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Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
I thought this was kind of interesting, and probably worth its own thread.

Mat now runs the US division of NPD, but a quick look at his LinkedIn says he used to work as a high ranking executive at Warner Bros and (much earlier) Activision, both well known for their microtransactions.

 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
I don't think many will be all that surprised devs can be every bit as greedy as publishers.
 

Arsenic13

Member
Nov 11, 2017
74
It entirely makes sense for developers to know best how to intrinsically tie these transactions into gameplay, but push back from publishers is a surprising statement.
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
That's... not what I expected. I expected pubs to be way more aggressive than devs. Devs do it for the incentives I guess?
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'll copy and dump my comment from the SW topic here because I think Nirolak has the right idea giving this its own topic. It'll be interesting to see if Jason responds as well.

I don't doubt some devs are behind it as well. Everyone wants an even better car, an even bigger house and even more shiny shit to surround themselves with. Look at how quickly PUBG got loot boxes and MTs implemented when it started exploding in popularity.

People like money. Money is often the pursuit of happiness for many. While publishers often get the brunt as they're stereotyped as suits in boardrooms all drinking whisky and chuckling sinisterly about their latest yachts and how the shareholders want their millions, many devs, especially higher-ups in dev positions, will be GaaS'ing the fuck out of their projects as well. While it's unlikely Bobby Kotick kicks back and gives a shit about The Last Guardian, even people in positions of being "gamers" working in the industry can still get $ $ in their eyes and stampede off after doing everything possible to turn their "art project" into a whale slayer.

The balance between exploitation and being happy making a good living is what is getting totally out of balance with some of these games. Genuinely turning paid products into F2P games is understandably pissing off many gamers who hand over thousands each year to their hobby. When some games start behaving totally like a 2nd job, the fun starts to stop.

In competitive FPS games some devs need to remember many of us poured hours into CS/TFC without any fancy bells and whistles around "progression". It was about slick gameplay mixed with a series of individual experiences of each playthrough a map. Teamwork, individual skill and winning the CTF/Death Match round. That was the gameplay/progression loop that gave thousands of hours of fun. I actually ditched TF2 when Valve ruined it.

Not obsessing over clothing, hats, crystals and gems, booster packs, cards or whatever other GaaS money exploitation system gets rammed in. In the case of SW, legitimate P2W.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
I wonder what he means with "devs".

Sounds like "project manager trying to get a big bonus".

I don't think a game designer or programmer would spend their time thinking about this stuff.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Hell, I would want to make as much money on a game I made as I could without compromising my morals too much.

The struggle!
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
When people have jobs, bonuses and paychecks at stake they will push the boundaries as far as possible to get their money.

I'm not shocked. Whether it's developers or publishers, everyone is human.
 

Abriael

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,605
Milano - Italy
It's no surprise to me. Developers want to make money like everyone else. They're also those who know their games best, so it's pretty normal that they would know how to best make money out of them.
 

yuraya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,449
Devs are the ones who design the game. So it shouldn't be too surprising that they have all the evil ideas when it comes to this stuff.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I can believe this. Just reading that EA dev's tweets and responses and how they don't believe what Battlefront 2 is doing, by definition, is not pay to win at all. Though it very clearly is pay to win. I don't doubt this stuff has become ingrained in their work culture.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Hell, I would want to make as much money on a game I made as I could without compromising my morals too much.

The struggle!
Realistically, it is really up to gamers to push back and say enough is enough because human nature makes people want to squeeze the lemon as much as you will let them.
 
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Nirolak

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
That's... not what I expected. Devs do it for the incentives I guess?
To my understanding, generally publishers give developers a bunch of information about how microtransactions work, and let them get additional bonuses if they reach certain profit or revenue targets, but frequently leave it up to the developer to decide what to do (and decide if they're even going to include them at all). Oftentimes the requirement is more just "We want some kind of post launch monetization," be that DLC, microtransactions, otherwise.

Developers then implement what they want to, but publishers can push back if they think the idea will hurt the game's long term sales or earning potential. Obviously given that some aggressive microtransaction schemes are going through, they're not pushing back all the time, and some publishers do also mandate things like microtransactions.

You will notice a lot of publishers have very heavily varied approaches per game, and a lot of that can come from this, since it's not coming out of a centralized team.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
Industry getting all Gordon Gekko on us. For a cognizant gamer it's not too bad however, there's huge amounts of proper games coming out too. EAs of the world can (and should) be safely ignored.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Sounds like "project manager trying to get a big bonus".

I don't think a game designer or programmer would spend their time thinking about this stuff.

A game designer in the world of loot systems are the ones thinking about stuff like drop rate, amount of time spent in activity, etc.

They know the raw data and that's how they design their games.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
An environment has been created that rewards these kind of ideas. Devs understand the reason why their players play, so it seems only natural they'd best know how to exploit that.
 

JHoNNy1OoO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
916
Miami, FL
Yeah I've never understood how people give a pass to the Devs. Especially when a lot of the industry at the highest levels all know one another so they know what they are getting into when deals are being made. They are all to blame equally in my eyes.
 

GrahamGoring

Member
Nov 8, 2017
288
Given that the shop-floor devs rarely* see any money from sales, this is either a pile of hooey or the ideas came from a studio head who actually gets a slice of the pie. Or, of course, they're referring to devs in the F2P sector, which is another kettle of fish altogether.

* Wait, no, whatever is rarer than "rarely".
 

Deleted member 9479

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,953
Pub: so how can we monetize this more? Sell me on this. Publication of your game is on the line.

Dev: um yeah, right ok so... here's a big laundry list of things we could build into the game to charge for. We did a good job showing how much monetization we can cram in right? We are still getting published right?
 
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Nirolak

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
Given that the shop-floor devs rarely* see any money from sales, this is either a pile of hooey or the ideas came from a studio head who actually gets a slice of the pie. Or, of course, they're referring to devs in the F2P sector, which is another kettle of fish altogether.

* Wait, no, whatever is rarer than "rarely".
Independent developers rarely see money, but that's not actually if you're an internal studio working on a big franchise. They do get performance bonuses. There was even a huge lawsuit between Infinity Ward and Activision Blizzard over this, which is why Respawn exists in the first place.
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
I'm not surprised, but I think this is one of the areas where publishers should say no if a dev wants to implement some greedy bullshit scheme. Cause the publisher will get blamed for it anyway.

I think a lot of the Microtransaction shit is just incredibly short sighted. You should always strive for the base package of your game to already be a straight up 10 out of 10. THEN you can start thinking about adding bells and whistles, but too often I feel like the opposite is happening, where we're now getting games that only feel complete when you bought a whole bunch of shit through Microtransactions to the point where I'm not interested in buying the game in the first place.
 

Deleted member 8408

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,648
Given that the shop-floor devs rarely* see any money from sales, this is either a pile of hooey or the ideas came from a studio head who actually gets a slice of the pie. Or, of course, they're referring to devs in the F2P sector, which is another kettle of fish altogether.

* Wait, no, whatever is rarer than "rarely".

So the threat of having to go home to your family and tell them you no longer have a job isn't enough?
 

Mystic Vivi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
199
I wonder what he means with "devs".

Sounds like "project manager trying to get a big bonus".

I don't think a game designer or programmer would spend their time thinking about this stuff.

They are literally the ones making it....

I mean how do you think we come up with clever systems to implement? No offense to the manager but you need a background of many skills to even begin to understand how Microtransactions fire the brain in certain patterns let alone to be able to make your own.

These things go far deeper than most realize. It makes sense that studios are the ones pushing this. It really can't be the opposite.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
I wonder what he means with "devs".

Sounds like "project manager trying to get a big bonus".

I don't think a game designer or programmer would spend their time thinking about this stuff.

Eh no. Sometimes I wonder why people think the publisher and marketing guys or even the project managers are the ones to come up with the MT ideas. The ones making the game know the game systems best and how integration will work. They know the game better than anyone. Of course they are the ines coming up with the transaction formats.

You can send it to the idea that rhey are incentivised with bonuses and that's fair but no way are they innocent. Like how would that be feasible given the level of integration necessary?
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Eh no. Sometimes I wonder why people think the publisher and marketing guys or even the project managers are the ones to come up with the MT ideas. The ones making the game know the game systems best and how integration will work. They know the game better than anyone. Of course they are the ines coming up with the transaction formats.

You can send it to the idea that rhey are incentivised with bonuses and that's fair but no way are they innocent. Like how would that be feasible given the level of integration necessary?
Fair enough.

But its kind of funny to think EA saying whoa whoa stop there DICE, thats too greedy!
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
Yeah I've never understood how people give a pass to the Devs. Especially when a lot of the industry at the highest levels all know one another so they know what they are getting into when deals are being made. They are all to blame equally in my eyes.
Because devs are working class, they are receiving a tiny amount of money from all they are producing. They need their work to eat.
 

GrahamGoring

Member
Nov 8, 2017
288
So the threat of having to go home to your family and tell them you no longer have a job isn't enough?

Honestly, the sort of decisions regarding micro-transactions is SO far above people at the coalface in big box games that they'd be made for us. I've never worked at a place which has asked the dev staff for ways to nickle and dime the public, and I worked in mobile for 4 years. ;)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
They are literally the ones making it....

I mean how do you think we come up with clever systems to implement? No offense to the manager but you need a background of many skills to even begin to understand how Microtransactions fire the brain in certain patterns let alone to be able to make your own.

These things go far deeper than most realize. It makes sense that studios are the ones pushing this. It really can't be the opposite.

Exactly! They understand how the systems work, and how to implement them into their designs. Publishers who own studios, specifically look for and hire these 'brain wired' type developers for specifically catering to this back and forth culture between Pub/Dev for the smartest implementation of such systems.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
That's... not what I expected. I expected pubs to be way more aggressive than devs. Devs do it for the incentives I guess?
Devs do it to get paid, if they're getting a cut of the microtransaction profits. And in cases where the developer and publisher are literally one in the same, there's no concern over a split in earnings.
 

Cinemikel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,433
I would love to see people's reaction if they found out DICE was the one who wanted to put all that garbage in Battlefront 2
 

shotgunbob04

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,383
I'm sure devs have been the guilty party at some point, but I highly doubt they're the main ones to blame in recent games such as Star Wars Battlefront II. I mean, we know EA is on the record for closing down Visceral because they want a game that encourages customers to keep making purchases in-game.

I doubt the bigger publishers such as EA, Activision, or Ubisoft are fighting devs on any sort of lootbox mechanic.