Eurogamer: Bethesda suing Warner Bros. over Westworld mobile game containing Fallout Shelter code.

[Carthago Delenda Est]

What's your source on this? In book publishing the publisher is absolutely responsible if their author plagiarizes. I'm curious how copyright law affects code differently.

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Generally that's how liability works. And presumably any competent company would write a guarantee into the contract that the developer would have a right to use any code they put into the game. Do you have any source that says otherwise?

Don't fuck with them Bethesda lawyers man.

Seems highly unlikely that Bethesda would just sue the developer and let the game continue to make money whilst using their technology without some sort of reimbursement and likely either forced licensing of the tech or shutting down the game. WB will definitely be affected.

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WB might be affected, but it's not that simple.

 

[Absoludacrous]

Generally that's how liability works. And presumably any competent company would write a guarantee into the contract that the developer would have a right to use any code they put into the game. Do you have any source that says otherwise?



WB might be affected, but it's not that simple.

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So the answer was no on the source then?

Edit: To be clear, I'm saying WB will not be able to just show the court something that said "Hey, we didn't know, and he signed a contract saying he didn't do it." and be off the hook. They would still be liable for damages and would need to make changes to their product before they could continue selling it. Though obviously that contract means they could turn around and make claims of breach of contract with the developer.

Or most likely reach a settlement.

But I'm also not a lawyer, which is why I was hoping you could produce more than "because I said so," because it would be interesting to read.

 

[ASaiyan]

I'm sure any court in the land would find those bugs to be a trademark of Bethesda, lol.

If you're gonna make a ripoff fellas, at least write some new code. Just because you wrote it the first time doesn't mean you own it!

 

[Why would you do that?]

They're probably going to argue that it's their standard studio technology and not stuff they wrote for Fallout Shelter specifically.

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Must have been something in their contract about Bethesda completely owning all of the code, which is strange to me. I worked for a "work for hire" developer for 12 years, making games for many of the biggest publishers, and every game we made was based on the code from the previous game, regardless of which publisher that game was for. I mean, we upgraded our game engine with each new game, we weren't going to throw away that progress. Though to be fair, I can't think of any time we had two successive games be very similar, except when they truly were sequels.

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These are pretty much my thoughts. It isn't uncommon at all in the software industry to reuse your own code in several projects, especially if you're a work-for-hire that's streamlining all of your work. Reusing in-house code or an API helps with rapid development for multiple clients.

I'm not entirely sure how software copyrights work, but I don't think Bethesda can claim ownership of all the code. I mean, unless they forbid the developer from using ANY open source code at all (which is near impossible nowadays), there's going to be lots of code in the game that can't be owned by Bethesda.

There's got to be something more to the story, though. I'm curious what bugs they saw.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Possibly related: WAY back in the day, Nintendo hired another company to program Donkey Kong for them. Eventually that company took Nintendo to court for reusing the Donkey Kong code without permission, and the developer (not Nintendo) won.

Because that game engine and related code is the property of Bethesda, just because you can access it doesn't mean you are cleared to use it or parts of the code. It's not good business sense to base your products on things you have no right to publish, it's a huge liability that could bite you in the rear if you get caught like these guys might have been.

It's not about throwing out code every time you want to create something like it, it's about ensuring ownership of said code so they are actually able to reuse it. If they are legally unable to use that code, then they are forced to either license it from Bethesda or write their own version of it.

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My point was, the "concept" being simple and already done doesn't have anything to do with the programming time, and there's no point in ever not reusing old code when starting a new project (unless some silly contract makes someone else own the code). So is it true that Bethesda owns all rights to that code? That would be a silly thing for a developer to give up in a contract.

 

[Venom.]

If code has been copied then I understand that being a good reason to sue. But if Bethesda are suing for game design and art style then this, along with Blue Hole suing Epic for purportedly 'copying' Fortnite, then we might be heading into a dangerous new age where publishers sue others, just for having games in the same genre.

 

[GMM]

My point was, the "concept" being simple and already done doesn't have anything to do with the programming time, and there's no point in ever not reusing old code when starting a new project (unless some silly contract makes someone else own the code). So is it true that Bethesda owns that code? That would be a silly thing for a developer to give up in a contract.

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Yeah, I get what you are saying and they would be fools not to reuse the code if they had ownership over it, but we simply do not know what is up with the ownership of the codebase.

It's not uncommon for companies to pay a certain amount to purchase the exclusive rights for a codebase developed by an external firm. This doesn't prevent the developing company from producing a similar piece of code (unless they had an insane contract), but it prevents them from using the existing code and whatever similar product they make must be built from the ground up.

Bethesda wouldn't be able to sue if they didn't have some kind of ownership or other contractual rights to the code, so it is plausible Bethesda might actually own whatever Behavior gave them, if we believe Bethesda.

My point was rather that it is very suspicious that the same bugs allegedly is present in the code powering the WestWorld game as there was in the Fallout Shelter game. It's not unreasonable for Bethesda to believe Behavior could be in breach of contract and didn't create a similar codebase that reflected on the issues of original code or atleast was somewhat different due to small changes that would occur as it was rebuilt.

 

[MCN]

"It's not a bug, it's a copyright trap"

 

[Dreamwriter]

Bethesda wouldn't be able to sue if they didn't have some kind of ownership or other contractual rights to the code, so it is plausible Bethesda might actually own whatever Behavior gave them, if we believe Bethesda.

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You can sue for anything you want. And the fact that Bethesda is a huge company and Behavior a small company, could be Bethesda just bullying them, punishing them for making a similar game for another company.

Note that way back in the day, Nintendo paid another company to program Donkey Kong. Then Nintendo used the Donkey Kong code to make Donkey Kong Jr., and the company that made Donkey Kong sued Nintendo, and won, because it was their code, and there was no contract saying that Nintendo would gain control of the code.

 

[Yossarian]

God is hiring Onion writers to pen the reality script, I swear.

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There's a reality script?! I demand a rewrite!

 

[Vintage]

I tried the game yesterday (it sucks, pay to play timer nonsense), and it's obvious it's on the same engine as Fallout Shelter, but I thought it's by design.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Why throw out your game engine and recreate it from scratch with each game? That doesn't make sense, it'd be a waste of time and money. Copying game-design concepts doesn't save any programming time at all.

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I tried the game yesterday (it sucks, pay to play timer nonsense), and it's obvious it's on the same engine as Fallout Shelter, but I thought it's by design.

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Both games are made in Unity. They didn't make the game engine.

 

[deepFlaw]

The source TMZ article is pretty laughable.

Warner Bros. got in bed with a tech company that jacked codes in order to fast-track and produce its "Westworld" mobile app ... so claims another company in a new lawsuit.

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love to "jack codes" from my own work

 

[DeuceGamer]

This is actually where Bethesda Montreal came from. After having Behavior make Fallout Shelter, they poached 40 staff members from the company to start the new studio.

It's weird to me that they didn't sue Ubisoft though given Ubisoft hired Behavior to make an Assassin's Creed version of the same thing.

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Maybe they settled out of court with Ubisoft? Would we know if that happened?

 

[Deleted member 3812]

Here's a copy of the lawsuit Bethesda filed against Warner Bros. and Behaviour Interactive: https://www.scribd.com/document/382...ractive-Inc-and-Warner-Bros-Entertainment-Inc

 

[GMM]

Here's a copy of the lawsuit Bethesda filed against Warner Bros. and Behaviour Interactive: https://www.scribd.com/document/382...ractive-Inc-and-Warner-Bros-Entertainment-Inc

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This part is pretty interesting:

Under the agreement, all Behaviour work product of any kind, including code, designs, artwork, layouts, and other assets and materials for FALLOUT SHELTER were authored and owned by Bethesda ab initio as works made for hire.

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And as part of the initial contract Behavior seemingly agreed to this:

That Bethesda owns all intellectual property and rights related to the development of FALLOUT SHELTER, including "all associated versions and derivatives" and "all artwork, game designs, game play features, programming, trademarks, trade names, copyrights, know-how, patents, trade secrets and other Intellectual Property Rights."

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They might have a case.

 

[collige]

This part is pretty interesting:



And as part of the initial contract Behavior seemingly agreed to this:



They might have a case.

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Looks like Behaviour shot themselves in the foot by fucking up the contract.

 

[HockeyBird]

"Vault dweller, do you know where you are?"

"I am in a dream".

 

[Beastie91]

Westworld? Stealing code? yeah thats ironic

 

[Ada]

Behavior (the devs of this game) developed Fallout Shelter though? Makes sense they'd reuse some of the code for a game similar to the one they made.

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Not when said code was developed on someone elses' dime.

 

[Buckle]

Looks like theres a settlement that needs Bethesda's lawyers help.

 

[unicornKnight]

I don't understand, I worked in a consulting company, we shared a lot of code between different projects for different clients. Imo this is normal and acceptable.

 

[GMM]

I don't understand, I worked in a consulting company, we shared a lot of code between different projects for different clients. Imo this is normal and acceptable.

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Not if you signed an exclusivity agreement to said code with one of your clients, Behaviour messed up big time from the looks of it.

 

[night814]

This is really embarrassing. Damn.

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I don't know how they expected to get away with this honestly, they must have expected no one was gonna play it lol

 

[Armaros]

I don't understand, I worked in a consulting company, we shared a lot of code between different projects for different clients. Imo this is normal and acceptable.

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Is your companies product to clients, the actual code itself?

Because for a game developer, their product for their client is the code itself. Which in most work for hire contracts, the Client owns outright. As spelled out in the above mention contract.

 

[ILikeFeet]

This part is pretty interesting:



And as part of the initial contract Behavior seemingly agreed to this:



They might have a case.

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If the clause holds up in court, then Bethesda's in the right here. WB might just settle. Or sunset their game if it's not doing that well

 

[sibarraz]

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[ResetEraIsTheBestEra]

Lmao at the last paragraph, iconic bugs

 

[Tigress]

So, sadly, this whole thing has made me aware of the Westworld game. And so far it looks more involved than the Fallout game. Certainly doesn't have me sitting there waiting near as much (especially if your vault is small/young there is a lot of waiting time in Fallout Shelter).

So is it immoral of me to go head and play the game? I kinda feel this is between Bethesda and the developer and if Bethesda is in the right they'll get money from it so me playing it shouldn't affect them.

 

[Chris.]

WB coders:
"Doesn't look like anything to me."

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Lmao

Never heard of this game, gonna have to look it up. Quite a funny way to get caught though, what a fuck up.

 

[Deleted member 14002]

I didn't know this game launched.

Downloading now because I loved fallout shelter.

 

[VallenValiant]

LMAO
Can't stop laughing
Bethesda bugs are indeed iconic

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Yep. Just as Fallout 3 bugs ended up in Skyrim. Despite Fallout 3 fixing the bug years before, the bug showed up again with the new game.
(The bug I meant, was the one where corpses that were turned to ash doesn't get deleted. This causes problems as the ash piles just add up over time as new enemies spawn and die in the same area, until the area get overloaded with entities and slow to a crawl. Fallout 3 fixed it, but then it happened in Skyrim all over again.)

 

[saenima]

It's weird to me that they didn't sue Ubisoft though given Ubisoft hired Behavior to make an Assassin's Creed version of the same thing.

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What game is this?

Nvm found it.

 

[alpha]

The fact that Bethesda has "iconic bugs" is both hilarious and unsurprising to me.

 

[TaleSpun]

Eh. Beth is notoriously petty and Warner is flush. *shrug*

 

[TheUnseenTheUnheard]

There's no such thing as easy money folks

 

[Mr. Pointy]

WB coders:
"Doesn't look like anything to me."

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[Era of not Yakuza]

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underappreciated comment

Yep. Just as Fallout 3 bugs ended up in Skyrim. Despite Fallout 3 fixing the bug years before, the bug showed up again with the new game.
(The bug I meant, was the one where corpses that were turned to ash doesn't get deleted. This causes problems as the ash piles just add up over time as new enemies spawn and die in the same area, until the area get overloaded with entities and slow to a crawl. Fallout 3 fixed it, but then it happened in Skyrim all over again.)

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Next step: Bethesda bugs in real life

 

[Kylo Rey]

Westworld tv show will remain. Ratings of S2 are good.
So i don't care about this game.

Westworld one of the big 4 tv show right now with The Crown, Mr Robot and Better Call Saul

 

[Van Bur3n]

The hidden purpose of Bethesda's bugs all along. We should be ashamed of our words and deeds.