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European Court of Justice: UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50. Deal meaningful vote delayed. (Brexit)
- Thread starter Deleted member 5028
- Start date
No it didn't. That was started by 20+ years of blaming EU for everything bad and was escalated by "we don't want Eastern Europeans in our neighbourhood" combined with "we don't like brown people" + "the refugees will conquer us".
And no, the fact that there are some nuts on the other side doesn't excuse anything.
That's the issue, with this ruling somebody like Orban can play with fire and not get burned.
this is beyond stupid. "the UK" is not a bunch of idiotic and greedy politicians, it's also people. some are idiotic and greedy, some are just gullible, and a lot just wanted to stay in Europe. I'm pretty sure the latter should not "crawl on their knees and beg for mercy", and exactly no one in the UE will profit from it.
The EU doesn't have to negotiate if they think it's a ruse, the UK got nothing out of article 50 except looking crazy.
I know, but it's a recipe for continuous instability and stupid electoral promises.
Yep I agree but with the way Brexit's being going I wouldn't be surprised if it is what happens some of the Tory members definitely want that outcome though.
Yeah, those comments actually do.
Let's not pretend the UK is unique in some sections blaming the EU for problems, real or imagined. Let's not pretend every other EU country doesn't have sections which complain about immigrants or asylum seekers. Let's not pretend the UK is really different to any of the other leading EU member states.
Brexit came about due to internal politics and power struggles which have backfired combined with opportunistic rabble rousing and it's all snowballing down the gutter, who pays the price? The people, who can least afford to.
Someone who invokes Article 50, has their bluff called and goes jk it was a negotiating tactic but we actually didn't get anything is absolutely going to get burned, if not by the EU then by their own nation's voters.
The EU will rewrite article 50 after this UK debacle is over to prevent exactly what you are describing.
Nobody said that UK has the monopoly on xenophobia, but UK is the only EU country that acted so radically because of it so far.
And no, other people's xenophobia doesn't excuse one's own.
Unless countries like Hungary, Poland and Italy opposed it. And UK if they decide they want back in.
Based on what we have seen from Brexit, it is also mostly those people that voted for it. In England and Wales, it was highly educated, richer people that have voted Remain and the poorer people that have voted Leave. The people who can least afford to seemed to vote for it the most. People voted to hurt themselves, and to give more power to the idiots in charge instead of limiting it.
It's fucking the Tories up and they are broadly sticking to Brexit and leaving, it's an insane tactic that could probably only happen in Italy where they don't seem to care who runs the country.
It's almost like voting habits are more closely aligned with demographic issues than individuals exercising critical thought to come to a conclusion on their own agency.
I.e. this is not an argument to say fuck those people.
Real people's lives are at stake here, in the UK and in the rest of the EU. An internet tough guy approach is not becoming.
This, in a nutshell.
If this all ends up being undone, the biggest thing that this country needs to do is to actually educate those people on the benefits of being a member of the EU, and not thinking that all it brings to the table is hardship and candidly, "bad immigration" - which is what is - and I don't think i'm generalising much ere - one of the first things to come out of working class leave voters mouths when they are asked why they voted the way they did.
I don't think it's as clear cut as that but I don't wholly disagree. Why do you think that happened? It wasn't honest from the start. Plaster shit like the NHS getting an additional £350million (or whatever it was) per week everywhere which within hours of the result being confrimed everyone is told the money won't be coming. Similar story with jobs and improving the country's standard of living.
PM of Netherlands had some balls on a referendum there not so long ago; told everyone "I don't think the result is in the country/people's best interest" and that was the end of that... simplified of course.
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The only way that's going to happen is with the press getting on board and not blaming the EU and immigrants for everything.
So never.
For fucks sake if this is true the amount of kicking the can so this pathetic government can keep limping on is shameful shameful shameful, we need some kind of action dammit.
I don't think the Tories can do it(or Labour to be fair) a second vote seems the likely way out if we want to stay.
Bingo.
Sad to see this stuff on Era, especially when mixed with the bigotry towards the UK.
Let's be honest, it is media manipulation with a too weak political class to go against the lies of the Daily Mail-like media. But again, that is an issue generated by the English audience. People have to take responsibility themselves for their own decisions and for ignoring the experts. If they willfully ignore those experts; they should be called out on causing this for themselves.
while I welcome the decision and the tiny glimmer of hope it provides, it does seem an odd one. The article was badly designed in the first place - I assume they never expected anyone to use it. But now you can enact it, waste millions for two years, then just go 'psych' and withdraw? Seems a potentially destabilising thing.
Having said that - it could allow the government to withdraw while they figure out the best way forward - you know, like they should have done before enacting the fucking thing in the first place. And that could take years/never.
Having said that - it could allow the government to withdraw while they figure out the best way forward - you know, like they should have done before enacting the fucking thing in the first place. And that could take years/never.
Whilst I totally agree - what is the alternative? If May does go we risk ending up with Boris or worse.....
No - people need to be listened to. Education only works if you properly listen and understand why they voted leave. Telling them they were wrong won't help at all.
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With respect, whilst I agree that just dismissing 17M people as barmpots and racists is absolutely wrong - many of those people have been fed so much incorrect information over decades and have formed their own view based on it - that I'm not sure what we listen to.
FoM is an inherently good thing that does disadvantage some particular communities. But for the overall good of the country and its economy it is a positive. The people who voted leave (mainly) aren't those directly impinged by FoM (some are but a lot aren't) but still mainly voted on that basis. How can we do anything about that whilst not leaving? Therefore I'm unconvinced by any argument to "listen" because you won't be able to action what you hear back.
So, what the fuck is going to happen now? Is this going to be kicked along until after Christmas in the hope of... something?
Regardless of whether you agree with Brexit or not (and I certainly don't), it's shameful - but utterly British - to see how it's been handled in the run-up to, during and after the referendum. It's a shambles that pleases no-one, that is handled utterly ineptly, and that's doing huge reputational and real-world damage to the country, and again the country is being held hostage by Tory internal politicking. Fucking disgraceful.
Neither does assuming they want whatever deal the PM and Brexiters think up. The real problem is honesty and truth, if you had a statesman who laid out the facts and hard truths people would be more accepting of the realities but we just have liars, unicorns and people out for self interest. If someone took the lead and said we ignored the plight of many people in areas of the UK, this wasn't an EU or immigration problem, it was multiple UK Governments that were wrong and we will rectify that with this plan while taking advantage of the great benefits of being in the EU as a full member such as......
That's what needs to said.
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Anglophobia is a real thing that happens in some EU circles. There's no way to deny that.
At the same time, it's so rarely (if ever) projected outside internal borders, as it's mostly parochial politics mixed with local prejudices. And these days a fair bit of Twitter trash talk. It gets little if no cover space and it never seeps towards foreign ministries, barring some bizarre interludes regarding Gibraltar.
To claim that it played even the smallest of the significant parts in Brexit is bonkers, given that the UK is basically isolated from it *and* supports an entire industry of ralentless engines of defamation disguised as newspapers, in turn (or is it the other way around?) used to steer N10's policy in the EU. Which makes their positions fantastically visible outside of the UK's natural borders.
At the same time, it's so rarely (if ever) projected outside internal borders, as it's mostly parochial politics mixed with local prejudices. And these days a fair bit of Twitter trash talk. It gets little if no cover space and it never seeps towards foreign ministries, barring some bizarre interludes regarding Gibraltar.
To claim that it played even the smallest of the significant parts in Brexit is bonkers, given that the UK is basically isolated from it *and* supports an entire industry of ralentless engines of defamation disguised as newspapers, in turn (or is it the other way around?) used to steer N10's policy in the EU. Which makes their positions fantastically visible outside of the UK's natural borders.
I would counter that what the country needs to do is properly address the structural inequalities resulting from 30 years of neoliberalism. The Brexit vote was a provoked lashing-out yes, but it wasn't born in a vacuum.
That would be an incredibly effective way of damaging your own country.
UK has already lost massive amounts of investment since the vote. That's before you consider that almost nothing else bar Brexit has been able to be achieved by parliament.
Then you get into businesses moving to the EU for safety, and EU citizens no longer coming to work here just in case... not good.
May will go to EU this week and negotiate. Come back with something, put it to parliament next week.
She hopes that effort and some small EU concession will show her own MPs she has "tried" and perhaps there will be some symbolic "victory" so May can be painted as a tough negotiator and she hopes that will be enough to get it through parliament.
We at least need to be listening to the reasons people have - if they're against FoM why? Then we can respond with information - like how it is a net positive. Or how acxtually the government has the ability to put some controls on movement within the EU but chooses not to (therefore being in the EU or out of it would make no difference)
So a combination of education but also listening.
Just anything that actually begets some movement. It's less than four months until exit day and we have no decision on what that'll look like. May continuing to blackmail the country with 'my deal or nothing' is untenable. An actual choice needs to be put on a podium to live or die, so we can move on from it, rather than weaseling political cowardice out of some false, blind hope that there's somehow a way to mould this deal into something successful.
Her government have been given so many opportunities, and they're breaking all of their own deadlines. It's a joke and something needs to change.
That has already been tried. You are talking to communities of people who do not believe in data or experts. They have formed a view. Based on their "experiences". There is no educating or changing this view. Whatever you do. I live in a leave part of the country. This is how it is. They will not change their views. A leave part of the country with relatively low EU migration too, but high RoW migration. They blame the EU for migration entirely. But they will not change their minds because of a government campaign. Their minds are formed. Whatever you do, is a waste of time and energy.
Can;t see them backing down after saying it so publicly. That really would causes them issues later on.
"here's your deal, now take it, fuck off, or stay as you are. We're done here"
Worst court ever.
The UK should never be allowed back in with their old privileges but not much we can do about it if they decide so I guess. Incredibly bad for the stability of the EU.
The UK should never be allowed back in with their old privileges but not much we can do about it if they decide so I guess. Incredibly bad for the stability of the EU.
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