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Evolution 2019 - The Fighting Game Tournament of the Year

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
892
Always depressing to see. $14K for winning the biggest Tekken tournament ever just feels like nowhere near enough. And let’s not even get started on finishing top 8 and not winning enough to pay for your hotel room. I wish there was a way to get some real money behind the FGC, so people other than the absolute best in the world could actually do this for a living.

Edit - I was thinking about actual ways to help with this - they really should double or even triple the tournament entry fees. The venue fee keeps increasing to cover esports expenses, but we still have the same $10 entry fees we had in 2002. An extra $10 or even $20 per game is such a small percentage of the cost of an Evo weekend, but it would hugely increase the pot sizes and leave more for the competitors.
 
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Lua

Member
Aug 9, 2018
396
Apparently proto(the lucina main) has kidney stones, so he won't be competing in smashcon. But my god,how was he able to compete on that level with that situation? Everyone says that it hurts like nothing else.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
10,491
Like clockwork XD


There's a subset of Smash hardcore fans that were already antsy about P5 not coming to Switch and all the DLCs being 3rd party characters, having the EVO champion be a Joker main has got to be sending them over the edge
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,197
This is based on my Beta impressions, so it's perfectly fine for anyone to disagree, but the game feels a bit slow and the skill ceiling doesn't seem high enough for the long term. Right now, it feels like the only things that could qualify it as an EVO game are that it is new and the graphics look awesome, but it's missing something... It just doesn't feel like a very exciting title to play or watch compared to the competition. It's supposed to be this more considerate, slower footsie based style game with simpler execution, but as it stands I feel that Samurai Shodown does a much better job at covering that niche. If you have some minutes to spare, maybe check out the impressions from Maximilian or Rooflemonger on YouTube, I remember that, at the time, their opinions pretty much mirrored my own.

That is not to say the game won't be awesome, obviously. I am buying the hell out of it as soon as it comes out, and I'm 100% certain it will be a good game, just maybe not "EVO good". But as I've said before, it might all change between now and release, this is just my opinion based on the Beta and the most recent gameplay.
I’ve seen Max’s impression of the game and I don’t really agree with his takes. It seems to me that like wants the arcsys to throw in a half dozen or so sub-systems, meters, or mechanics into the game and in order to give it what he thinks is depth. But depth doesn’t actually come from those things.

For example look at BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle. It’s a game that feels very flexible when you touch it; it has several systems and mechanics you can explore and toy with. However this game is pretty fucking simple in actuality despite all of this. In neutral, you throw out a strong move that cover a lot of space that has minimal risk and max reward attached to it while you play an offensive assist. Get your opponent to block this and they’ll find themselves in a sandwich situation when you activate the crossgage leaving them to eat a bunch of mixups. That’s generally how neutral plays out in this game; applying those strong tools and avoiding it from the opponent.

Granblue Versus is different. It’s not a game that throws in a half or dozen so mechanics but it’s a game where the risk/reward isn’t as wild as Blazblue CTB. The tools aren’t going to kill you by themselves or lead to situations that’s gonna put you in advantage where your opponent can eat 5 or 7 different mixups. The game is more about how you the player can establish your presence on screen using your tools. That’s tied to the fact that your tools have sensible risk/reward attached. Like you aren’t going to get a corner carry combo that gives you oki off a full screen attack.

I think games like this have higher skill ceilings then your BBTags and that’s independent of their mechanics. What do you think determines the skill ceiling of a game?
 

lazybones18

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,274
It's good to finally be home. Bring on next year, though I wonder if they'll increase the number of main finals titles based on what could potentially be out by then
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,892
Like clockwork XD


There's a subset of Smash hardcore fans that were already antsy about P5 not coming to Switch and all the DLCs being 3rd party characters, having the EVO champion be a Joker main has got to be sending them over the edge
Some of those comments are even more ridiculous when you consider that Leo was still the best player before Joker was out
 

GTOAkira

Member
Sep 1, 2018
399
This is the case for every games. A lot of people will simply never give the credit to the player and will instead complain about the character. It happened to MenaRD after he won capcom cup, it happened to ProblemX and Luffy after they won Evo and its also happening to punk. ProblemX and Punk had a pretty nice talk about it where they talk about people and certains players simply dont want to admit that the player is better than them. They simply cant accept that.
 

Avengers23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
Why was there a late start on Sunday for SF V? Really killed my hype since I only had so much time, and I needed it to start pretty much on time.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,190
Anyone complaining about Joker should ask themselves why more people aren't using him to win tournaments.

Because I watched all of top 8 last night and I only saw one Joker.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
700
I mostly just watched SoulCalibur and Tekken. I've been following the competitive scenes for both over the past year. Tekken had some upsets and the pure force of nature that is Arslan Ash is an amazing sight to behold, but I think I enjoyed SoulCalibur's top 8 more.

The majors throughout the year have been dominated by a bunch of American players that didn't even make the top 8 at Evo. Kayane is a legend of course, but she had barely been a factor at the highest levels in this game up to this point. I wouldn't have believed we'd see Kayane in top 8 at Evo 2019 but no Linkorz, Party Wolf or Xephukai. Though to be fair, Saiyne and Blue God are also consistently among the top US players. I just thought Americans would make up like half the bracket because they're so active. And then the whole thing is won by a Japanese Voldo? Crazy.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,892
So according to the strs and not counting any secondaries, top64 in ultimate had placements from 32 different characters
 

Mzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
284
Portugal
I’ve seen Max’s impression of the game and I don’t really agree with his takes. It seems to me that like wants the arcsys to throw in a half dozen or so sub-systems, meters, or mechanics into the game and in order to give it what he thinks is depth. But depth doesn’t actually come from those things.

For example look at BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle. It’s a game that feels very flexible when you touch it; it has several systems and mechanics you can explore and toy with. However this game is pretty fucking simple in actuality despite all of this. In neutral, you throw out a strong move that cover a lot of space that has minimal risk and max reward attached to it while you play an offensive assist. Get your opponent to block this and they’ll find themselves in a sandwich situation when you activate the crossgage leaving them to eat a bunch of mixups. That’s generally how neutral plays out in this game; applying those strong tools and avoiding it from the opponent.

Granblue Versus is different. It’s not a game that throws in a half or dozen so mechanics but it’s a game where the risk/reward isn’t as wild as Blazblue CTB. The tools aren’t going to kill you by themselves or lead to situations that’s gonna put you in advantage where your opponent can eat 5 or 7 different mixups. The game is more about how you the player can establish your presence on screen using your tools. That’s tied to the fact that your tools have sensible risk/reward attached. Like you aren’t going to get a corner carry combo that gives you oki off a full screen attack.

I think games like this have higher skill ceilings then your BBTags and that’s independent of their mechanics. What do you think determines the skill ceiling of a game?
I agree with a most of what you've said, definitely, except the core premise that extra mechanics don't equal depth. That is literally the point of including more systems into a game. I don't know if you're into Smash Bros. or not, but that game series is living proof that the more movement and offensive options they removed, the worst the game turned into (on a gameplay level, we're not discussing sales here). Releasing Brawl was truly the darkest timeline, and I'm sure most folks can still remember how painfully boring some of those Smash EVO finals were to watch... Smash Ultimate still lacks certain things compared to Melee, but they've also added many new options, which makes the game a ton more fun to watch and play compared to Brawl and Smash 4.

Heck, if you want an easy example, just remove jumping from Smash. Or Street Fighter. Or any other fighter out there. Sure, you can still have an amazing game with almost nothing (props to you Divekick!), but will people keep playing it in the long run when more complex alternatives are available (sorry Divekick...)?

I don't believe for a second that Marvel Vs Capcom 2 would have endured as much as it did if it was the exact same game but one-on-one only, the 3v3 insanity is what gave it that special Mahvel charisma. Marvel Infinite kicked one character from the team, but made up for it with a ton of different mechanics which worked pretty well together (it's just a damn shame about everything else in that game... yuck), so I wouldn't call it simpler, despite said removal.

That doesn't mean games with less stuff in them are inherently worse, the thing is that sometimes, even in technically simpler games, a single variable can justify them being that way and make them great. I'll use Samurai Shodown as en example once more: The ridiculous amount of damage that everything does in that game is what gives its simpler systems meaning. I doubt that the game would be nearly as interesting as it is if matches lasted three or four times longer, it would take all of the excitement out of that specific formula. And even then, important mechanics exist that aren't apparent at all and are essential for the cohesion of the whole thing. A pretty interesting example for me is the timer stopping while Rage Explosion is active. If you took that one simple mechanic out, you would undoubtedly remove a layer of strategy from the game and make it less enjoyable, a mechanic which goes back into the whole "high damage" theme that Samurai Shodown is going for and makes it stand out among other fighters.

All of this to say that I feel something is currently missing from Granblue... That secret sauce, if you will, in order to provide some exciting matches worthy of an EVO game (yes, I'm also aware that Cygames money will get it in there, but I'm talking solely from a gameplay point of view). It feels to me they've made it simpler just for the sake of being easier to get into (and grab that Granblue RPG audience), which is a trend that I am pretty much against when it comes to fighting games because it never amounts to anything in the long run. Maybe something as basic as increasing the game speed could be enough to fix my problems with it, it is definitely a bit on the slow side for me.

Holy wall of text Batman :l Sorry about that lol This stuff is fun to discuss. Anyway, I am fully aware that it's WAY too early to declare this game great or terrible, I'm definitely gonna grab myself a copy, as should any fighting or animation fan out there, but based on my time with it so far, it feels a bit like a reverse Marvel Vs Capcom: Infinite situation here, just not as drastic as that one was. Great looks but lacking a bit of substance, which could get stale quickly if it doesn't have a ton of characters to go with it (and it likely won't, by the looks of that animation... that stuff doesn't come cheap).
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,197
I agree with a most of what you've said, definitely, except the core premise that extra mechanics don't equal depth. That is literally the point of including more systems into a game. I don't know if you're into Smash Bros. or not, but that game series is living proof that the more movement and offensive options they removed, the worst the game turned into (on a gameplay level, we're not discussing sales here). Releasing Brawl was truly the darkest timeline, and I'm sure most folks can still remember how painfully boring some of those Smash EVO finals were to watch... Smash Ultimate still lacks certain things compared to Melee, but they've also added many new options, which makes the game a ton more fun to watch and play compared to Brawl and Smash 4.

Heck, if you want an easy example, just remove jumping from Smash. Or Street Fighter. Or any other fighter out there. Sure, you can still have an amazing game with almost nothing (props to you Divekick!), but will people keep playing it in the long run when more complex alternatives are available (sorry Divekick...)?

I don't believe for a second that Marvel Vs Capcom 2 would have endured as much as it did if it was the exact same game but one-on-one only, the 3v3 insanity is what gave it that special Mahvel charisma. Marvel Infinite kicked one character from the team, but made up for it with a ton of different mechanics which worked pretty well together (it's just a damn shame about everything else in that game... yuck), so I wouldn't call it simpler, despite said removal.

That doesn't mean games with less stuff in them are inherently worse, the thing is that sometimes, even in technically simpler games, a single variable can justify them being that way and make them great. I'll use Samurai Shodown as en example once more: The ridiculous amount of damage that everything does in that game is what gives its simpler systems meaning. I doubt that the game would be nearly as interesting as it is if matches lasted three or four times longer, it would take all of the excitement out of that specific formula. And even then, important mechanics exist that aren't apparent at all and are essential for the cohesion of the whole thing. A pretty interesting example for me is the timer stopping while Rage Explosion is active. If you took that one simple mechanic out, you would undoubtedly remove a layer of strategy from the game and make it less enjoyable, a mechanic which goes back into the whole "high damage" theme that Samurai Shodown is going for and makes it stand out among other fighters.

All of this to say that I feel something is currently missing from Granblue... That secret sauce, if you will, in order to provide some exciting matches worthy of an EVO game (yes, I'm also aware that Cygames money will get it in there, but I'm talking solely from a gameplay point of view). It feels to me they've made it simpler just for the sake of being easier to get into (and grab that Granblue RPG audience), which is a trend that I am pretty much against when it comes to fighting games because it never amounts to anything in the long run. Maybe something as basic as increasing the game speed could be enough to fix my problems with it, it is definitely a bit on the slow side for me.

Holy wall of text Batman :l Sorry about that lol This stuff is fun to discuss. Anyway, I am fully aware that it's WAY too early to declare this game great or terrible, I'm definitely gonna grab myself a copy, as should any fighting or animation fan out there, but based on my time with it so far, it feels a bit like a reverse Marvel Vs Capcom: Infinite situation here, just not as drastic as that one was. Great looks but lacking a bit of substance, which could get stale quickly if it doesn't have a ton of characters to go with it (and it likely won't, by the looks of that animation... that stuff doesn't come cheap).
Well, when I say mechanics I don't mean things like jumping lol. I'm speaking more to the things Max was talking about like SFV's V-System for example. Going back to my BBTag example that game has a lot of stuff in it with the tag system, cross-gage, resonance, and what not. But at the end of the day the game is very simple i.e. one dimensional because the game's neutral boils down to doing something strong, calling assist, and making your opponent block it so you can activate cross-gage and run a dozen mixups on them. So my point here is that while that game has stuff the stuff isn't what makes it deep in fact it's a rather straightforward simple game. Conversely in the case of Granblue I think that game has the potential to be pretty deep i.e. multi-dimensional because it isn't a game where very strong neutral options so players have to use all their tools to establish themselves in neutral.

I think we have different definition of simple and easy. I think games became easier when you put shit like crush counters and an attack priority system in it. When you make jump-ins strong and anti-airs weak. When you can confirm off of full screen normals for a full combo. Basically when things get more reward for minimal risk.
 

JusDoIt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,014
South Central Los Angeles
Evo 2019 Championship Controllers

Smash Ultimate - gamepad (Gamecube)
Tekken 7 - arcade stick
SFV: AE - stick
BlazBlue: CTB - stick
Mortal Kombat 11 - pad (stock PS4)
Samurai Shodown - stick
Dragon Ball FighterZ - stick
UNIST - stick
Soul Calibur VI - pad (stock PS4?)
 

SynthBpm

Member
Oct 30, 2017
72
Silver Spring
all this conversation about more vs less systems brings me back to a main point i have, literally everyone in the fgc should play. not that it should be the biggest game, but like it deserves real playtime from everyone who loves fgs. as far as minimal systems fgs go nothing beats Fantasy Strike in its balance of ease to pick up and strategic depth stemming from how well balanced all the options are. i just frikkin love that game so much. i only have like 300 hours on it, need to play it more.
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,197
all this conversation about more vs less systems brings me back to a main point i have, literally everyone in the fgc should play. not that it should be the biggest game, but like it deserves real playtime from everyone who loves fgs. as far as minimal systems fgs go nothing beats Fantasy Strike in its balance of ease to pick up and strategic depth stemming from how well balanced all the options are. i just frikkin love that game so much. i only have like 300 hours on it, need to play it more.
When I see it on sale it’s mine
 

ShinobiBk

Member
Dec 28, 2017
6,889
Evo 2019 Championship Controllers

Smash Ultimate - gamepad (Gamecube)
Tekken 7 - arcade stick
SFV: AE - stick
BlazBlue: CTB - stick
Mortal Kombat 11 - pad (stock PS4)
Samurai Shodown - stick
Dragon Ball FighterZ - stick
UNIST - stick
Soul Calibur VI - pad (stock PS4?)
Only one of these that was a surprise was Soul Calibur VI being won on pad by a Japanese player. I can't recall the last time I saw a Japanese player winning a huge tournament on pad. I always associate them with stick.

Something I was thinking of was I think the new Hitbox Crossup or whatever it's called would be amazing for Smash. That game is played using 2 sticks anyway and I think using the hitbox buttons for tilts or smash attacks while using the stick for movement would be cool. Definitely something I'd be interested in trying, even though I can't play on stick at all.
 

Allyougame

Member
Oct 25, 2017
484
There's a subset of Smash hardcore fans that were already antsy about P5 not coming to Switch and all the DLCs being 3rd party characters, having the EVO champion be a Joker main has got to be sending them over the edge
This is along the same lines as whining about the "Evo ended after Tekken 7" comments. Why spend any part of your day whatsoever caring about what losers think/say?

I just don't understand this mentality.
 

JusDoIt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,014
South Central Los Angeles
Something I was thinking of was I think the new Hitbox Crossup or whatever it's called would be amazing for Smash. That game is played using 2 sticks anyway and I think using the hitbox buttons for tilts or smash attacks while using the stick for movement would be cool. Definitely something I'd be interested in trying, even though I can't play on stick at all.
You might be on to something. Definitely looks more intuitive than the controversial Smashbox. The main problem would be the analogue inputs, I suppose. I wonder if it would ever be tournament legal to see somebody try it.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,252
Evo 2019 Championship Controllers

Smash Ultimate - gamepad (Gamecube)
Tekken 7 - arcade stick
SFV: AE - stick
BlazBlue: CTB - stick
Mortal Kombat 11 - pad (stock PS4)
Samurai Shodown - stick
Dragon Ball FighterZ - stick
UNIST - stick
Soul Calibur VI - pad (stock PS4?)
Sonic Fox uses a modified Ps4 controller afaik. It has better D pad and shoulder buttons.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,795
Tekken 7 was definitely the best top 8. The whole Arslan Ash vs. Knee rivalry is something you couldn't even write in a movie it's so crazy
Agreed, that match and the build up to it was perfection.

I love fighting games. Thanks for watching. Hope you liked our show and enjoyed my commentary with Aris.
Having you and Aris commentate top 8 is always a treat. You both did an amazing job and have pure talent in getting the audience involved in the excitement.
 

Deltadan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,108
Evo 2019 Championship Controllers

Smash Ultimate - gamepad (Gamecube)
Tekken 7 - arcade stick
SFV: AE - stick
BlazBlue: CTB - stick
Mortal Kombat 11 - pad (stock PS4)
Samurai Shodown - stick
Dragon Ball FighterZ - stick
UNIST - stick
Soul Calibur VI - pad (stock PS4?)
Interesting showing for sticks.

I'm actually surprised Arslan used a stick instead of a pad. Usually you only ever see Korean and Japanese players in top 8 with them.