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imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
UPDATE 12/5/17:

Rep. Lee is moving forward with his legislation plans, prohibiting the sale of games with loot boxes to minors:

The video lays out the basics of what Lee has in mind, which includes prohibiting the sale of videogames containing "gambling mechanisms" to anyone under the age of 21. That restriction would cover any situation in which players are purchasing a "percentage chance" to get an in-game item, rather than the item itself, and would apply not just to games sold at retail but also those available via digital distribution channels like Steam and GOG—a relevant point because ESRB ratings are not mandatory for digital storefronts.

Lee also expresses concern about game publishers who adjust the odds of various items dropping in loot boxes in order to take advantage of people who really want them. He acknowledges that his information is third-hand and unverified (and I've only ever heard of the opposite happening, in the form of "pity timers" that increase the odds of a good drop the longer a person goes without one), but nonetheless does a pretty good job of making it sound like an all-but-established fact.

"Once the algorithm identifies a player who's likely to keep spending money to buy that one 'unicorn thing' that they're after ... then they lower the odds and then you keep spending more," he says in the video. "It's absolutely unethical and unfair."

As a result, he's also seeking an "accountability piece" of legislation to ensure that behind-the-scenes drop-rate shenanigans doesn't happen, which would presumably require publishers to reveal loot box drop rates odds—something similar to the step taken late last year by China.

Video in question:



Original Post:

Things Are Coming to a Head Quickly


All it takes is enough headlines for lawmakers to notice. They've noticed. Today I read that Belgium declares it wants loot boxes declared as gambling, and wants them banned in Europe. Before you scoff at a single example from Europe, we now have the U.S. State of Hawaii initiating an investigation into predatory practices at EA, precipitated by the headlines Battlefront II has been making.

Once enough dollars are at stake and enough people are aggravated, the hackles are up. Microtransactions, as many have pointed out, have been extremely successful. Success is a double-edged coin. With a massive flood of new revenue coming in based on, essentially, a different way of packaging and selling the same content amount going out, this should have been expected. Scrutiny.

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Loot boxes, as a general rule, are not gambling as currently legally defined. I ought to know, I work in the very regulated actual-gambling industry. Ratings organizations have hidden behind this distinction long enough for it to lose meaning in the general public. The distinction that defines gambling is the ability to cash out, to win real appreciable value for your bet. It is, in fact, the ability for large amounts of money to be moved both in and out of casinos that has made up of the bulk of federal regulatory activity we have dealt and complied with in the past decade-plus: regulations designed to detect and report possible money laundering.

Games have not been immune from these concerns, but I'm not educated as to whether Chinese WOW gold farms would have been an efficient and effective means of laundering money, even with a multiple-year crackdown on casino money laundering through Macau. The only loot box system that has ever presented these concerns have been those in Valve's Steam economy, which is why with the CSGO Lotto crud from earlier this year, the state of Washington's Gaming (i.e. Gambling) Commission had to issue them a cease-and-desist, to force them to enforce their own account trading API policies. This was the most comparable to real gambling loot boxes ever got, because through a complicated set of 3rd party hoops, one could cash out.

skingambling.jpg


Your local government, your state government, your small country among the EU, these entities are moving to express concerns about the anti-consumer effects of loot boxes. Large federal entities will not care, becuase they are focused on money laundering, unless the local governments can make this a bellweather issue. That day is coming.

Get in Front, Define the Terms

It doesn't have to be gambling to be regulated. The last time the video game industry faced possible regulation it was over content. Seven years ago the video game industry faced a regulatory challenge, as California Senator Leland Yee helped spearhead and pass a law banning the sale of violent video games to people under 18. This case was taken all the way to the supreme court, where games were granted the status of protected First Amendment speech, protected from censorship by the government.

It was partially the industry's willingness to self-regulate that enabled this result.

This sort of regulation of content sale by governmental entities had (largely) been avoided by the movie industry via self-regulation. The MPAA was formed and movies were submitted for rating. In the 90's video games faced controversy and possibly regulation at the urging of Senator Joseph Lieberman, famously reacting on the senate floor to the (now remastered!) FMV game Night Trap. At that time, the video game industry aped the efforts of the movie industry, forming the ESA and the ESRB and developing a ratings system to inform parents of what sort of content they were buying for their kids. Please pardon me in that I am not educated as to the origins of the PEGI system, or of Australia's ratings board, etc.

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I assume their gist also is: these ratings agencies arose because of a clear need. There was a need to assure both parents and lawmakers that the industry was up front. The video game industry needed to convince the world it was not trying to slip objectionable content into something ostensibly for kids. Arguably, the biggest offender in this regard in my lifetime is Steven Spielberg, who single-handedly created the PG-13 rating by showing a man's still-beating heart torn from his chest in a rated PG movie. And it turned out that Senator Yee himself contained a fair amount of obectionable content, considering he was found guilty of corruption and conspiracy in the sale of illegal firearms, but I digress...

My point is: this need has arisen once again. The need to take action before it is taken upon you. The need to convince the world you are not trying to slip predatory revenue models into games that ostensibly have a single price tag, and, again, may ostensibly be for kids.

The Real Issue is Up-Front Pricing

You can play poker right now, or your favorite actual-slot-machine-from-a-real-casino, for meaningless Space Bux, all from within data-connected Facebook, within a browser window, with no ratings board warning of any kind. You can even dump your own real money into any of these "social gaming" sites to buy said Space Bux. This has all been around for years, and nobody gives a crap.

DoubleDownCasino.jpg


My first simulated gambling experience was Atari 2600 Casino and Atari 2600 Slot Machine, when I was like eight. I learned the games, won and lost Space Bux. No one gave a crap about simulated gambling. If anything, simulated gambling is almost the opposite of what's going on: no matter how rich you are or how much money you bring, you cannot buy the luck. You may be able to fund higher bets, take greater risks, win bigger jackpots when you hit, but every gambler stepping up to a slot machine has the same odds per spin as any other. You cannot buy an advantage.

Obviously it is the pay-to-win mechanics that were present in Star Wars: Battlefront II that has set off this firestorm of media attention, that we have been hearing of for the past few weeks. Gamers have recognized that their shooter has been horribly crossbred with a collectible card game, allowing gameplay advantages to now be at the behest of the ubiquitous loot box system. And this attempt by EA was both underhanded and deceptive. Hey, collectible cards and CCGs wear their flaws on their sleeve. They didn't Trojan Horse their way into a Star Wars branded sequel that lacked the revenue mechanics in its predecessor.

battlefront-2-vader-620x328.jpg


But parents and lawmakers don't care about how fair your game is, or if your microtransactions are for cosmetic items or gameplay ones--if the end result is kids are still obsessed with the revenue system and constantly asking to spend on it. Parents and lawmakers only care about the up front pricing and nature of these models.

This is evidenced by the focus of FTC regulation on the mobile industry, where the only thing anyone was concerned with was a lack of up-front pricing and the presence of controls for parent's oversight of their kids purchases of microtransactions (so far). And even at that, "Offers In-App Purchases" was a warning only added after Google was sued and settled, Apple got a class-action and settled, and Amazon got the same lawsuit from the FTC.

The ESRB and these other ratings boards can decide their future relevancy in their historical function of informing parents and consumers, admittedly with shockingly pointless results, since so many parents ignore content ratings. But they serve as protection for the industry, who can at least state that with the product clearly marked, the onus of what a child consumes and responds to is on the parents, and the industry is not trying to sneak anything into the package a parent would not want.

PEGI and ESRB have been clear that loot boxes are not gambling, and why they consider it so. But they haven't been clear as to why they don't consider them a new form of possibly-predatory business model in games that parents might want to know about, considering the number of people (gamers themselves, even, who were mostly on the same page about 1st amendment protected content in games) expressing concern about them.

So... now's the window. Now's the chance, to put something on the box and decide your label for the warning as opposed to letting it be determined for you. I have a suggestion. It may not be the best term to use, but I for one favor it as a tribute to that great work by Hideo Kojima, unfairly delisted off the face of the Earth...

pt.png


Our secret wink-wink is that every game with this on the box is a Playable Teaser for the actual revenue model.

A Taste of Our Regulated World

I mentioned earlier that I work in the casino industry. People have a lot of misconceptions about how this industry works, fed by a fair amount of superstition, as well. People like to think that casino managers have little dials or buttons in the back room, directly controlling the amount of luck available to our machines at any given time. People like to believe our loyalty cards somehow convey their personal information to the slot machine logic itself, switching to "lose mode" once the patsy has been identified. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

There's almost nothing more secure and scrutinized in a casino than a machine's game logic. Slot/pachinko machine manufacturers have some names in common with the games industry: Konami, Sammy. Oddly a few names that have left the apparently hugely burdensome world of video games themselves: Williams, Bally... Konami? These manufacturers have to submit all their game logic for complete review and real-world testing before they can release a new product. This process can take months, and can vary from state to state, as each state may have its own review period, or specific requirements for testing. Heck, I once watched Aristocrat (an Australia-based manufacturer, with offices in NA of course) go back and forth my state's gaming division for eighteen months about a set of canned financial reports that the agency wanted tailored just so... before the manufacturer could release a version upgrade for its main back-end slot system.

konamihome.jpg


Game logic gets rejected for approval quite often, sometimes even after the fact upon further testing and investigation. At these points, casinos are called upon to remain compliant by updating all machines, which in our non-server-based jurisdiction means a physical visit and chip replacement on each one. Failure to comply by deadline (often discovered by surprise gaming agent inspection) can lead to significant fines being leveraged against the casino for running the wrong game software.

All the game logic testing goes through one place. Gaming Labs International is the name of the outfit in the U.S. They got a good gig going, and I'm not saying its easy work. Just that they have the market cornered, as regulatory agencies tend to limit access to trusted, vetted people.

Speaking of which, I am vetted and licensed. Anyone working with any gaming funds in any of these casinos, or working in casino support roles with data access, or manufacturer reps and vendors from other states who sometimes work here, have to submit for state licensing. Depending on the type of license you can pay from $200 to $1800 to have the state conduct a background check on you for any past incidences of felony, fraud, or government-owed money, and then a certain amount to renew every two years.

If you don't pass the check, you're not working in that industry, in that state. Your license can also be individually revoked for infractions such as failing to catch an underaged patron, overserving alcohol, etc.

This little taste is just the tip of the iceberg. Most publicly-traded gaming companies are more than familiar with intense regulation since Sarbanes-Oxley came into effect, but their lobbying arm, the ESRB, isn't showing enough concern, to my mind, of all the regulatory bottlenecks and other entities game makers will have to deal with should regulation of their game logic come into play. Here's a fun diversion, google and read some of the articles about the geofencing technology manufacturers have had to implement and deploy in the states that have legalized online sports betting to ensure the bets are only coming from people in that state. It's insane what they've spent to meet that requirement, even as we all know its effectiveness can never be 100 percent.

Thirty years ago, there were two states in the U.S. where gambling was legal, Nevada and New Jersey, and who thus had regulatory agencies in their state government, already with "Gaming" right in their names (since it's industry's agreed-upon euphemism for gambling). Now, nearly every state in the U.S. has a "Gaming Commission" with an associated budget and agenda.

uscasinos2017.jpg


Why not do the smart thing: to clean up your own back yard and stay out of their crosshairs?

Well, Maybe, But Not Overwatch, Right?

Look, parents and lawmakers are never really going to care about pay-to-win because the value of "winning" that we perceive in our games has no actual real world value to them. Their concern is the unlocking available within the game, without regard for distinctions of cosmetic-only, and its level of impact on people outside the game. Mobile game platforms were forced to enact controls not because games became crappy pay-to-win grindfests on mobile, but because they were not upfront about their internal marketplaces, and they didn't have sufficient parental warnings and controls in place.

But even beyond this, games that have replaced their progression economies with loot box systems have also replaced a portion of their content that conveyed interaction with an economy, with interaction with an entirely new and different sort of in-game economy. Progression mechanisms that used to involve and, in effect, teach systems of earning/saving/buying upgrades and collectibles have been replaced with random number generator loot box mechanisms, with a timesink grind to achieve desired results/upgrades from those systems as a result of play. This is regardless of pay-to-win effect. The player is often now forced into a situation where unlocking desired collectibles in a game, even a full-priced one, is a choice between burning all your time on a hopeless grind, or having the real-world money to buy progress in that unlocking.

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This disparity in achievable results and how they are accomplished now both reflects and reinforces a society marked by massive economic disparity. Regular people "get lucky" with reality TV show competitions or Shark Tank business ideas, and the concept of a slow achievable progression through a game, and perhaps through life itself, through steady application of labor is becoming foreign to the Rated T and under games our children are playing. The very basic concepts of work-reward, that a parent may have strong feelings about teaching, is being transformed.

Will Overwatch breed a new generation of gamblers? I don't think so. But do parents deserve to be told about the presence of paid or random progress towards a game's unlocks? I do think so.

Apparently, so do others.

lootboxes.jpg



Finally, Cash Out Ain't What It Used To Be

What if you can only cash out in Bitcoin? As the walls and distinctions between real and virtual property continue to diminish, the distinction of "cash out" loses meaning. If our world is indeed headed into a crapper of environmental disaster and social unrest, I can see people's virtual worlds becoming more preferred, and their virtual possessions having more meaning to them than their meatspace things. Is not theft of data a crime? This "cash out" gambling cover is only going to last so long, and that Hawaii representative has already shown himself smart enough not to mention gambling by name but rather by way of comparison of psychological influences.

The longer the self-regulating forces hide behind the cash out distinction as the reason to ignore these developments, the more they risk being accused of secretly advocating and tolerating business practices that may are already being labelled as predatory.

*Thanks for reading this whole thing if you did, I had a lot of thoughts I compiled from various lost discussions in some other location. ;)
 
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nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,675
It's too late imo. They had a chance and they didn't consider it gambling. Now the gov't has to do their job for them.
 
OP
OP
imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
It's too late imo. They had a chance and they didn't consider it gambling. Now the gov't has to do their job for them.

I hope it's not. Regulation is onerous, as I tried to convey. It should be reserved for industries like mine, who have no choice but to court it.

Free speech was defensible in court. Selling a hidden bill of goods to kids disguised as something else will not be.
 
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JazzmanZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,362
Great read! I do agree the government might end up making things messier, but hopefully game companies like EA are hearing the message and massively cutting back on this crap
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,150
I get that gambling regulation is headache for people in the industry but its also extremely necessary for the very reasons you seem to find it bothersome. As far as the whole slippery slope argument about regulation in video games go I'll just quote a post I made earlier in the Hawaii thread.

The people saying the regulation of games will lead to some sort of slippery slope are missing what is happening here. This isn't so much a start to the regulation of games as it is an update to outdated existing gambling regulations to keep up with new gambling methodology in the modern age. Any legislation would apply to all digital/online transactions and monetization schemes not just games. So basically unless you are against government regulation of gambling (which I find it hard to believe anyone is) then there is absolutely no grounds to oppose such a measure. Personally I'd say an update to the regulatory laws for gambling is LONG overdue as its been tiptoed around constantly since the dawn of internet commerce.

The gambling regulations are simply outdated and as such don't apply to much of the actual gambling going on in the modern age. The fact that much of this gambling is associated with online video games of one kind or another should not exempt them form the same levels of scrutiny and supervision that any other less modern form of gambling is subject to. I doubt you'll find anyone who doesn't think that gambling in any form should not be regulated the problem is that the definition is woefully outdated so much of the modern practices of gambling are not covered under the already established regulations. In my opinion we just need to update the laws and regulations defining what gambling is in the modern age to prevent companies dancing around it to avoid said regulation and enforce these regulations as a standard across the board for anyone attempting to introduce gambling mechanics for real money of any kind.
 

ShinkuTachi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,873
I'm just going to quote my post from the other thread on this, because I think it applies just as well here:

I think it's too late. The games industry and the ratings boards are entirely at fault on this one, since they didn't take the opportunity to regulate themselves when they had the chance. Now, the government needs to get involved. This is one of the reasons why we have governing bodies, to deal with this kind of stuff when an industry is unwilling to regulate itself.
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
I doubt it will happen with the current US government considering how much they hate regulations. That might give the games industry a bit of time to self-regulate itself.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
The people on ResetEra who think government regulation is now a foregone conclusion based on the Hawaii and Belgium developments are in for a rude awakening.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,233
I do think it's too late now.

All that had to happen was one pub to get too greedy and the topic to reach mainstream.

I imagine every pub selling cosmetics via lootboxes will be furious with EA but this industry has shown incapable of self regulating on these topics.

I'd argue against a complete ban but at this point i don't think the industry is capable to regulate themselves because their greed trumps everything.
 

Mr G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
219
Netherlands
Well written piece, but i think it's too late.
They had a long time to regulate this but they did nothing now the government steps in.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
I doubt it will happen with the current US government considering how much they hate regulations. That might give the games industry a bit of time to self-regulate itself.
If you can slap "But what about the children?" on an issue, you'd be amazed what you can get ostensibly anti-regulation politicians to support.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,807
Fucking hell ERA this is what I come here for. Absolutely astounding job on that post, OP. Really well done.
 

Deku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
242
Great post. It's always enlightening learning about something from someone inside the industry rather than hot takes.

I'm hoping self regulation or fear of public backlash will help curve some of these practices.
 

Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,801
It's gonna happen for sure. The industry would much rather self-regulate and lose out on potential profits than have to lobby the government in the face of new legislation.
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
Good riddance. This had to happen at some point, a ticking bomb. This industry would never regulate itself when millions of dollars were being cashed in with every AAA release. It is what it is now, for better or worse, a necessary evil.
 

Tanuto

Member
Nov 6, 2017
115
The last thing I want is for the government to regulate my hobby.

(Great read! I love reading posts that people put effort into researching and writing.)
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
It would be entertaining to see them try to self regulate. Organizations created by the companies who have caused this problem trying to get themselves to not be greedy. Trying to not milk every possible dollar out of a potential customer.

You may as well ask a crack head to ween himself off of crack with no assistance.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,874
Columbia, SC
The reason why the government can even set foot in this area at all because the industry itself failed to do so for far too long in the first place. The ESRB and other bodies like them should have when this was kicking off in the mobile space years ago.
 

Stider

Member
Oct 25, 2017
511
One of the scary things imo about this situation and the mainstream attention it is getting is that if it was another EA game I don't think it would've gotten anywhere near the amount of attention on this situation as it has which comes down to the Star Wars IP.
 

NepsKnight

Member
Nov 7, 2017
70
Planeptune
The ESRB was founded to rate the content in video games so parent had an idea of what was in the games their kids were playing. It was never designed to regulate said content, so I'm not sure that would be the body to handle this. I do agree that the industry needs to regulate itself here before governments get involved and make a real mess.
 
OP
OP
imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Well I sent Rep. Lee a reddit message asking him if he thought there was room for the self-regulatory boards to step in, but I can already guess his answer.

I get that gambling regulation is headache for people in the industry but its also extremely necessary for the very reasons you seem to find it bothersome. As far as the whole slippery slope argument about regulation in video games go I'll just quote a post I made earlier in the Hawaii thread.

Please don't misunderstand me, I completely believe that not only should my industry remain thoroughly regulated, but that it should remain limited to brick-and-mortar locations to help enforce that regulation. We offer a product like alcohol, to which people can easily become addicted.

Also like alcohol, plenty of people can responsibly enjoy our product, and so I am also glad I live in a state which allows it. Hawaii, as you might have surmised, does not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fucking hell ERA this is what I come here for. Absolutely astounding job on that post, OP. Really well done.

Thanks for the compliments folks. My pleasure. :)
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,150
Well I sent Rep. Lee a reddit message asking him if he thought there was room for the self-regulatory boards to step in, but I can already guess his answer.



Please don't misunderstand me, I completely believe that not only should my industry remain thoroughly regulated, but that it should remain limited to brick-and-mortar locations to help enforce that regulation. We offer a product like alcohol, to which people can easily become addicted.

Also like alcohol, plenty of people can responsibly enjoy our product, and so I am also glad I live in a state which allows it. Hawaii, as you might have surmised, does not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So if you agree that gambling should be heavily regulated why then argue against the regulation of these new forms of gambling that can be just as if not even more addictive and devastating especially given the lack of an age requirement to participate in them? I get it that as it is currently defined these new systems are not technically gambling but they are exploiting the same sorts of behaviors and psychological tendencies that standard gambling does for profit so its basically gambling in everything but the strictest legal definition IMO. So why then argue about semantics instead of updating said legal definition to include these new forms under the legal definition?
 

rocket

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,306
ESRB is basically owned by ESA with member's such as EA and Konami; These are the people that said they are doing you a "favor" for putting lootbox and mtx in your $60 retail game so they don't have to raise prices on ya....

Basically you are asking NRA to implement gun control.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
It might be a bit too late. Belgium is already pushing for an EU-wide ban on loot boxes. But let's be honest, would it be a bad thing? Loot boxes are something the industry can easily live without.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,941
I guess I didn't really think about it before, but it's kind of insane that some of the most profitable mobile games at the moment are literally casino games, but without the added benefit of potentially making money.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,533
Craziest thing is even something like just giving games with lootboxes a PEGI/USK rating of 18 which is the normal rating and kinda equivalent to an M rating in Europe might be enough or at least a good start to minimize any government regulation. Game with an 18 rating is not a game for kids so you avoid the "making kids addicted to gambling" stuff. Add a label about addiction and gambling on it aswell

Obviously this might not be enough in the US as a M rating is just 17+ and not a game clearly meant for adults.
 
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hitmon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,404
I found that insightful, thank you. It will be interesting to see the fallout if regulations are implemented and enforced.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
Within capitalism companies will always put profits ahead of ethics. Asking for self-regulation is naive and shortsighted, and it ignores the many past instances of where companies do everything in their power to maintain growth and profits (due to capitalism) at the expense of the well being of others.

I agree that companies could've avoided all of this, but really, what company wouldn't do all of this in order to increase revenue and profits? If they didn't commit to loot boxes and gambling mdchnaics, their stock would drop and be considered incompetent by shareholders.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
Good long and well elucidated post. I think it gives a clear practical reason why the industry should self-regulate.

It's just.. it's the wrong reason?

(Now disclaimer I don't like the casino industry and I could see how your opinion to it is very differently. I like self determination and the ideas of casinos. It's just that whenever I'm in one I can't shake the feeling it's mostly profiting off exploiting addicts.)

The more corporate apologism I read here, it doesn't seem to be that gamers (Americans?) fear government, it's that they fear accountability. Father state's raison d'etre is not to patronize and annoy, it's to set moral boundaries. The reason companies should not want to cross moral boundaries is not because dad will get mad and they take away their toys, it's because they should have some fucking ethics in the first place, because they should be run by functional adults with a moral compass.

Asking for self-regulation purely for economic reasons is like a group of kids talking in code language to not rattle the adult.
 

EVA UNIT 01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,728
CA
too late imo.
lawmakers have opened their eyes and the ESRB and the like dragged their feet and sided with publishers
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
I kinda feel like slapping a label that says "this game's business model is to extract money from people with gambling problems" is probably not going to be enough, particularly at this point.

If the industry wanted this to be a long term revenue source, they should've practiced a little bit of tact. At this point, anybody with a functioning set of eyes and a moral compass (admittedly, not everyone has both of these) can see what's happening. The hammer is coming, and it'll be well earned.
 

deft

Member
Oct 27, 2017
166
I get that regulation can be a blunt instrument, but we're also living in an age where people in government actually know what video games are. I don't think regulation is as worrying a thought as it was in the 90s.

Then you look at how Blizzard handled China's regulations, and it really doesn't inspire confidence in me for an industry led initiative.
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
Good long and well elucidated post. I think it gives a clear practical reason why the industry should self-regulate.

It's just.. it's the wrong reason?

(Now disclaimer I don't like the casino industry and I could see how your opinion to it is very differently. I like self determination and the ideas of casinos. It's just that whenever I'm in one I can't shake the feeling it's mostly profiting off exploiting addicts.)

The more corporate apologism I read here, it doesn't seem to be that gamers (Americans?) fear government, it's that they fear accountability. Father state's raison d'etre is not to patronize and annoy, it's to set moral boundaries. The reason companies should not want to cross moral boundaries is not because dad will get mad and they take away their toys, it's because they should have some fucking ethics in the first place, because they should be run by functional adults with a moral compass.

Asking for self-regulation purely for economic reasons is like a group of kids talking in code language to not rattle the adult.

Ethics take a backseat to profits in capitalism, so it's a pipe dream to ask for these companies to be run by adults with a moral compass. Any adult with a moral compass would be fired or replaced because they would not be doing what is necessary for increasing profits of the company (see my post above)
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Nope. There's nothing wrong with regulation, other than it should be a last resort. But it will almost always get to the point where that last resort is necessary because the free market on its own can't be trusted.
 

Helmic

Member
Nov 7, 2017
51
To be quite honest, I don't want the industry to self regulate here. They've shown that they're not capable of that, and any self regulation offered up by these ratings boards will be insufficient. I want the industry to pay its taxes on these things, I want them to be forced to disclose odds, I want them to actually check to see whether a child is gambling. These rating boards don't have any legal teeth, stores simply choose to follow them willingly - and when there's so much money to be had from marketing gambling to children, I don't trust the free market here to make the right choice.

Remember that particpation in these rating boards is entirely voluntary - there's nothing forcing Blizzard to submit Hearthstone to the ESRB if they wish to avoid getting that pesky label, and no one checks for ID online. These rating boards were never created with online gambling in mind, and their nonexistent powers are insufficient to handle this mess.

We should all be highly skeptical about any suspicious changes of heart coming from the ESRB, PEGI, and the like. They already showed how little of a fuck they actually give about this, and any attempts to pretend they actually care now are going to be done purely to protect the bottom line of the industry, not actual people with real problems. It was fine before when they came into existence because the alternative was the very real possibility of the free speech of games being restricted; now that the game industry has well and truly fucked up, they need actual consequences this time around, not pretend ones that they make up themselves.
 
OP
OP
imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
So if you agree that gambling should be heavily regulated why then argue against the regulation of these new forms of gambling that can be just as if not even more addictive and devastating especially given the lack of an age requirement to participate in them? I get it that as it is currently defined these new systems are not technically gambling but they are exploiting the same sorts of behaviors and psychological tendencies that standard gambling does for profit so its basically gambling in everything but the strictest legal definition IMO. So why then argue about semantics instead of updating said legal definition to include these new forms under the legal definition?

I do not consider you to be gambling by buying the equivalent of collectible cards packs in our in-game economies. You cannot cash out, you cannot lose your bet and get nothing at all while funding someone else's win, you cannot launder money, you cannot get any reward from your participation in the RNG than whatever sense of satisfaction you got from unlocking all the shit in a game with incremental Space Bux upgrades you used to process not through a random number generator.

Loot boxes for player upgrades existed in Super Mario 3, for chrissakes. Video games have always been accused of being an addictive product.

If you're going to start labeling experiences that play bells and whistles and "you win" endorphin rushes as gambling because you can fund them in micro-increments, you are taking on a level of regulation that will never be successfully enacted.

So I think it is not unreasonable to try to get out in front of this and define our terms, and be clear that loot boxes look may like gambling just like jump to hit the upgrade box in Super Mario Bros. 3 looked like a slot machine, but their real evil innovation is that they are selling us something blind, that may turn out to have no value at all... That what we are seeing here is deceptive pricing schemes for game unlocks that may be paid or randomized, and that this unique new predatory practice does not fit under some existing legal term, but still deserves a warning on the box for other valid reasons.

That's why I went with a new warning, like P.T.

Then a determination should be made as to whether the presence of that distinct warning also triggers a Mature rating as well. All signs point to yes.
 

Chinner

Member
Oct 25, 2017
520
A company's responsibility is to make as much money as humanely possible. Ethics are not their priority, but their shareholders are. It is the responsibility of the government to ensure they act appropriately because otherwise they don't care.

We've had these bullshit practises for years now. I remember at E3 when they were opening joking on stage about not letting their kids have their credit cards because they would spend all their money on Ultimate Teams in Fifa. I'm glad this is public because the industry was literally laughing at predatory practises.

I know Americans get touchy about regulation, but it's fine. When our society puts priority on underlying profit over ethics then things need to be maintained. We've had years to self regulate and failed.
 

Bosh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,226
Things Are Coming to a Head Quickly

Damn, that was one of the best post I have read online.

Realistically the farthest I think this will go is an additional line added to ratings "in game purchases". GAaS is not going away, Western video game companies are doing what the US has done for years which is sell service. Even farther maybe item percentages could be disclosed but I don't think the real number would ever be revealed to the public, at most a area "x item is 0-10% chance).

You did a great job listing why it's not gambling but it still doesn't mean it's perfectly regulated. If an unaware kid has a chance to purchase additional items that's fair knowledge for the parent.

People going in saying "it's gambling!" Because they don't agree with it are talking to a wall as there are differences. We can still make changes , but only if we go in with a good and reasonable argument.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
Ethics take a backseat to profits in capitalism, so it's a pipe dream to ask for these companies to be run by adults with a moral compass. Any adult with a moral compass would be fired or replaced because they would not be doing what is necessary for increasing profits of the company (see my post above)
And yet there are lots of game companies who do not resort to predatory tactics. You won't see many predatory tactics being employed in family run businesses. Capitalism is too pluriform in its codes and mores to be used as a singular boogeyman. A lot of companies are still driven by delivering a good product. There is a problem within capitalism pertaining to the business school approach that companies should be run by bean counters who don't care for a product, only for shareholders (see Chinners post), and American (and also Chinese) culture of getting rich fast by burning all bridges. We should call these out. Neither of these are necessarily "what capitalism is all about". That's just what ceo's caught with their hand in the cookie jar say to shirk accountability for their actions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Great post, and i agree with you the government doesn't care if they are cosmetic or unlock progress.

And yeah it would be better if the ESRB stood up, they are definitely a better fit to deal with it that the gov, if it were for some people in congress they would ban children from going outside.

Although i feel that legally (not a lawyer though) it will never stand classifying them as gambling....and lately i've been feeling people should gamble once and they will realize is just not the same lol(not because of the win, losing in a casino just feels so awful).
 

Helmic

Member
Nov 7, 2017
51
The unfortunate thing here is that this likely going to be the gameplan of the industry, and they're going to do it in order to dictate the terms of how lootboxes will be regulated. Unlike the 90's, however, what the industry wants is almost the complete opposite of what we want. We're likely going to have to prepare to fight the ESRB on this and prepare arguments to explain why so and so solution still allows for awful stuff to happen.

In particular, these ratings are static while modern games are not. The ESRB will likely never agree to force publishers to disclose odds. We already have reason to suspect Activision Blizzard are doing something untoward with their microtransactions in Overwatch considering what desperate hoops they jumped through to avoid disclosure rules in China. I would not put it pas the industry to change odds based on whether they think someone might be a whale, and then intentionally manipulating odds so that the whale has to spend more and more to get what they want. This combined with practices like what Scientific Revenue is pushing are particularly concerning and I doubt the industry will voluntarily agree to leave money on the table here. Any compromises with the ESRB over lootboxes runs the risk of allowing shady stuff like this to slide.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,794
Great OP but I don't think that the proposed solution is good enough. I don't want lootboxes regulated, I want them gone from gaming.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
I´d rather have the government regulate things than some mega corporations. The US as a whole serves as a warning example to what happens when big corporations run the show instead of the government.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,043
they supported lootboxes showing that companies won't self regulate themselves, we have seen gaming get more predatory practices through the years and make them standards for the industry. Don't see why people have faith on companies who only care about how to squeeze as much money as possible
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,859
USA, Sol 3, Universe 1
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