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Oct 25, 2017
13,652
Months after the final collapse of the so-called Islamic State in the deserts of eastern Syria, tens-of-thousands of its fighters and those that lived within its so-called caliphate face an uncertain future.

Many are in the north-eastern Syrian region of Rojava, where Kurdish authorities hold 10,000 ISIS fighters, including 2,000 foreigners, and wish to see them tried in local courts.

Months after the final collapse of the so-called Islamic State in the deserts of eastern Syria, tens-of-thousands of its fighters and those that lived within its so-called caliphate face an uncertain future.

Now, in northeastern Syria, Europeans who lived in the caliphate are concerned that they will be transferred to Iraq.

"Yes, they said they would send us to Iraq to give us... how do we say it? Life in prison," a French woman said told Euronews in the Ein Issa refugee camp.

"France would have preferred that we were all dead."


At least 11 French nationals have been tried in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, says Nabil Boudi, a lawyer who represents European nationals held in Syria and Iraq for suspected links to ISIS.

Boudi has warned that there could be consequences for France.

"If France's involvement in the transfer (of French prisoners from Syria to Iraq) is documented, proved, France will be condemned in international and European courts," he said.

"France is a signatory of international conventions notably against the death penalty within the context of the Council of Europe, which means it doesn't have the right to transfer its citizens to a country where they practice torture or sentence people to death."



 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
Confusing article. It mentions 10,000 fighters, presumably military-aged males, but the human perspective and pictures focus on women and children? Those things aren't the same - if nothing else, there's a whole generation of ISIS kids who didn't ask to be born under the black flag.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
There were similar issues in the UK too of this happening. I mean, what do you even say? You don't leave your home to join a terrorist organisation with plans to attack it unless you hated your country, right? So if these people truly hate France enough to join and support ISIS, why are they now practically begging France to bail them out of a life sentence in Iraq? Isn't that extraordinarily hypocritical?
 

Sirhc

Hasn't made a thread yet. Shame me.
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,045
Odd they would be transferred to Iraq from Syria, guessing Syria no longer has the facilities to handle them all?

Ironic how a bunch of people who leave their country to go try to start their own caliphate expect the country they abandoned to save them.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,238
Many are in the north-eastern Syrian region of Rojava, where Kurdish authorities hold 10,000 ISIS fighters, including 2,000 foreigners, and wish to see them tried in local courts.
Sounds about right.

I'd say the nations that did not do enough to prevent their citizens from leaving to Iraq and Syria to join ISIS should provide aid to those countries that are now saddled with children that no one wants.

The adult citizens who left for ISIS deserve nothing less than life in prison in the countries they harmed with their twisted terrorist org.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,233
There were similar issues in the UK too of this happening. I mean, what do you even say? You don't leave your home to join a terrorist organisation with plans to attack it unless you hated your country, right? So if these people truly hate France enough to join and support ISIS, why are they now practically begging France to bail them out of a life sentence in Iraq? Isn't that extraordinarily hypocritical?
It is.

Imo we should get the kids back to europe and leave everyone who conciously decided to join the islamic state to be judged by the country they were caught in.
 

Herb Alpert

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,033
Paris, France
It's a passionate and quite irrational debate here in France. Kids should be brought back. Their mothers, too, depending on their involvment with isis.
Fighters have to be judged where they commit their deeds though imo...
 

Facism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,916
I believe the issue that came up in the UK was to do with someone's UK citizenship being retroactively revoked, which I felt was pretty shitty - it basically enables the state to wash its hands of its own citizens and their dependents.

She was also groomed and radicalised in the UK as a teenager if i remember.
 

Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,014
You go to other side of the world and commit crimes there, so I would say it's kinda natural face trial also there.
 

FriendlyNPC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,596
Hard to feel any empathy for these people really.

They should get tried in the countries where they did their crimes. It mostly affected people there after all.
 
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BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
Yeah, very poorly written

Article seems to imply that the EU wants the families of fighters to be genocided; but there's nothing to back up this assertion and there are policy efforts underway to deal with these issues that doesn't involve leaving them stateless and without rights.

In fact, France is trying to repatriate 130 fighters since early this year, which is a case closely monitored in my country, but there are legal and diplomatic hurdles on top of emotional public pushback.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,253
I feel for people and 2nd chances... but your murdering ass joined ISIS. Fucking ISIS...at some point when you abandon your humanity, the rest of humanity wants to abandon you, cause you deserve it.

I feel for people and dont want to give out death sentences blithely, but when people joined ISIS so they could go support death sentances... I mean... what are you expecting.

Children save em protect them give them a good life, but their parents... unfit for raising children or society
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
If you as a foreigner commit crimes in a different country, shouldn't you be judged by the laws of the country where you committed those crimes, rather than your own country?

People who left for Islamic State rejected the western country where they lived (and have passports, in most cases), and now that they have lost the war, the crybabies ask the people who they rejected to take them back and face trial in Europe, because surely they know Middle Eastern punishment is much harder. What a bunch of hypocrite fools. Fuck off.
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
4,829
Get fucked, you chose your side. There's nothing to reabilitate and save when you went to fight aside one of the worst ideology of this century.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,926
Sounds about right.

I'd say the nations that did not do enough to prevent their citizens from leaving to Iraq and Syria to join ISIS should provide aid to those countries that are now saddled with children that no one wants.

The adult citizens who left for ISIS deserve nothing less than life in prison in the countries they harmed with their twisted terrorist org.

How would they do that?
 

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
This showed up in the news here in Spain too, regarding the fate of some Spanish women who were now living in some Kurdish refugee camp with their children.

They did not fight for ISIS directly, but they traveled from Spain with the explicit purpose of joining the caliphate. They were married off to some soldiers upon arrival and from there onwards they basically had children non-stop.

They appeared in television short ago saying they were hoping Spain would take them back in, unsuspecting that the plan of the government is to take their children and charge them for aiding an enemy terrorist organisation. In the video (recorded by the Kurds I believe) they seemed really hopeful they would return to Spain to their former lives, I don't know how can they think that's possible.
 

gerg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,343
She was also groomed and radicalised in the UK as a teenager if i remember.

That's another issue that definitely complicates matters - it's not like she ventured on holiday innocently and never returned.

I think there are some instances where revocation of citizenship can be justified, but my impression from that specific incident was that it wasn't one of them.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,426
I believe in second chances for many things. Joining ISIS is not one of those things. If they are concerned about their children I would suggest they put them up for adoption (or something similar) and then get comfy in the bed they made.
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
3,882
If the people of the countries they had their murder safari on wish to judge them, I don't think it would be at all fair for Western governments to come riding to try and save their citizens from that fate.

But since no Western government actually wants to have these people back, I guess it's a non issue. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Might want to do something about the kids, though we should remember their parents managed to choose to go to ISIS while living in the West, if it's done it should be done right, give them a chance at having a proper life with hopefully less stupid decisions in their future.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Odd they would be transferred to Iraq from Syria, guessing Syria no longer has the facilities to handle them all?

Ironic how a bunch of people who leave their country to go try to start their own caliphate expect the country they abandoned to save them.

Syria is pretty much still a battlefield. I don't think there are facilities left for anything.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
Treason on the worst scale and abandoning your country and then complaining that your country doesn't want you? Boohoo you terrorist fucks. No chance an Iraqi court is as civil to them as a Western court would be, especially when the Iraqis were in the thick of it.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,926
What do you mean how? If they're not taking the kids back to their parents' countries, they owe it to Iraq and Syria, or really any other country having to take them in, to shoulder the costs.

I'm referring you your comment that those nations needed to "do more" to prevent their citizens from leaving their countries in the first place. How would they do that? People are free to leave their countries in free republics.
 
Nov 1, 2017
848
So let's see, you joined a terrorist organization that tried to steal territory from Iraq, killed Iraqi citizens in that effort, fought the Iraqi army and now you're worried that Iraq will punish you for it? What the fuck did you think was going to happen? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I usually lean pretty far left on any sort of criminal rehabilitation, but like... man. You renounce your country to go join a terrorist organization with an ideology of genocide, maybe I'm not so upset when I hear your passport or even citizenship are revoked.

The real problem are the people who were indoctrinated as minors or were born in Syria to foreign parents. Quite the humanitarian crisis looms there.
 

R0987

Avenger
Jan 20, 2018
2,828
If they were adults when they joined isis then tough luck, teenagers and kids however are a harder case.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,238
I'm referring you your comment that those nations needed to "do more" to prevent their citizens from leaving their countries in the first place. How would they do that? People are free to leave their countries in free republics.
I remember when we were getting articles on a semi-weekly basis about this or that person fled x EU country to join ISIS, there were many who you'd find out counter-terrorism agencies were keeping an eye on prior to their fleeing the country.
Considering it was a trend, it was up to those countries to do what they could to stop them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,849
No sympathy for them.

Were was the sympathy for the people that had their heads sawn off or those pilots who were burnt to death for propaganda videos?

I am not saying that everyone was involved, but how many of these people went AFTER those sort of things happening was widespread?
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
It's very wrong seeing them sent to Iraq for trial simply because we have already seen the trials done in Iraq are not fair at all.

One should face justice but not in some kangaroo court where access to legal representation is denied as well as confessions gained under torture.


International legal experts say Iraq's terrorism prosecutions are intrinsically flawed: Confessions are sometimes obtained through torture or coercion, some judges are biased, and defendants routinely lack adequate legal counsel.
"You can't outsource a trial that suspends fundamental trial rights, if the trial is unfair and the punishment is disproportionate," said Andrew Clapham, professor of international law at the Graduate Institute for International and Development Studies in Geneva.



BAGHDAD — The 42-year-old housewife had two minutes to defend herself against charges of supporting the Islamic State.
Amina Hassan, a Turkish woman in a flowing black abaya, told the Iraqi judge that she and her family had entered Syria and Iraq illegally and lived in the Islamic State's so-called caliphate for more than two years. But, she added: "I never took money from Islamic State. I brought my own money from Turkey."

The whole trial lasted 10 minutes before the judge sentenced her to death by hanging.
Another accused Turkish woman entered the courtroom. Then another, and another.
Within two hours, 14 women had been tried, convicted and sentenced to die.

That's not a judicial process which seeks to prove guilt. You don't get to pick and choose when one should be trialed fairly and justly.

France or anyone else should be making sure its citizens are given fair trials. If that's not possible then they should be trying them in their own country.
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,926
I remember when we were getting articles on a semi-weekly basis about this or that person fled x EU country to join ISIS, there were many who you'd find out counter-terrorism agencies were keeping an eye on prior to their fleeing the country.
Considering it was a trend, it was up to those countries to do what they could to stop them.

But, what does that mean? People have rights, you can't just lock people up on suspicions. You can't stop people from getting on a plane to go to another legitimate country.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,768
Adults can rot or even better loose their heads. Kids who didn't participate in terrorist acts should be returned.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
The ones alive obviously!!
All of them? should we take all of the children of every country touched by Isis? And why only those, let's take every child from every country touched by war or maybe only the ones born by European terrorist parents?

And after we take them, the question still stands. where should they go? Institution? Trump-like camps?