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Eurovision Song Contest 2019 |OT| The place where joiking, dead drops, dentists and bondage come together.
- Thread starter Red Arremer
- Start date
Are you not from around here? It's been an age long tradition for the UK to do terribly in Eurovision, this isn't some sort of punishment for recent EU decisions, and perpetuating that it is would only create more bad blood. Do you think Germany getting a zero from the people's vote was due to the World Wars too?
Oh please, it's nothing to do with that.
UK has been in the competition for 62 years, won it 5 times, but the last time we won it was 1997, 22 years ago. Since then we've done nothing of worth, not finished anywhere notable. We've come last in 2003, 2008, 2010 and obviously last night. In 2003 we got 0 points.
We traditionally do poorly at Eurovision, not everything is Brexit related, no matter how much some of wish to crowbar it in to everything.
20 years isn't really tradition, and you've still managed three top five finishes in that time. downgrade compared to past success, but you're being a bit dramatic.
I agree, but that's because I heard this year's song every fucking day on the radio and I'm going to hear it even more now. At first I thought it was a new Sam Smith song or something lol
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Jan Ola Sand stated before that EBU associate members such as Kazakhstan joining the contest has been in discussion. They didn't reach a decision yet, but it is a big topic for them.
I'm hoping for those countries to return too, but it seems unlikely. Same for Luxembourg and Monaco.
Though perhaps the fact San Marino did surprisingly well might be leading to some of them rethinking and perhaps at least trying to join in again.
The one country I would like to finally debut is Liechtenstein, though the program director who was pushing for it passed away, and it doesn't look like the Liechtensteiner government is wanton to support the station getting into the EBU and contest.
It has nothing to do with 'tradition' (nor with Brexit for that matter).
As some of us discussed before, it only has to do with the UK not taking the contest seriously. If the BBC actually tries, they score well, and they would have a chance of winning. If countries like the Netherlands, Austria or Portugal (and Portugal is indeed one of the least successful in the contest and has been in the well over 50 years since its debut - before Salvador Sobral's win, the highest it ever placed was like 6th) can win, then the UK can. But the BBC doesn't give a shit, and it's much easier to blame everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, Michael Rice is a great vocalist, but the song that was picked for him literally was the leftovers from Sweden's John Lundvik.
As for 2003's 0 points - have you seen that performance?
Do you really think that is worth more?
Since 2009, winners have been
So aside from Azerbaijan and Ukraine, a traditional country (at least 40 participations) has won 9 out of 11 times since the voting system was split between Jury and Public vote. So the new system is better protected against bloc voting, and shows that top countries can win again. The BBC has missed that change.
- Norway
- Germany
- Azerbaijan
- Sweden x2
- Denmark
- Austria
- Ukraine
- Portugal
- Netherlands
- Israel
So aside from Azerbaijan and Ukraine, a traditional country (at least 40 participations) has won 9 out of 11 times since the voting system was split between Jury and Public vote. So the new system is better protected against bloc voting, and shows that top countries can win again. The BBC has missed that change.
You're missing my point. I don't care about how many points UK gets, we've had some egregious songs. My point is, last place last night had nothing to do with Brexit. For the last 22 years we've been mid table obscurity to bottom of the league - as the chap above corrects me (thanks), yes a few top 5 placings in that time too, but the odd high doesn't change the fact that overall we haven't done well at Eurovision since the 90s. And as I say, I don't care about that, literally couldn't give two shits about scores and placings, but I'm irritated by people cramming Brexit into every discussion where Europe comes up when it's not really warranted.
Interesting if it's true that the new system has shifted towards another group of countries
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Fair enough.
As said, the BBC is to blame for this though, not 'tradition' or whatever else people ascribe the UK's bad performance to.
It hasn't really all that much. Eastern Europe and the Nordic countries still are very strong, which is what people were concerned with during the naughties, what with them dominating during that time.
Fact of the matter is that Eastern and Northern Europe took the contest seriously and sent quality acts that resonated with all of Europe which is why they did well.
Between 1999 and 2010, only Eastern European and Nordic countries won.
One of the reasons Turkey decided to stop as they knew they would have no chance of winning another Eurovision with the Jury votes. When Eurovision was based on jury votes only they always ended on the bottom row. There was another complaint from them that they should get rid of the Final teams. Only the winner should qualify for the final and all other countries should compete with each other.
I has a bog all to do that with that. The UK sends a shit song every year and has done for years. Including this year. Send shit, expect no points.
And yes, I am British. I understand why this happens, as it is the kiss of death of a proper career in the UK, but let's not try and pretend it is anything else.
greece and germany won between those dates, and that seems a weird way to define top countries. certainly sweden is a top country, even if they happen to be nordic as well. and i don't think you can show a single case when a nordic country won because of bloc voting. there's not enough of them to do that.
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I corrected myself with the mistake between 2011 and 2010 - I didn't mean to count Germany's win (as that one broke the streak), and the other person didn't mean "top country" but "classic country", as in countries that have participated since at least the 1970s.
And I am well aware that the Nordics didn't win because of bloc voting. In the same post you quoted, I respond to somebody else saying why people were wanting the juries back and that it didn't really matter in the long run, because Eastern Europe and the Nordics still perform very strongly regardless of the jury/televote split.
You'll see me being the very first to denounce that bloc voting has as much of an influence as people think it has.
I found it weird that the Greece/Cyprus thing got booed but not the high scores that Sweden got from all the other Nordic countries (12 from Finland, Denmark and Iceland and 8 from Norway).
I always find it really amusing here as Swedes moan about the voting between Eastern European countries but have some kind of cognitive dissonance when it comes to inter Nordic voting.
For the record, Sweden gave 12 to Norway, 8 to Iceland and 7 to Denmark.
I always find it really amusing here as Swedes moan about the voting between Eastern European countries but have some kind of cognitive dissonance when it comes to inter Nordic voting.
For the record, Sweden gave 12 to Norway, 8 to Iceland and 7 to Denmark.
i agree with your post, but it still needs to be pointed out that all the nordic countries except iceland have participated at least from the early 1960s, so they would be classic countries as well.
Yeah Scandinavian bloc voting is way, way worse than the 12 points between Cyprus and Greece. They're the only ones still voting like the 2000 Balkans.
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I know, the person that kicked off this conversation said that as well. :)
What I've been trying to say is that complaints were made about the televoting resulting in neighbouring countries voting for each other all the time which is why Eastern/Nordic countries won during the 10 years between Charlotte Nilson and Alexander Rybak, which is why the juries were installed, to supposedly stop bloc voting, but it hasn't really changed all that much in the actual results (and bloc voting is just as bad if not worse in the jury vote).
The main thing the reintroduction of the juries and Germany's win did was kicking off the other Western European countries finally starting to take the contest seriously.
At this point sweden's song had a lot of points alreasy so getting 12 from neighbours didn't seem so bad while greece had basically none so getting 12 from cyprus looked more suspicious.
Everyone votes and voted this year for Sweden, Norway just very much aligned with Sweden in sensibilities. But it's not like Sweden's given Norway 12-pointers when the Norwegian entry has been poor / low in the ranking.
unless we're talking about a different person, i was referring to their "top(classic) country can win again" post, implying that countries like sweden could not win at some point, which is of course blatantly false.
Given the "just" 93 points from the popular vote I'm not so inclined to agree. But I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about every year basically.
There are (quickly counting) 5 nordic countries, 4 Balkan countries, 4 CIS countries and 3 Baltic countries. Either there is no such thing as bloc voting, or the way that the Nordic countries consistently share their 8-12 points around can be called as such.
(I don't mind much, as a western European I'm more inclined to like an overproduced Scandinavian pop earworm than two people shouting a musical song at each other, so I prefer Scandinavian bloc voting over say Balkan ones, but that's also kind of the point)
Edit2: probably 6 former CIS countries, which explains Russia's poor song almost winning, although the relationships among former CIS is.. complicated.
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Norway being "very much aligned with Sweden in sensibilities" is exactly the same as Greece and Cyprus.
So why do Greece and Cyprus get booed but Norway and Sweden (as well as the other Nordics) get a pass?
Before the jury shift, we came from a 10 year period with Russia, Serbia, Estonia, Latvia as winners. From that period I only remember Wild Dances and Hard Rock Hallelujah. That did stop the 90s Irish domination.
Which is completely idiotic. They managed fourth place with Hadise and second place with maNga. Even their third result was 7th place. Only once they did they fail to qualify at all. It is a lot beter than their track record before.
I'm also annoyed at how we swedes complain about block voting but ignore when we do it or are rewarded by it ourselves.
Norway and Sweden easily had the best songs. Iceland was also great and brought a proper show that was generally lacking from most other contestants. The Serbian lady was a damn good singer but the song was like... 30 years out of fashion and not even particularly good even disregarding that? Super weird song choice. Everything else was more or less a garbage fire musically. When almost none of the songs even reach the quality of generic mildly successful radio pop you know you've got a problem.
IKEA technically became a Dutch company a couple of years ago, so... it checks out.
(They're the largest *cough* charity organization *cough* in the world so they're enjoying tax breaks here)
Ok yeah, late reaction but my brain was busted after the show ended. Some things that stuck to me.
- Nice to see my country win one as it has been 44 years since the last win. Not too exciting since it's been expected to win for so long already, though it did got tense after the jury votes in the top 3 were that close together. That Sweden point reveal at the end felt a bit painful though.
- BWAHAHAHAHAHA Madonna, lmao. She really lost it huh. Really poor performance of Like a Prayer followed by playbacked autotune? Wow. Well, I guess I was entertained, even if it was just for comedic value.
- Talking about comedic value, that 0 point moment for Germany gave me life. Man, what a absolute horrendous song, actual assault on the ears. Very glad for televoters not spending any time to vote on that. I think Germany's and Denmark's songs were the only songs that actively annoyed me though, I'd say the overall quality of the show was pretty decent.
- I was about to complain about the "Big 5" being trash again, but then I reminded myself that Italy is part of that and that song was easily my favorite song. The Spain one was still fun to listen to as well even if it wasn't anything special.
- Bring back Verka every year please, I can never get enough of that. Most of the intermission stuff was a pretty fun watch, well run show overall apart from a couple of camera accidents.
- My favorite songs:
Italy - Just a great song overall, loved the vibe.
Norway - Now this was made of the Eurovision stuff that I know and love.
Sweden - Sounded a bit generic to me, but I still vibe with it.
Slovenia - Weird ass performance, but I really liked the song for some reason.
San Marino - Basically trash, but it just brings a smile to my face.
Netherlands - My home country, so my opinion on the song is void
- Songs I wish made it to the final:
Portugal - No idea what that performance actually was, but I vibed hard with it.
Hungary - Just a great song.
Poland - I just love unique stuff and this one stood out to me.
So yeah, this is all that's coming back to me at the moment. Fun show, fun week, still love Eurovision. And a actual chance I might go to it since it's actually in my country for once, we'll see about that in a year though. Gonna do a rewatch with a couple of Americans later today, see how they react to all this nonsense, lol.
- Nice to see my country win one as it has been 44 years since the last win. Not too exciting since it's been expected to win for so long already, though it did got tense after the jury votes in the top 3 were that close together. That Sweden point reveal at the end felt a bit painful though.
- BWAHAHAHAHAHA Madonna, lmao. She really lost it huh. Really poor performance of Like a Prayer followed by playbacked autotune? Wow. Well, I guess I was entertained, even if it was just for comedic value.
- Talking about comedic value, that 0 point moment for Germany gave me life. Man, what a absolute horrendous song, actual assault on the ears. Very glad for televoters not spending any time to vote on that. I think Germany's and Denmark's songs were the only songs that actively annoyed me though, I'd say the overall quality of the show was pretty decent.
- I was about to complain about the "Big 5" being trash again, but then I reminded myself that Italy is part of that and that song was easily my favorite song. The Spain one was still fun to listen to as well even if it wasn't anything special.
- Bring back Verka every year please, I can never get enough of that. Most of the intermission stuff was a pretty fun watch, well run show overall apart from a couple of camera accidents.
- My favorite songs:
Italy - Just a great song overall, loved the vibe.
Norway - Now this was made of the Eurovision stuff that I know and love.
Sweden - Sounded a bit generic to me, but I still vibe with it.
Slovenia - Weird ass performance, but I really liked the song for some reason.
San Marino - Basically trash, but it just brings a smile to my face.
Netherlands - My home country, so my opinion on the song is void
- Songs I wish made it to the final:
Portugal - No idea what that performance actually was, but I vibed hard with it.
Hungary - Just a great song.
Poland - I just love unique stuff and this one stood out to me.
So yeah, this is all that's coming back to me at the moment. Fun show, fun week, still love Eurovision. And a actual chance I might go to it since it's actually in my country for once, we'll see about that in a year though. Gonna do a rewatch with a couple of Americans later today, see how they react to all this nonsense, lol.
What are you talking about? The Nordic bloc vote is stronger than ever. And unlike Greece/Cyprus which have just one another to co-vote, the Nordic vote consistently goes to the Nordic countries which does skew the result. This is why I find the selective booing from the crowd unreasonable.
Netherlands winning was well deserved, that was a good performance and a great song. My partner thought i was nuts saying Slovenia had a decent song, but they did. Bit weird, but a 1/2 decent song from them this year. Still thinking about Iceland's performance, that was certainly something else. More weird than wonderful.
I'm still thinking that i;ve heard something similar to the San Marino song before, the chorus certainly was familiar and i can't put my finger on it.
I'm still thinking that i;ve heard something similar to the San Marino song before, the chorus certainly was familiar and i can't put my finger on it.
I need to listen to the Slovenia song again, with the screen off. Those dead eye stares completely ruined my ability to take it seriously.
They probably had more problems with the EBU then that, but no official statement came out from both parties I think. They had indeed better tracking record then before the public vote was introduced.
But it is exactly the same situation. Two countries that are very close culturally and have a tendency to vote for each other.
The Nordics have been going on like this pretty much as long as the contest has been going on.
Use "Total number of all points given to <country> from 1957 to 2019" on this site:
https://eschome.net/
Top 5 for Sweden:
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Finland
4. Iceland
5. UK
Top 5 for Norway:
1. Sweden
2. Denmark
3. Ireland
4. Iceland
5. Netherlands
(Finland were number 6)
Top 5 for Finland:
1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Estonia
5. UK
Top 5 for Denmark:
1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Netherlands
5. Ireland
Top 5 for Iceland:
1. Sweden
2. Denmark
3. Norway
4. Finland
5. Spaim
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Finally got off my ass and fixed the weird alignment issues of the flags being 32x32 by cutting down the height.
Also did the same to all countries that have participated in the past, and might participate in the future, regardless of the likelihood of that happening, so let me take you down memory and fortune telling lane. Let's start with countries that participated in the past:
Ukraine withdrew from the contest this year because of the controversy surrounding the contract they would have wanted the winner of the national selection to sign. After it was announced she would not participate for Ukraine, the second and third placed acts also rejected the offer by the Ukrainian broadcaster. Ukraine has confirmed wanting to return in 2020 though, so I consider them a technically active member.
Andorra has withdrawn after the 2009 contest, citing financial difficulties. In the past 10 years, voices in Andorra, including previous performers representing it, have become louder wanting the country's return to the contest, but the broadcaster can't afford participation - they nearly left the EBU even but they were able to negotiate remaining within the EBU.
Bosnia and Herzegovina has withdrawn after the 2016 contest (though having taken a break for a few years prior to that). They are in debt with the EBU and generally have financial difficulties, even though they very much want to come back to the contest.
Bulgaria has withdrawn after the 2018 contest. The Bulgarian broadcaster has gone through a restructuring, including dismissing the Eurovision delegation, and also mentioned financial difficulties as a potential problem. This is especially sad because Bulgaria has become a force to be reckoned with in recent years.
Luxembourg has been out of the contest since after 1993. Along with Italy, the EBU was trying very hard to have them come back, but Luxembourgois broadcaster RTL has absolutely no interest, already stating the struggle of smaller countries back in the 90s. There has been a petition from Luxemborgois people to have the country return to the contest, but RTL ignored that as well. Currently, there is no indication that Luxembourg will ever come back.
Monaco withdrew after the 2006 contest. They came back for 3 contests after over 20 years, did not qualify in the semi finals, and then cited just how bad the chances for small countries are to qualify as the main reason to withdraw. What makes matters more difficult is that the Monegasque broadcaster TMC got acquired by the French media holding group TF1, which might make a return more complicated.
Morocco withdrew after their single participation in 1980, where they only joined because Israel hadn't. A newer broadcaster expressed interest for the contest, but that has been a few years ago, and we haven't heard anything since.
Slovakia has been withdrawn since after the 2012 contest. They cite financial difficulties as the main factor, and have expressed interest in returning.
Turkey also has been out since after 2012. They are boycotting Eurovision because of the Big 5 system, the jury vote split, and also because of acts such as Conchita Wurst. As long as the conservatives and right wingers are in power in Turkey, it seems exceedingly unlikely for it to return.
Now for countries that almost took part but didn't.
Lebanon almost participated in 2005, even was featured on some promotional material, and a song and performer have been selected (it even is a pretty good song!). The EBU inquired if Lebanon was going to broadcast the Israeli entry, which they said they couldn't guarantee, and shortly after, withdrew. They have not expressed interest since then.
Tunisia was going to participate back in 1977, but withdrew for some reason and has not expressed any interest to debut since then.
And last section, countries that have not participated yet, nor almost, and have expressed interest.
One of the most likely debuts within the next few years, Kazakhstan has taken part in Junior Eurovision last year, expressed interest for the main version, and Jon Ola Sand, the executive supervisor of the contest, has stated that they are going to have a discussion whether Kazakhstan, an Associate EBU member, is going to be allowed to participate - apparently this is a discussion that might involve more than just the Kazakh participation.
Another very likely debut, perhaps as early as 2020, the national broadcaster of Kosovo joining the EBU is going to be discussed during the next few months. If they are accepted, which is likely as the EBU has expressed interest in having them along, Kosovo will be allowed to debut next year, or if not then due to time constraints, then very soon after.
Rumours of Liechtenstein debuting at the contest have been flying around for many years now, but the Liechtensteiner broadcaster is not a member of the EBU yet, and has cited that they have not been able to procure funds from the government to both join the EBU and participate in the contest as a result. Furthermore, the director who was the driving force behind a Liechtensteiner EBU membership and contest entry has passed away recently, making the debut of Liechtenstein even less likely.
Qatar is an EBU Associate member much like Kazakhstan, is quite enthusiastic about the contest, and has expressed strong interest about joining it. They also have explicitly mentioned that they would have no problem showing the Israeli entry, and I imagine that they are not entirely unlikely to debut if Kazakhstan is permitted to.
The regional broadcaster of Catalonia, while not an independent country, has brought up the argument that not being an independent country does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to join the EBU, as they do region-specific broadcasts in Catalan. The EBU said they are going to resolve this issue some time this year. That said, even if non-independent regions are going to be permitted in the EBU, the Spanish national broadcaster RTVE is going to be able to veto a membership of the Catalan broadcaster.
In a similar fashion, the Faroe Islands' regional broadcaster has brought up similar arguments to Catalonia, and also proposed a similar national selection format as the Danish one. I imagine that if regional broadcasters, even if not for independent nations, are allowed, then the Faroes are going to be one of the first new members, and will debut in the contest shortly after.
Greenland has expressed similar sentiments to the Faroes, and is in a similar boat as they are.
Final bit, I'm gonna lump all of these together:
Scotland, Wales and Gibraltar all have expressed interest in sending their own entries to the contest in the past, even though they had been denied on the grounds of the BBC representing them with the UK entry. However, both Wales and Scotland have participated in Eurovision Choir, and Wales also in the Junior Eurovision.
It is unlikely that any of these countries are going to be part of the contest any time soon.
Other countries that are technically eligible to join the contest but very likely aren't going to are the Vatican, Algeria, Libya, Egypt and Jordan.
And also, on a similar note, Australia has been allowed to participate until at least the 2023 contest.
Also did the same to all countries that have participated in the past, and might participate in the future, regardless of the likelihood of that happening, so let me take you down memory and fortune telling lane. Let's start with countries that participated in the past:
Now for countries that almost took part but didn't.
And last section, countries that have not participated yet, nor almost, and have expressed interest.
Final bit, I'm gonna lump all of these together:
Scotland, Wales and Gibraltar all have expressed interest in sending their own entries to the contest in the past, even though they had been denied on the grounds of the BBC representing them with the UK entry. However, both Wales and Scotland have participated in Eurovision Choir, and Wales also in the Junior Eurovision.
It is unlikely that any of these countries are going to be part of the contest any time soon.
Other countries that are technically eligible to join the contest but very likely aren't going to are the Vatican, Algeria, Libya, Egypt and Jordan.
And also, on a similar note, Australia has been allowed to participate until at least the 2023 contest.
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It's less about Brexit and more about the UK sending really bad songs and singers. Seriously, the UK has one of the best music industries in the world and this is what they send each year? That's deliberate self-sabotage. ;)
Similarly look at Germany, the memes say everyone hates Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest and it got in fact zero points from the public this year (even worse than the UK's 3 points), but when Germany actually sends a good entry, like Lena or the guy last year, they actually can reach first place or fourth place.
That isn't the bloc people wanted to introduce the protection for. In the end, they are only five countries and they tend to shift their bloc voting with the general consencus. They voted mostly for Sweden this time, like the general votes.
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To be fair, at the height of the bloc voting that the Balkans (Ex-Yugoslav countries, let's be real here) were accused of, it also was like 5 or 6 countries at most, and even then, it's not like all points always went to the most popular one there (usually Serbia), considering the relationships between the former Yugoslav countries are tense as well. Same goes for Russia and the CIS countries.
Those two along with the Nordics are the biggest voting blocs period. It's just that the Nordics have been around forever while the Eastern countries all debuted in the 90s (and a few in the early 2000s).
So what's everyone's final verdict? After all is said and done I think this year was... eh.
Duncan was a deserving winner, if only because he was one of the few singers to pull off the live performance. Out of the top countries only Russia and Sweden weren't clearly worse than the studio version. It's been said before but Shalva (the disabled semi 2 interval act) would likely have won the whole thing, and Ukraine would've had more than a good chance. Sadly I think Klemens' Grand Final performance takes the Even-Worse-Than-Madonna Award. How come only the worst performers of the night had the gall to call attention to Palestine? :(
But I did make some discoveries this year! Though his live performance didn't really translate in my opinion, Mahmood is a blessing. Slovenia's Zala Kralj certainly didn't translate well (partly because of the stare, partly because she didn't sing well) but I've been playing her music around bedtime lately and I'm totally into this stuff now. So soothing... oh and after hearing the studio version I finally understand the enthusiasm surrounding Norway! Man that song really works, shame it wasn't as good live.
Anyway, to anyone similarly disappointed, I invite you to think back to the Eurovision Dark Ages. I mean consider the top 3 in 2003:
Good god. No wonder we (Netherlands) gave up on Eurovision for the next decade. This must've been about the worst year ever, right? Either way we've come a long way. Some things never change though: UK is still in last place. :)
Duncan was a deserving winner, if only because he was one of the few singers to pull off the live performance. Out of the top countries only Russia and Sweden weren't clearly worse than the studio version. It's been said before but Shalva (the disabled semi 2 interval act) would likely have won the whole thing, and Ukraine would've had more than a good chance. Sadly I think Klemens' Grand Final performance takes the Even-Worse-Than-Madonna Award. How come only the worst performers of the night had the gall to call attention to Palestine? :(
But I did make some discoveries this year! Though his live performance didn't really translate in my opinion, Mahmood is a blessing. Slovenia's Zala Kralj certainly didn't translate well (partly because of the stare, partly because she didn't sing well) but I've been playing her music around bedtime lately and I'm totally into this stuff now. So soothing... oh and after hearing the studio version I finally understand the enthusiasm surrounding Norway! Man that song really works, shame it wasn't as good live.
Anyway, to anyone similarly disappointed, I invite you to think back to the Eurovision Dark Ages. I mean consider the top 3 in 2003:
Good god. No wonder we (Netherlands) gave up on Eurovision for the next decade. This must've been about the worst year ever, right? Either way we've come a long way. Some things never change though: UK is still in last place. :)