Ah shit yeah my bad, it's right next to the permalink haha
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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I'm sorry if you can't see the issue with being suspicious going all "there's guys who don't feel safe expressing their opinions" without expressing what opinion or who the people are,
all I can say that it's similar to JAQing.
If you don't want to be misinterpreted be clear enough to leave no ambiguity.
You can't have a conversation based on vague stuff and by the 50th time you see the behavior you're kind of wired to see a pattern anyway.
Do you not know how dismissive you sound?
We have women telling us era is making them uncomfortable and you're basically calling them hysterical. No one said this place was full of alt-right lurkers.
Which is made funnier because you don't people dismissing you as a bigot for having the "wrong" opinion
I agree that you can't have an effective conversation when talking in vague generalities (I've said the same thing a couple of times in this very thread), but I can't get behind your desire to assume the worst in people if they don't meet your personal threshold on specifics. Dismissing them is one thing, but you don't have to make declarative statements about what they really meant.
As an aside, this is the first time I've seen "JAQing" used and I absolutely love it. The possibilities for that term are endless.
I really don't, just to be clear. Just wanted to bring across that from the other side, it's just so frustrating to just hear "calm down, it's not as bad" always.
In the current political climate, women hear this a lot - usually accompanied with nebulous claims of censorship, and an urge for women to just be more civil, more polite, more silent.
I'm saying this just to show you why you got a bad reaction by some. It's less thinking automatically badly of everyone else, and more of patterns. If one reads the "females" thread, that specific pattern is visible several times.
I mean, that thread had a joker try "but you have female in your profile" as a gotcha. It was pretty bad.
(Also, just since I'm a bit confused: What of the "see anything as bigotry" you mentioned is seen as bigotry here, but isn't actually? I missed that one earlier. Silly me.)
Is assuming the worst and trying to entrap people not the definition of bad faith posting (as outlined in the ToS)? To me, it seems like shit posting to trawl around, assume the worst, and obligate everyone to defend themselves against it.
Bigots / idiots end up revealing themselves anyways within a few posts without requiring everyone to prove their good faith constantly.
I completely disagree. It's a message board. There is usually ample room for interpretation / misinterpretation, since we're communicating with people we don't know via only text.
Sorry but after some interactions here I'm kinda done assuming the best of people in discussions here.
JAQing is great, it gets the point across at how BS the behavior is.
As an aside I absolutely love the way nouns can so easily become verbs in english.
There's always room for interpretations but when you're being as vague as this, might as well post a gif meme it's about as constructive.
Not to moderation they don't. so many avoid making actionable posts until they're pressed on what they said.
Dunno but vague empty insinuations with a refusal to follow up certainly is.
That's a good point in terms of the expectation of moderation also. When a post is vague it is possible that what is being assumed about the statement maybe isn't there. On the other hand, it can be exhausting and time consuming to engage and suss out what is meant in every situation if those making the vague posts are being defensive or evasive about explaining their statements. Not saying you're doing this here. This is just a hypothetical illustration. It seems better that a clear indication of violation is made before strong moderator action is taken. This shouldn't discourage reports, however. Warnings or conversational intervention from moderators may help in these instances if it's not too burdensome.
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There are some statements being made about minorities in relation to these concerns and would like to contribute along those lines.
As a member of various minorities I've witnessed and encountered some problems. The one time I had to report an issue the report was initially dismissed. After escalating my complaint and raising the issue with the admins my concern was addressed satisfactorily.
More directly related to the issue of the OP and of a personal failure that may be relevant: As a member of a religious minority I was recently attacked for my beliefs in a thread where I was celebrating the elevation of woman in a popular song as it relates to my spirituality. My beliefs were almost immediately attacked but it seemed better at the time to to defend myself. Whether successful or not that doesn't matter. The failure is that by not reporting their attack on me it leaves those that may be attacked by the same users in the future vulnerable. If I had reported it, even without an expectation of action, it would at least give the moderators a background so that if in the future these individuals make another attack on myself or a different user there is a known history.
I did politely ask for clarification and I kind of feel like I've been ignored, what can ya do
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissive and condescending attitude towards sensitive issues.
I know you ladies are using this thread to try stand on a stool and be heard over the crowd, and I hope you don't think this me trying to kick the stool out from under you. But I think while you're telling people to stop and think about your unique perspective, you can be quick to dismiss any others from all over the world. America = The World is a real perspective bias that happens across much of the english speaking parts of the internet. This of course shouldn't dictate what you have to permit however. If you're making a garden for yourselves you're entiteled to prune any buds you need to, and rip out any weeds.
I think the solution may just call for a slight attitude adjustment. I can only imagine the mountains of shit you must have to put up with on regular basis, but while you have your arms up in a cage like a seasoned pugalist should, it may be obscuring a part of your view. You may not be seeing how the simple framing of how you issue bans may be causing anxiety.
I've lurked here and at the old place for years and posted maybe a little over 300 times so I'm no loss to the community if I have to be banned to foster a better environment for the rest of you who need it more.
But it would make the world of difference for my, and most observers perspectives, if I heard "Sorry fella, this is a private club and you don't meet the dress code, let me show you the door and best of luck elsewhere!" instead of "Good god, you're much too evil to be here, fuck off and burn in hell forever!".
I think the latter causes alot of the bristling and pushback, whereas the former, most reasonable people could accept a little more gracefully.
Sure some people will still try to cause a fuss but that's just the differnce between the weeds and the buds.
I think the solution may just call for a slight attitude adjustment. I can only imagine the mountains of shit you must have to put up with on regular basis, but while you have your arms up in a cage like a seasoned pugalist should, it may be obscuring a part of your view. You may not be seeing how the simple framing of how you issue bans may be causing anxiety.
I've lurked here and at the old place for years and posted maybe a little over 300 times so I'm no loss to the community if I have to be banned to foster a better environment for the rest of you who need it more.
But it would make the world of difference for my, and most observers perspectives, if I heard "Sorry fella, this is a private club and you don't meet the dress code, let me show you the door and best of luck elsewhere!" instead of "Good god, you're much too evil to be here, fuck off and burn in hell forever!".
I think the latter causes alot of the bristling and pushback, whereas the former, most reasonable people could accept a little more gracefully.
Sure some people will still try to cause a fuss but that's just the differnce between the weeds and the buds.
Naw. People get maddd defensive when others questions them. Besides, I don't think the majority of people want a "private club go away," but rather "we want you here, but can you please respect the dress code by changing?"
Also I don't know who this is directed to. Can you clarify? I don't mean this in a passive aggressive way either... for clarification.
You just decried the use of vagueness and ambiguities a few posts ago and yet you point me to a thread with over 1,000 posts and expect me to know which interactions to which you are referring? I could probably guess which ones you're talking about, but how is this not the exact same thing as Skyrim? I can't know for certain which interactions you're talking about that lead you to being "done."
Furthermore, unless Skyrim posted similar generalities in there, why would you take the actions of others from a completely separate thread and apply them to your judgment of Skyrim's character and intentions? Era is not some monolithic entity or "hivemind" and I would argue that this very thread demonstrates that. Treating people like individuals is absolutely part of not being a dick.
You misunderstand,
I'm pointing at the thread because it's the whole thread.
the "dress code" is not being a fucking asshole. HOW HARD IS THAT.
The fact that this statement - the assumption that in a civil discourse the other party isn't part of some larger plot specifically to fuck with you being the underlying principle of civilised discourse - was met with hostility as to what you 'really mean' and how you shouldn't be trying to 'silence others experience' is pretty telling.
There's no way to understand what you meant. There are all kinds of takes even in the first few pages in that thread and people arguing with each other. How can I know which posts in there lead to you being "done?"
You're the one demanding more moderation on a forum that already has intense moderation AND the ability to block users at your leisure. Yet you're claiming this forum is a "capitalist bubble", as if we're oh so close minded. You dont see the contradiction?
And yes I do have an interest in multiple opinions. When someone here says something I disagree with, including harsh criticism directed towards me, I dont report them, ignore them, or reply with useless reactions like "this post is uh...wow. Huh." lol
How is that post not telling women they need to calm down in the context of this thread?
Just to interject here, but are you sure all of those complaining are, in fact, from America? Are you absolutely sure you did not just dismiss many complaints by conflating it all to some American(TM) opinion that is somehow only valid and applicable to the United States?
I'm for example not, nor am I a native speaker of English. Juuuust saying.
Bold for emphasis mine, because I don't even know how to touch this. Wha, huh? Do you happen to be ESL? I can see someone writing that if their grasp on English isn't perfect, because if not, uhm. Yikes?
This is one of the few threads about moderation that isn't insta-locked and told to take it to PM. From the posts he has made he is talking about moderation and the community in general and not telling women to shut up by saying that maybe people are a little trigger happy to assume the worst of intentions here.
On a more serious note, if more moderation is required to make a more comfortable community, I don't see what the issue with that is.
Cultural differences effect language and humour to a huge degree, whats's an unforgivable sin to hear in some places is practically a term of endearment in others for instance.
Respect for others and an intolerance towards bigotry can and should be a universal trait. It's also not something that can just be chalked down to cultural differences, as there are movements against bigotry all around the world.
Okay, but what am I assuming exactly? Their comment explicitly tells people to "calm down", those are their own words. They may not have ban intentions, but we also do not need to be telling women to calm down in a thread where they are addressing their concerns. Would you agree?
I think you are trying to kick the stool out, because you are. Your whole solution is victim blaming. Your are blaming women for the backlash they receive from being bullied and silenced. If only us ladies would work harder to coddle our bullies feelings, then maybe men would take us seriously.
Seriously, you are not even trying to imagine who women and minorities feel dismissed and ostracized with writing like that.
But dress codes are... when in doubt, overdress, not underdress. So, similarly, just because culturally you think it's okay to (for example) use your fingers to pull your eyes back into slits (as seen in a lot of Hispanic/South American/etc photos mocking Asians), doesn't mean that you can use that defense when someone from another country is like, wow that's fucked up can you not. Or in Europe with Zierge Piest (sp) day or whatever... it's like, hey, maybe you should play it safe.
In relation to women- same idea. If you post something that you think is "okay" here, and you're met with a strong reaction that it's not... then just go with it's not. Do that other shit in your own time. What's the worst that will happen? No one's ever been offended by being respected TOO much.
It's like the environment. Oh no, what if climate change is a hoax and we made the world better for nothing? Same deal - oh no, you don't get to joke/say shit that's acceptable in your culture, you've made the forum a more accepting and respectful place for nothing!
Ok, as an example if the word "cunt" is part of the casual lexicon in my part of the world, how would you judge us as people for using it at large, even if you decide to have zero tolerance for it here?
And again I'm only offering a suggestion from where I'm standing, I'm not insisting anyone has to accept it.
And again I'm only offering a suggestion from where I'm standing, I'm not insisting anyone has to accept it.
I think this is extremely hypocritical behavior on your behalf.
You obviously know there is a cultural difference so why would you use it? Do you have any examples that are not hypothetical?
yep
man I almost asked you if you just wanted to say cunt and decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. literally no one in this thread is complaining about that word
edit: ftr I do have an issue with the word and sideeye people who say it completely is separated from misogynistic connotations but do understand how its used and don't get mad at people who use it. That said its small beans compared to the things that the thread is about and this is a bit of a distraction from actual issues
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Hmm, I take your point and really don't mean to do that, if that's how it's coming across then I'm sorry.
You clearly missed our fucking insane & somewhat embarrassing World Cup thread(s) recently!
"Cunt" was thrown in every other post.
How many people sincerely are unaware that cunt refers to the vagina? If you don't know that, then fine, but I doubt that most people who use it aren't aware of that.
Ladies I'd prefer you be more empathetic and let me call you a cunt without you bringing in your American baggage about the word.
Because when I say folks should respect different cultures I mean you ladies should respect mine while I proclaim yours as American centric selfishism
Ps dunno if you noticed but cunt is like the only slur (which it is in North America) that is tolerated freely here... precisely because of the UK difference.
As a French minority, why the fuck wouldn't I react negatively about a whole thread dedicated to a comedian basically denying us our identity and all the responses basically explaining to us how we should feel about it?
Again literally everything about this thread is reason enough for me to sideeye half of the forum already.
I was absolutely not being vague here, it's pretty damn crystal clear.
So in your part of the world, it is acceptable for men to be derogatory towards women. And you want American women think of how their words affect you as a man, while want to call women cunts without any repercussions? Oh, how oppressive it must be for you to treat women as equals! /s
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I rarely click on topics like the 'don't call women females' thread because it always seems like something that I already understood or took as obvious. The thread itself usually only has 2 types of posts; posts that disagree for terrible reasons and posts trying to explain to the first type how wrong they are. I really have no desire to read through either of those kinds of posts or join in making them, and I imagine that more of the forum is closer to me than the posters who disagree with the thread premise. So I bet if you're the kind of brave soul who makes OPs about important topics like that and just keep seeing them flooded by vitriol and back and forth on subjects that are in no way really up for debate that it feels like you're standing alone on the forum against a tide of bullshit, but I assure you based on other forums I have been on, this one is very much on your side as a whole. And if the thread educates 1 person or gets 1 goon who wasn't subtle enough with their bigotry banned, then it was worth the time making it.
There are plenty of posts in there agreeing with you, so it can't be the whole thread as you claimed.
You must love to generalize if the behavior of a few hundred (at most) posters in that thread is enough for you to sideeye tens of thousands.
Okay, I guess. But is there really not a better way to weed out bigots than junking up threads by assuming the worst about every poster? It derails threads constantly.
The threads I learn the most from on ERA are the ones where (almost) everyone* engages in good faith and exchanges perspectives without it devolving into constant strawmen/ assumptions / etc.
*exempting trolls / bigots, obviously. They get banned.
You're right, and I appreciate your direct, drama-free approach. I missed it before.
Imagine seeing this title and thinking I know I need to talk down to women for being too American centric for not liking being called a cunt.
Cunt, pussy, bitch, and dick are gendered insults that really need to start being looked at a bit more imo.
Same with any insult that uses race or gender. I also happen to side eye mongoloid for the same reason.
I get that the urge to "help" is very strong but it's imperative that you, if you're male, resist it, because without a very high IQ and an understanding of feminism and sociology you come off as patronizing, condescending, and generally a busybody telling people how they should feel instead of listening to how people feel and reflecting on what you need to change in yourself.
It is almost never worth it, no matter how innocuous your intentions may seem to you.
It is almost never worth it, no matter how innocuous your intentions may seem to you.
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