibly difficult, we always have to be nice to bigots, they get to continue to spew their hatred because they dogwhistle very nicely while we get banned for challenging them in a not very nice way. I hope the mods deal with very nice dogwhistles more harshly in the future, otherwise, I don't think I'll be posting much here, the place is already devolving into KiA (check a few threads in the first page if you don't believe me).
Sex is defined as the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics. Gender can either be based on sex of the person or the persons own identification.
Based on your original post it would be correct to define a non-trans man as the opposite sex to a trans woman. However the discussion about post-op is more grey. If the primary sex characteristic is the same as any other in that sex, then the classification becomes more arbitrary.
In my opinion it would be better if sexual relationships were defined by the genders involved not sex.
People posting the dictionary definition of "female" in that thread was the most cringe shit ever.
Like, we know.
Words have context and connotations.
Like, we know.
Words have context and connotations.
That is one thing I do hope mods are more harsh on. You got dudes that say bigotted shit all the time yet get away with it by how they frame it. It's not a one of there are about 50 odd dudes that do the same thing. The other thing they seem to do is the "just asking questions" rubbish. Which ends up with dudes that get snappy over receiving bigoted abuse getting the ban.
Moving on from the out right bigots, I do feel some people get way too protective over things and end up dogpiling people with a different opinion. If the opinion is legitimate then I see no reason for some to get so defensive. I think some need to chill a lil, it would make this forum a better place
Is this forum really bad? Nah. Can this forum get better? Yep.
Not that it makes it right in the slightest, but it's similar to what happens in day to day life. ERA just follows that
You get people who pretend or outwardly show or say they are progressive. That they are against racism, sexism and many other things. But that's only when it suits them, or to save face when said sexism may involve or put into bad light things that interest them, such as entertainment and celebrity figures, then people are quick to obfuscate, delfect, victim blame and so on.
People aren't racist or sexist, until they suddenly are. No body wants to be the bad guy, so they pretend (sometimes unknowingly) to be the good guy. So you'll get fake condolences and they'll play along, until something they care about faces the brunt of it. Then they drop the pretense, one that they mah not have even known they had
You get people who pretend or outwardly show or say they are progressive. That they are against racism, sexism and many other things. But that's only when it suits them, or to save face when said sexism may involve or put into bad light things that interest them, such as entertainment and celebrity figures, then people are quick to obfuscate, delfect, victim blame and so on.
People aren't racist or sexist, until they suddenly are. No body wants to be the bad guy, so they pretend (sometimes unknowingly) to be the good guy. So you'll get fake condolences and they'll play along, until something they care about faces the brunt of it. Then they drop the pretense, one that they mah not have even known they had
Isn't the heavy use of "female" also really popular in incel circles too?
Since Incels are the offspring of the PUA cesspool, yeah.
Video games message boards will always have a disbalance.
ResetEra is probably more civil , but not perfect .
We men just need to be better behaved and respectful
ResetEra is probably more civil , but not perfect .
We men just need to be better behaved and respectful
I'm not clear on what this has to do with my post?
People have said shorter ban times are essential because they allow people to grow and change. That's a viable consideration, but I'm not convinced that there's any evidence that people really change since they generally seem to consider their bans to not be their own fault in any way, so nothing to grow from.
This thread would seem to bear that out, directly contradicting the argument being made by some within the thread.
Too fucking right. There are a number of bad faith posters who get by by being civil with their bigotry, disingenuousness and JAQing off. People who spot the pattern of lowkey crappy behaviour will often get banned for pointing it out or getting a little bit heated in response. That is bullshit tone policing that lets the cause of the drama slide on by to keep on shitting up threads.
100% agreement. As you say: The problem with moderating by harshness is that it allows people that have dehumanizing opinions to game the system - all they need to do is package their "opinions" in nice enough language, and they can get by, while those they dehumanize still get hit by the dehumanization.
If punishment hits people reacting badly to dehumanization, but those that phrased it ~nicely~ get by, what actually happened is that the dehumanizing opinion gets enshrined as beyond reproach, while those it dehumanize not only have to deal with it, they also have to police themselves to even post. And consequently post less.
Some people certainly are posting pretty much KIA memes, post outright GG propaganda, post links to GG twitter accounts (I remember someone linking to friggin MOMBOT), and flip out when people criticize sexism. I mean, there's people in this forum that think that saying that someone is mansplaining is worse than sexist behavior itself. Difficult to get more KIA than that. Classic "Pointing out racism is racist" line of thinking.
(Or the folks on the first page saying that Persephone is ~Extreme~. That a post like the thread starter counts as extreme to some people is... just the *idea* of that baffles me. I'd call Persephone's post very *mild*.)
A bigot committed suicide because of mental health issues. People were focusing on the fact that they were harassed... not the mental health issues which they showed signs of having before.
I got banned for victim blaming when wanting to talk about this and the moderation team tacitly decided that this person would become an anti lgbt martyr because that's how the conversation was being framed everywhere else - the lgbt community harassed this person into suicide. Make no mistake though this person was a bigot who was trying to get bisexual people fired and prevent actors/ agencies from working with them. Instead of adding nuance to the discussion the moderation team decided that this was going to be a forced statement about autonomy or whatever the fuck view they supported and they weren't hearing any of it. They shut down avenues of discussion here and as a bisexual person I felt attacked and, as often is in the case, disregarded.
Then there is their views on religion. My leg of progressiveness is anti religion because I believe that by nature religion is conservative and that includes the myriad problems that go with this statement. I won't get into all the ways in which I think religion is bad for society and on a person to person basis right now but we aren't allowed to comment on religion at all, not in a meaningful way that matters to people like me, because we get warned/ banned for "inflammatory language".
I have other anecdotes but eh... I don't care any more. Good faith discussion is fucked here in ways that matter to me... so now I'm just a detached lurker since I find discussion here meaningless outside of videogames. I'll gladly read peoples takes here but this is not a place for discussing issues for me. I have nothing to contribute because I'm not the right flavor of progressive.
The way I've seen people comment about religion is petty as hell, though. "Imaginary sky Gods" and the like. There's no reason to stoop that low when talking to religious people. No matter how much you don't believe in their faith, religious people aren't Alt-Right who deserve to be disrespected for the things they "believe in".
I'm Agnostic, personally, but the way "our Atheists" argue against Religion and Spiritualism pisses me off more than some of the more fundamental religious people.
Then don't respond. Report put them on ignore and move on. If you do decide to engage with people of course you would be expected to to follow the same rules as everyone else. Just because the person you responded to gets banned doesn't mean you can resort to hostility, personal attacks or whatever. If they receive no punishment then their post maybe wasn't as bad as you personally perceive it to be which would be even more reason to engage them in a normal discussion and not respond in an extremely heated way
Seems like you are making things harder for yourself than they need to be. Whether you respond or not isn't going to change if that person gets punished or not. If a post is shitty and deserves to be banned it will get reported enough, the mods see it and decide on the punishment.
At the end it is a forum you visit when you can and want so if you don't wanna have a discussion with someone and you find their post bad just report it and don't waste your time on people like that
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Nooo, don't be coy. Oliver Cromwell led the campaign to put down the Irish people in 1649 that helped leave nearly half my countries population at the time dead.
Sorry if people use us to derail your conversations but to suggest Ollie, scamp that he was, beat us up a bit, plays with a painful part of our history.
But you needn't worry about it, the Irish are famed for our dark sense of humour, our capacity to smile in the face of despair. It's culturally ingrained, part of who we are, a generational gift passed down through the centuries. In our art, in our souls. Part of living under the boot of one histories more assholish empires I guess.
So when people, usually Americans, who are swirling down a toilet of dysfunction right now, wanna wag their fingers at the rest of the world and dictate to us where the lines are, what can and can't be mined for humour, as if they held the moral authority to supercede us, it honestly feels just a little bit condescending.
If you wanna come to Ireland an' tell us, tell women like my mother, who grew up under the opaque shroud of the Catholic church, that finding a way to push through and laugh about painful things, makes them terrible people, they'll push you back out to sea. Scotland, Wales and Australia too, if I were to hazard a guess.
That's not to say you can't set reasonable boundries for yourselves, like if you wanted to say what can and can't be joked about in here, that's entirely your prerogative. And for the topic at hand you definitely derserve to have a safe, less exhausting environment here. Not sure what you'll need to do to get it in such a large community though. Maybe a private, invite only subforum, where you can enforce a much stricter sense of peace and quiet? A way to hang out in a griefless cloister and recharge your batteries.
TBH I think Oliver Cromwell was horrible, and I get what you're saying because we've had other Irish in this forum complaining of the same thing. I was being a bit cheeky but I do think we should all be able to agree Crommers was a douche
Also tbh I was kinda referencing the simpsons.
I don't really have much to add, but I completely agree. This place probably is still one of the most progressive/left gaming forums on the internet, which unfortunately says a lot about the larging gaming community.
I really don't understand why the culture around playing and discussing video games has become this way, but it is definitely very conservative and hostile to people who don't fit into the stereotypical "gamer" role. I work in tech and it is a very similar environment. I have no idea why these environments tend to produce men who are either apathetic or hostile to anything that isn't about tech/gaming. You don't really get that same level of "I really don't care about anything except my interests so just leave me alone" from other fields.
I really appreciate how heavy handed the moderation is here. It could even be stricter. There are already infinite numbers of places to talk about games where there's no rules and the mods only step in for illegal content. It's nice to have a place that actively tries to push back against the shittiness in the community, even if the results are not perfect
I really don't understand why the culture around playing and discussing video games has become this way, but it is definitely very conservative and hostile to people who don't fit into the stereotypical "gamer" role. I work in tech and it is a very similar environment. I have no idea why these environments tend to produce men who are either apathetic or hostile to anything that isn't about tech/gaming. You don't really get that same level of "I really don't care about anything except my interests so just leave me alone" from other fields.
I really appreciate how heavy handed the moderation is here. It could even be stricter. There are already infinite numbers of places to talk about games where there's no rules and the mods only step in for illegal content. It's nice to have a place that actively tries to push back against the shittiness in the community, even if the results are not perfect
TBH I think Oliver Cromwell was horrible, and I get what you're saying because we've had other Irish in this forum complaining of the same thing. I was being a bit cheeky but I do think we should all be able to agree Crommers was a douche
Also tbh I was kinda referencing the simpsons.
Lol, no worries, I know you didn't carry any hostile intent.
The reason I used to post here and the former place a lot was because it's supposed to be a "progressive" forum, but it ceases to be a progressive forum when many posts will not look out of place if they were posted in KiA. If the mods and site owners want to take the website in that direction, then that's fine, but I won't be posting here much if that was the case. You can't seriously claim that this place is progressive anymore when we have many people with viewpoints such as "women in Battlefield V is historically inaccurate" or "Jessica Price should be fired because she was unprofessional". We even have fucking Dave Rubin and Sam Harris defense force in here, if white supremacy is allowed and defended here, can you really claim that this place is progressive?
Since this website was founded and the forum opened up, I have advocated for opt-in gender, race, orientation and pronoun areas either on the user's profile or on their posts like a tag. Much like the "vERAfied" or "resettler" tags, people would be able to look to those posters as leaders in the conversation and it would give them more leeway to shape the thread and the ensuing discussion. Straight white men assume they are speaking with other straight white men; show them evidence to the contrary right from the jump in a thread and they'll either change their tone when addressing those posters (good) or they'll reconsider posting entirely and instead listen to those different from them (better).
As this would bring race/gender/sexuality into all conversations, this would require tight moderation to ensure everyone is playing nice, but I can see I'm far from the only one asking for that.
As this would bring race/gender/sexuality into all conversations, this would require tight moderation to ensure everyone is playing nice, but I can see I'm far from the only one asking for that.
We already have this with gender and users routinely ignore it and assume everyone is a man.
What if the bigotry is phrased "nicely" though? This is actually how the alt-right colonizes online spaces, and it serves a twofold purpose:
It normalizes the bigotry, because it is not acted on by mods (since it seems civil), and drives out the targets of the bigotry.
Being silent about it doesn't solve that. "Female characters have no place in this kind of game" won't be unterrible even if it is phrased all nicely and gets a cute bow. "Female streamers are taking views unfairly from male streamers" won't stop being terrible even if it gets a cute paintjob, either.
Remember, being nice and outwardly polite to the letter is what matters. The actual content of the message is to be ignored. Always.
Which probably enables the Peterson/Harris/Rubin defense squads. Just be ~polite~ with the supremacy.
Yup, the thread about their panel made me chill and question if I even belong here.
Currently it's too easy to ignore, it requires a profile view and there are no consequences for it. If it's displayed openly to those participating in the discussion it can't be ignored (hence me bringing up the other tags, those are attention grabbing and clearly mark the poster as someone who should be paid your attention)
If you misgender someone, call them a different race than what they are, do not use their preferred pronoun, or otherwise deny them the authority they would have in sex/gender/race/secuality threads, then you get actioned. The information would be staring you right in the face and not caring about it would be tantamount to bad faith posting.
Here are some tips for non-minority members when dealing with minority issues discussions.
1) Listen.
2) Be open-minded. If you read something that seems "wrong," rather than try to argue that it's wrong, assume you don't know the score and go back to step one.
3) If you aren't getting the picture still, you have two options. Google, or respectfully ask while understanding that you are ignorant on the subject. Asking for info is a lot different than asking to challenge. A lot of the root of the issue this thread addresses is the constant challenging.
4) If you do have the urge to challenge, look at what you are defending, and why. There might be something valid there, but it also just might be that you feel uncomfortable. Try on the uncomfortable feeling for a bit-- that's how those minority members feel a lot of the time.
5) If you feel unfairly tarred by a generalization, take an "if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it" approach. It's AMAZING how much easier this makes it for me as a straight white male to not be set off by a conversation. Understand that the generalization may be broad, but it exists for a reason. Seek to understand the reason rather than to reflexively defend yourself.
1) Listen.
2) Be open-minded. If you read something that seems "wrong," rather than try to argue that it's wrong, assume you don't know the score and go back to step one.
3) If you aren't getting the picture still, you have two options. Google, or respectfully ask while understanding that you are ignorant on the subject. Asking for info is a lot different than asking to challenge. A lot of the root of the issue this thread addresses is the constant challenging.
4) If you do have the urge to challenge, look at what you are defending, and why. There might be something valid there, but it also just might be that you feel uncomfortable. Try on the uncomfortable feeling for a bit-- that's how those minority members feel a lot of the time.
5) If you feel unfairly tarred by a generalization, take an "if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it" approach. It's AMAZING how much easier this makes it for me as a straight white male to not be set off by a conversation. Understand that the generalization may be broad, but it exists for a reason. Seek to understand the reason rather than to reflexively defend yourself.
I personally don't care if anyone thinks I'm a dude online most the time, but it is frustrating as fuck when I'm getting dismissed with the accusation of 'white knighting' when I'm a woman. So I'm in favor of this.
Which is asking a lot of some men here, sad to say.
Era just needs to step it up and not worry about being too far left with this both sides has an arugement shit. The moderation is a big problem, as noted in this thread and discussions I've had outside of Era with irl friends who post here and were also GAF members.
But you are ignoring that there is nuance to many discussions. Blatant sexism like woman shouldn't be in BFV gets banned. The Jessica Price situation however was a topic with a lot to discuss and various stances on whether the firing was right, whether it was right given the existence of GG, whether other means of punishment would have been better etc.
I also don't think White Supremecy is allowed here. Some users may simple got lucky
If it is a clearly offensive post then it obviously should be banned even if worded nicely but sometimes there may also be a post you have more of a problem with than others at which point ignoring said user may be the way to go and if said user goes too far he will get the ban for a later post. As happens from time to time. A questionable post that can be discussed or debated with and as the conversation goes on the user goes too far and gets banned. If said user has a history of this then hand out a harsher ban sooner
As was brought up earlier I think an option to auto hide banned users and maybe put them on your ignore list if they got banned for certain things would probably do a lot in allowing users to avoid other posters they know they don't want to engage with
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I'm not a fan of poking moderators for bannings.
GAF bannings were actually worse. I prefer Era's chances.
Like seriously next time some shithead goes and basically talk for me while ignoring what I have to say directly while talking to me is probably when I stop engaging the place.
You may love a good brick wall but I don't think that why people are here.
I'm reading through this thread to get more perspective but the premise came as quite a surprise. Reset Era always seemed like the most respectful and progressive place I have ever encountered on the internet. I will be keeping my eyes open in case I've been ignorant to the things called out.
Isn't it telling how every thread we've had on this where the message of the OP is pretty much "don't be a prick to women" ends up having the most pages because people seriously feel the need to dispute that kind of message.
Personally, I'm tired of seeing blatant sexist and racist posts with a (user banned: 5 days) with some message about the poster showing a similar pattern of behavior in the past.
WHY THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE STILL HERE? Where are the perma-bans? Why are the mods not taking these people off the board and instead just putting them in what essentially is a time out?
WHY THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE STILL HERE? Where are the perma-bans? Why are the mods not taking these people off the board and instead just putting them in what essentially is a time out?
There are plenty of perma bans. Some even in this very thread. Maybe your definition of "blatant" differs from mine, but the really egregious examples of bigotry are typically insta-perma bans.
Because for some reason Era fears being too far left, which is why the both sides thing has been brought up many times. GAF was very far left, and obviously some people have a problem with that, but it was for the best.
Now you just have people avoiding participating on Era because of this.
I feel like "both sides" nonsense gets called out every single time it comes up in the threads I visit and is warned/banned if the person keeps it up.
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