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Deleted member 2793

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How would you feel about scattering the DC properties from Warner Bros to other studios?
Sure, but they aren't currently as big and monopolistic in the movie market as Disney, a company that just bought a direct competitor and can basically force theater chains to do whatever they want.


Can't believe I'm defending a billion dollar company here, but from a business perspective Disney was investing way more in Spider-Man then they should while Sony got a boatload of money for nearly no work.

Both should just meet halfway.
"nearly no work"? They literally paid for and made these movies. Disney got all merch money and a popular character in their team up flicks without having to pay a cent to Sony.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
Sure, but they aren't currently as big and monopolistic in the movie market as Disney, a company that just bought a direct competitor and can basically force theater chains to do whatever they want.



"nearly no work"? They literally paid for and made these movies. Disney got all merch money and a popular character in their team up flicks without having to pay a cent to Sony.

Wasn't it that Marvel paid for the movies and only got 5% of the take?

Iirc that is where the discussion and subsequent breakup came from.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,744
Wasn't it that Marvel paid for the movies and only got 5% of the take?

Iirc that is where the discussion and subsequent breakup came from.
Sony funded the movies. That said, the 5% take was only first dollar profits if I recall, which is likely why Far From Home was released on a Tuesday. Disney basically got peanuts for the movies. It's not surprising they wanted a better deal.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
As much as you might want Stan Lee's creations under one roof, I don't think Disney should acquire any more power than they already have. I'd actually be all for the dissolution of the MCU properties if it meant Disney will have less influence.

The idea that the MCU needs to be broken up because Disney's done everything right with it and turned it into the biggest success Hollywood has ever seen is fucking asinine.

Do you hear yourself?
 

Deleted member 2793

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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Marvel Studios made the movies. Sony did the distribution and marketing.
Jon Watts isn't a Marvel Studios employee, nor are most of the people who worked in the movie. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's weird to say it's a "Marvel Studios" movie as if their people did the whole thing.

Sony funded the movies. That said, the 5% take was only first dollar profits if I recall, which is likely why Far From Home was released on a Tuesday. Disney basically got peanuts for the movies. It's not surprising they wanted a better deal.
They didn't pay for anything and got a character that could be used for free in other movies + merch money (that is MORE than the box office money). All that without paying for his movies. Sony got the peanuts.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
Sony funded the movies. That said, the 5% take was only first dollar profits if I recall, which is likely why Far From Home was released on a Tuesday. Disney basically got peanuts for the movies. It's not surprising they wanted a better deal.

Goddamn capitalism lol, just fucking spilt the funding and the profits.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
And there are no team up movies in the horizon for Marvel, since they don't want to drive them into the ground, so suddenly free guest appearances aren't all that beneficial.

They didn't pay for anything and got a character that could be used for free in other movies + merch money (that is MORE than the box office money). All that without paying for his movies. Sony got the peanuts.

The merchandising money has nothing to do with the current Spider-man MCU contract though. It was from a previous negotiation before the Amazing Spider-Man movies.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,536
Sure, but they aren't currently as big and monopolistic in the movie market as Disney, a company that just bought a direct competitor and can basically force theater chains to do whatever they want.



"nearly no work"? They literally paid for and made these movies. Disney got all merch money and a popular character in their team up flicks without having to pay a cent to Sony.

Sony didn't make those movies. Marvel had full creative control. They were made just the same as every other MCU movie. Sony paid and got 95% of the movie's income, but they are not subsantially evolved in the creative process. It was an absolutely incredible Deal for Sony - they got to turn a troubled Franchise with a lot of potential into literally their most successful movie they ever released, without actually having to make the movie themselves. Spider-Man being part of the MCU is guaranteed income for Sony, and I figure the success of Venom made them forget very fast how easy it is to tank a franchise even as inherently popular as Spider-Man.

They basically got the license to get a substantial part of the profit of the most successful movie franchise of all time in form of the MCU, while also getting to further make movies like Into The Spiderverse and Venom themselves. Either way you look at it, I really don't see how you could argue that "Sony made these movies". They didn't. They made Into the Spider-Verse and Venom. Disney made Homecoming and Far From Home. That was the entire point of the deal.
 
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Deleted member 2793

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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
And there are no team up movies in the horizon for Marvel, since they don't want to drive them into the ground, so suddenly free guest appearances aren't all that beneficial.
He showed up first in a Captain America movie and helped bump that movie to over a billion. If they signed another deal they could have him with similar appearances in other movies.

The merchandising money has nothing to do with the current Spider-man MCU contract though. It was from a previous negotiation before the Amazing Spider-Man movies.
Merch goes up when you have a new blockbuster movie coming out featuring the character. The idea that DIsney got nothing from these Spider-man movies is just weird. They weren't doing it for altruism, they did it because it was financially good for them.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,490
Indonesia
Jon Watts isn't a Marvel Studios employee, nor are most of the people who worked in the movie. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's weird to say it's a "Marvel Studios" movie as if their people did the whole thing.


They didn't pay for anything and got a character that could be used for free in other movies + merch money (that is MORE than the box office money). All that without paying for his movies. Sony got the peanuts.
People keep bringing up merchandise money, as far as I know, the merchandise rights have nothing to do with Spider-man mcu deal. Disney got that earlier when Sony is having trouble, not unlike how Sony get Spider-man rights back when Marvel is in trouble.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
He showed up first in a Captain America movie and helped bump that movie to over a billion. If they signed another deal they could have him with similar appearances in other movies.

Although that was a Captain America movie, it had a big ensemble cast like an Avengers movie, just without character focus (outside of Iron Man). At least for the next few years there doesn't seem to be anything like that based on what's known right now.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,744
The merchandising money has nothing to do with the current Spider-man MCU contract though. It was from a previous negotiation before the Amazing Spider-Man movies.
The merchandise contract also stipulates Disney needs to pay a yearly sum to Sony ($30m), so while they're still missing out on a huge revenue stream, Sony still get paid - most likely around a similar ballpark, if not more than Disney see from the Spidey box office take.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,630
Aww maan.

They wanted the worldbuilding and good will without the hard work :p

Welp, they played themselves...

It really is kinda funny when you look at how Sony was operating in regards to the MCU. In their ideal scenario they would have complete creative control of the Spidey properties while simultaneously leveraging the setting (and thus worldbuilding) and branding (and thus goodwill) of the MCU. And Feige, a very hands-on captain of this 10-year ship, would have to just deal and figure around it.

It's the kind of cajones you only get through sheer mind-numbing incompetence.

Looking at the director and screenwriter credits, lol no.

The screenwriters were responsible for Dracula Untold, Gods of Egypt and the new Power Rangers film.

Oh God, I just almost threw up in my mouth.

Oh God this movie's gonna suck.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
How would you feel about scattering the DC properties from Warner Bros to other studios?
Do it.
The idea that the MCU needs to be broken up because Disney's done everything right with it and turned it into the biggest success Hollywood has ever seen is fucking asinine.

Do you hear yourself?
I love the MCU but I'm not going to pretend it isn't making an already powerful megacorp even more powerful and influential. It's a collection of fiction at the end of the day and many of the movies made are formulaic and focused on spectacle and easily digested content.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
He showed up first in a Captain America movie and helped bump that movie to over a billion. If they signed another deal they could have him with similar appearances in other movies

The idea that Spider-Man is responsible for boosting a movie with the Avengers in it over a billion dollars is wild lol
 

Deleted member 2793

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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Although that was a Captain America movie, it had a big ensemble cast like an Avengers movie, just without character focus (outside of Iron Man). At least for the next few years there doesn't seem to be anything like that based on what's known right now.
They're making a Doctor Strange movie with Scarlet Witch. There's no reason to think they couldn't just have Spidey in other movies. Say they decide to make a Ms. Marvel movie, he could potentially show up there. Or maybe he could be in another movie featuring a NY-based hero.

But my main thing is that the idea that Disney got "nothing" of Spider-man in the MCU makes no sense at all when they were literally profiting out of it.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,490
Indonesia
It sucks that stand alone Spider-man movie ends in cliffhanger, but Feige really use Spider-man in his 3 Marvel movie appearance to the maximum effect.

The emotional pay off for Tony finding Peter, losing him and getting him back is worth making 2 solo Spider-man movie with no pay
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
I love the MCU but I'm not going to pretend it isn't making an already powerful megacorp even more powerful and influential. It's a collection of fiction at the end of the day and many of the movies made are formulaic and focused on spectacle and easily digested content

None of this has anything to do with anything.

The idea that a movie property needs to be broken up because someone made it so competently that it succeeded is stupid. It's absolutely stupid, and doesn't get to the heart of why Disney is so powerful; they're really great at making IP people care about, which brings money in hand over fist.

Stripping companies of their IP because they made them popular is a complete non-starter. We can absolutely have a conversation about how to prevent companies from becoming too powerful, but that's not a method that's gonna work.
 

Deleted member 17388

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Oct 27, 2017
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's weird to say it's a "Marvel Studios" movie as if their people did the whole thing.
I might be wrong too, but it's the same for the other MCU films. Not all the other directors are full-time employees, they get contracts per project basis.

I guess the best analogy would be: Bayonetta 2 :v

While technically a Nintendo first-party game, because they funded it, and had it supervised by Hitoshi Yamagami (A Nintendo employee)
And probably PlatinumGames (The developers) hired contractors for graphic and sound design. Who knows?
But at its core, Bayonetta 2 is a PlatinumGames production. (And Homecoming and Far from Home: Marvel Studios production but "first-party" for Sony)

He showed up first in a Captain America movie and helped bump that movie to over a billion. If they signed another deal they could have him with similar appearances in other movies.
It was the other way around.
Civil War would have done +1B without Spider-Man, he actually wasn't a big drawer due Sony's handling.
It took Homecoming, and the other Avengers to correct course. It finally paid off with Far from Home.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
None of this has anything to do with anything.

The idea that a movie property needs to be broken up because someone made it so competently that it succeeded is stupid. It's absolutely stupid, and doesn't get to the heart of why Disney is so powerful; they're really great at making IP people care about, which brings money in hand over fist.

Stripping companies of their IP because they made them popular is a complete non-starter. We can absolutely have a conversation about how to prevent companies from becoming too powerful, but that's not a method that's gonna work.
They are also great at destroying said properties with horrific sequels and remakes nobody asked for. At least recognize that Disney is a dangerously huge monolith in the entertainment industry.
 

Deleted member 2793

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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
None of this has anything to do with anything.

The idea that a movie property needs to be broken up because someone made it so competently that it succeeded is stupid. It's absolutely stupid, and doesn't get to the heart of why Disney is so powerful; they're really great at making IP people care about, which brings money in hand over fist.

Stripping companies of their IP because they made them popular is a complete non-starter. We can absolutely have a conversation about how to prevent companies from becoming too powerful, but that's not a method that's gonna work.
"their IP" is funny when they literally didn't even create these characters. They bought them. Iron Man, Spider-man, etc all existed before the MCU. And even the MCU itself existed before Disney. They are a megacorporation, not the actual makers of Star Wars and Marvel.

And honestly I care more about a diverse and competitive entertainment market more than I think "Disney deserves it". No one deserves a monopoly, even more when they're the ones behind the push for absurd copyright laws, bullying of movie theaters, insane buyouts and now pushing for stuff like this.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Can't believe I'm defending a billion dollar company here, but from a business perspective Disney was investing way more in Spider-Man then they should while Sony got a boatload of money for nearly no work.

Both should just meet halfway.
Like I won't won't be defending any company here but fiege himself approached sony earlier and Disney agreed to the deal. Disney was also getting spiderman top freely use in its team ensemble movies. Now they don't have avengers movies coming out and saw far from home and got greedy. But toy are right they should at least move forward because I liked spider man in mcu even tough home coming was disappointing
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
They are also great at destroying said properties with horrific sequels and remakes nobody asked for. At least recognize that Disney is a dangerously huge monolith in the entertainment industry.

Disney is alarmingly huge, but the bolded has nothing to do with anything.

You're arguing they should be broken up because you don't like some of their movies. You hear how stupid that sounds, right?

"their IP" is funny when they literally didn't even create these characters. They bought them. Iron Man, Spider-man, etc all existed before the MCU. And even the MCU itself existed before Disney. They are a megacorporation, not the actual makers of Star Wars and Marvel.

And honestly I care more about a diverse and competitive entertainment market more than I think "Disney deserves it". No one deserves a monopoly, even more when they're the ones behind the push for absurd copyright laws, bullying of movie theaters, insane buyouts and now pushing for stuff like this.

I'm not saying Disney deserves anything. I'm saying arguing that their IP should be broken up because they're too popular doesn't make any sense. Because it doesn't.

Nobody is preventing anyone else from creating their own IP to put out into the world. Disney is not a monopoly, and never will be. If you think they are, or are capable of becoming one, you don't know what the word means and shouldn't be having this conversation.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
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Nov 1, 2017
9,657
Disney is alarmingly huge, but the bolded has nothing to do with anything.

You're arguing they should be broken up because you don't like some of their movies. You hear how stupid that sounds, right?
This is textbook strawman dude. That wasn't at all what I've been saying.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,897
I guarantee you they've learned nothing. These twits want to make like six or seven Spidey-adjacent movies starring individual bit characters. They're already shitting on Lord and Miller's work by wanting to do multiple Spider-Verse spinoffs and didn't even consult with them about it.

They haven't learned anything. They're the exact same fools they've always been.
This is so absolutely wrong.

deadline.com

Phil Lord & Chris Miller Ink Mega Deal With Sony Pictures TV, Will Develop Spider-Man Universe TV Series

Oscar-winning writers/directors/producers Phil Lord and Chris Miller have signed a massive five-year overall deal with Sony Pictures Television.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
115,431

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,744
I love Lord and Miller, but their production credits won't necessarily amount to much. They also produced the Lego Ninjago movie, which was pretty bad.
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,869
Is Sony still trying to sell their film division behind the scenes or is that not a thing anymore?
I keep hearing that the film division is going to get bought out eventually...
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,897

Shazz

The Fallen
Nov 10, 2017
465
As much as i love the Raimi films (1 and 2), i really dont know how Hollands iteration of Spider-man will work w/o the MCU. He's deeply invested in it now, the Raimi films were great at the wholesome Spider-man solo experiences but Hollands iteration really shows the bigger side of the world Spider-man resides in. They'll really have to ignore everything from the past 2 standalone outings including some characters, suits(iron spider ;( ), peters own characterization due to iron man and the avengers. I guess the curse of the third Spider-man movie is real. I still hope that a both sony and disney can reach a deal, it really sucks.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
Sure, but they aren't currently as big and monopolistic in the movie market as Disney, a company that just bought a direct competitor and can basically force theater chains to do whatever they want.



"nearly no work"? They literally paid for and made these movies. Disney got all merch money and a popular character in their team up flicks without having to pay a cent to Sony.

For the bolded, this is actually very untrue. Warner Bros. is closer to a monopoly in the entertainment industry on account that it's also part of a telecomm company. This means that they control a significant amount of production as well as the means of distribution and access for a great deal of movies, as being an ISP, they have the ability to influence the level of access to competitors' content in the digital market. Not to mention, they're currently pressuring theaters (along with the help of Universal, which is owned by fellow ISP Comcast) to cut down on the amount of time between when a movie premieres in theaters and when it can appear in home markets, including digital, with the aim of reducing it to a matter of weeks.

Secondly, Sony received yearly royalty payments from Disney of at least 30 million dollars, with more being paid depending upon how well each movie with Spider-Man performed. They very much did NOT get "not even a cent".
 

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,457
The Rapscallion
Split up Marvel properties because people like them too much...

Lol wtf, basically punish them for making movies a majority of people enjoy. As much as y'all want to push Disney as being this monopoly it just isn't true. Despite how you might feel as an individual, a majority of people go see these films because they like them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,643
If I thought Sony could do this alone without fucking it up, I wouldn't mind so much MCU Spidey going his own way and continuing the same storyline but without the teamups. As long as it still followed up Far From Home's ending.
But the thing is I don't trust Sony to pull that off. At all. And I don't even know if they're allowed to follow up events that took place in the MCU.
I just hope real bad they work something out.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
It's about the general world building , scene setting, and character development that happens related o the MCU in those 5 movies prior to the bust, which was a LOT

It's definitely not as simple as which MCU characters can and cannot now appear in the film! Wow.
I'm not seeing it. All his supporting cast will be there, his rogue gallery, the New York setting. Unless you want another random MCU character to make a cameo or Peter to never get over Tony and talk about him constantly I don't see it making much difference. Iron Man and Fury were some of the weakest parts of homecoming and FFH, it will be better to have a self contained Spider-Man film.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
Spider-Man is the face of Marvel. One of his longest running series was literally about him teaming up with characters from all over the MU. The character is well known for his friendships with Johnny Storm and how he plays off of people like Wolverine. He's so much more than just himself and Spider-Man only heroes and villains. People who are disappointed that that can't be realized on screen are perfectly justified.
 

Deleted member 49482

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Nov 8, 2018
3,302
Spider-Man is by far my favorite superhero. My sister and I were obsessed with the first Tobey Maguire movie came out when I was in high school, so much so that we named our dog Tobey.

I was really looking forward to the younger Spider-Man that we could watch grow and evolve in the context of the sprawling MCU, which offered the closest movie equivalent to the comics universe that we'll ever see.

But I'm just totally disenchanted with this news. At most, Sony live-action Spider-Man movies will be rentals/streaming for me. I really have no interest in whatever universe Sony is concocting. They've lost my goodwill after Spider-Man 3 and the Andrew Garfield movies. I suppose I'll be sticking with the MCU from here on out. Maybe Black Panther can be my Spider-Man substitute?
 

ThatMeanScene

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,844
Miami, FL
I still don't understand the Raimi obsession. Those movies were decent back then. But compared to the comic book films we've gotten since then those Raimi films are forgettable, IMO.
 

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,457
The Rapscallion
Raimi wouldn't even come back in this situation. Sony pushed him out once already, so the people who want Sony making Spider-Man movies only baffle me. They've already shown they'll go with what they think will make money rather than what's best for the film. Even then after SM3 Raimi still wanted to try to make SM4 and they pushed him out for a reboot.

Imagine having faith in Sony at this point. They're not gonna be hands off like they were with Spider-Verse, the stakes are too high
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
They could always strike a deal so they can use the MCU connections to end the story. It can probably be licensed at least for one movie so that they close the Far From Home cliffhanger properly. I kind of doubt there will be a reboot or that it will be forgotten or clumsily written around characters and events they are not legally allowed to reference. Licensing seems the way to go for a final movie before doing an EU with Venom and friends.

Considering all of the content that is coming from Disney (TV series and movies) and the success they had at the box office with Black Panther and Captain Marvel they clearly don't need Spiderman much. Spiderman was anchored to Stark in the MCU and he's gone. There's also no Avengers movie coming anytime soon in the next phase so once again they are not losing much anytime soon.

Disney also get all of the merchandising money and this is pretty much where Spiderman shines.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,606
I still don't understand the Raimi obsession. Those movies were decent back then. But compared to the comic book films we've gotten since then those Raimi films are forgettable, IMO.
Spider Man 2 only got dethroned as the best Spidey movie last year by Into the Spiderverse.

Raimi has such a good rep because 1 and 2 were and still are soooooo very good
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
For the bolded, this is actually very untrue. Warner Bros. is closer to a monopoly in the entertainment industry on account that it's also part of a telecomm company. This means that they control a significant amount of production as well as the means of distribution and access for a great deal of movies, as being an ISP, they have the ability to influence the level of access to competitors' content in the digital market. Not to mention, they're currently pressuring theaters (along with the help of Universal, which is owned by fellow ISP Comcast) to cut down on the amount of time between when a movie premieres in theaters and when it can appear in home markets, including digital, with the aim of reducing it to a matter of weeks.

Secondly, Sony received yearly royalty payments from Disney of at least 30 million dollars, with more being paid depending upon how well each movie with Spider-Man performed. They very much did NOT get "not even a cent".
Disney has monopolistic tendencies, but they aren't the only one of course, they aren't a monopoly "yet", but they try their best to try to grow and boss the whole industry. But it's hard to say they aren't already way too big for the health of the movie industry. Their dominance of the box office grows every year in ridiculous ways that make them most of the yearly top 10 and that's just isn"t "they deserve it" when a lot of this comes from things they bought (that already had pre-existing fanbases and success) and when other creators make as good or even better movies than Disney, that only has interest in making conventional family flicks.

This isn't just me talking, a lot of people bring up how a too dominant Disney is bad for the industry. I know Sony would do the same if they had the chance, but at the moment the one that doesn't need support for aquisitions and more power is Disney.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
Disney has monopolistic tendencies, but they aren't the only one of course, they aren't a monopoly "yet", but they try their best to try to grow and boss the whole industry. But it's hard to say they aren't already way too big for the health of the movie industry. Their dominance of the box office grows every year in ridiculous ways that make them most of the yearly top 10 and that's just isn"t "they deserve it" when a lot of this comes from things they bought (that already had pre-existing fanbases and success) and when other creators make as good or even better movies than Disney, that only has interest in making conventional family flicks.

This isn't just me talking, a lot of people bring up how a too dominant Disney is bad for the industry. I know Sony would do the same if they had the chance, but at the moment the one that doesn't need support for aquisitions and more power is Disney.

If those are your primary concerns when it comes to what kinds of influence over media are most important, there's nothing one can really say. But your idea of the kind of content Disney produces is incredibly limited and doesn't reflect reality.