• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
So recently, youtuber nerdSlayer put out a video titled Death of a Game: Wildstar.


In this video, he details Wildstar's troubled development and the subsequent failures that lead to its current "maintenance mode" state (Essentially MMO death). All of nerdSlayer's content is good. I'd highly recommend checking his channel out.

Anyway, in the comments under the video, a former member of the Wildstar dev team, going by the name of Sam Noone (no idea if that's their real name) chimed in with their experience, providing some eye-opening insider information. This is unfortunately yet another case of micromanagement from higher ups determined to stifle creativity and forcing their vision at all costs. I've quoted Sam's comment below:

"Ex Dev on wildstar here. Watched the video and although it was quiet informative, I just wanted to chime in on some of the key factors on why this game was a huge flop.
I worked on the game for 5+ years and let me tell you.. This games was destined to fail wayyy before there was any issues with servers or not enough updates.
Development on this project was a nightmare. The real Development time frame was closer to 10/11 years. Coming onto the project at the 5 year mark I soon realized that the leads and big boys had no fucking clue what a good game was and they could not commit to any idea. Too many cooks in the kitchen that can't cook anything other than Mayo and Beef Jerky sandwiches... Look for the double meaning in that. It's there.
One of the most prevalent issues with the game that I noticed was bad direction from top down. People like Tim Cain specifically made way more problems than they were worth. Honestly the guy was a total dick. Awful to work with and almost nothing he "did" ended up in the game. His lack of leardership I would say was one of the reasons why the first 4-5 years of the game were almost completely thrown out. Literally...
Then you have an art director who couldn't keep his nose out of anything. His selfishness drove off many of the best artists in the company including cory loftis. Literally... Cory Loftis LEFT the game which is based off of his style almost entirely because of this guy. This same art director was also responsible for hijacking the story and overall vision of the game as well. Wondering why there wasn't more raids and dungeons? Because the ART DIRECTOR thought several ALREADY MADE LEVELS didn't fit the story anymore... So they threw them away... He also made calls on gameplay... Which... is a hole other nightmare.

The gameplay was once good... I would say around the 7 year mark. 1v1 combat was very fun at this point and each class felt very unique and fun. Unfortunately most of that was thrown away and replaced with alot of new stuff that was just NOT tested enough. I repeat... most of what launched in Wild star combat wise was BARELY tested. Stuff like Warplots was broken to shit from start to finish. The designers leading WarPlots were absolute lazy trash and would knowingly put in broken systems and call them done just to appease their bosses. The only reason that warplots was even REMOTELY playable on launch was because of some amazing talent on the 3D prop team. I am not joking.. Artists LEANRNED HOW TO SCRIPT TO FIX THIS CRAP.
Pvp in general was absolutely broken. I didn't even work on paper let alone work in a multi million dollar game. The idea of telegraphs is pretty straight forward and seems to just work for most cases in combat.... except in any fight larger that has more than two characters per team... Attack telegraphs drawing on the ground is very clear when you have a small amount of people fighting but in medium to large pvp fights ( pretty much every fight that matters) the entire ground becomes a multi colored disco dance floor. Casual to moderate gamers were like deer in headlights during the VERY FEW playtests that were had for larger pvp battles. SO MUCH FEEDBACK was given by the teams that participated in these tests and almost nothing was fixed about it.
The leadership was god awful. Proof of this was that most of the BEST things in the games that players loved the most such as Double Jump and Hoverboards were things that were never planned for or schedules by leads. Those were passion projects. Double Jump was made by an ARTIST. That artist got in trouble for making double jump and eventually fired for other reasons. Never got credit either. Hoverboards were snuck in by an animator... He got written up for secretly working on hoverboards in his freetime with other coworkers. The place was a prison of ideas and everyone was getting shanked for even THINKING that they WANTED to think of something to improve the game.

Oh did I mention mandatory Crunch? We would crunch for months at a time. Mandatory. I remember working from 10am to 3 am everynight 6 days a week for about 3 months straight. And I got a talking to once because I was 10 minutes late to work. ONCE. Because Jeremy Gafney saw me coming in late. Everyone working on this game was absolutely DONE with the BS and it shows. The love died way before this game launched. No one in the studio really wanted to play the game. And then we shifted to try to cater to the hardcore audience?! ( this was the version on launch. The hardcore not for pansies mmo) During a time where pretty much almost every successful game was being carried hard by more casual players.

I can go on but... I think you get the picture. These devs thought they were clever enough to ignore pretty much every other successful business model and all other mmorpgs to make this.. There you have it..."

So what are your thoughts? Did any of you play Wildstar? Were the issues apparent from the beginning? Conversely, have any of you worked on a dev team that had issues with controlling higher-ups? How did that go? I think we can learn a lot from this story.

Banish me to maintenance mode hell if old.
 

Phantom

Writer at Jeux.ca
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,446
Canada
I did play it in beta but like almost every other MMO, it felt very bland. I liked the style but ended up dropping it early.

I think for a MMO to succeed, you need to drastically change the formula. And keep it updated with fresh, interesting content.
 

blitzblake

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
3,171
I mean, there's no way in knowing they really worked there... but for someone they did, they sure love throwing their colleagues under the bus.
 

Jenoss

Member
Oct 26, 2017
436
When i went on playing this game on the first year (and on the many cbt) i really really thought that great ideas was there, but something, on the core of the game itself was not working..
Glad to know what it didn't, after soo many years..
 

Risev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,406
Meh remember to take all this sort of stuff with a huge grain of salt. I remember all the rumors surrounding Mercury Steam's studio and its director from a supposed previous employee during and after the development of Lords of Shadow 2, and how everyone jumped on the director due to baseless rumors only for all of that shit to be discredited eventually. Remember, even if someone is truly a previous employee, they also usually have an agenda and can quite easily fabricate shit to fit into their narrative.
 
OP
OP
Cyanity

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
On the contrary, they seem to mostly have praise for their actual colleagues. It's the leads/management that they are shitting on.

This is my take as well. And considering how common it is to hear horror stories about controlling higher-ups in the gaming industry, I'm inclined to believe the commenter.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
Enjoyed the beta, liked the various side abilities like exploration etc but it all felt too much like WoW. Needed more interesting features to make it stand out.
 

garion333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,722
I played quite a bit of Wildstar and was profoundly disappointed in the direction the game went before and after launch. They had a great combat system for the time, but the pivot toward the hardcore was absolutely the wrong way to take the game. As their subs dwindled they continued down the same path, which made no sense and still makes no sense since the game is effectively dead.

So while the ex-employee may be airing out grievances and "have an agenda" (sigh), what they said matches a lot of what the players experienced in-game and on their forums. Wildstar could've been so good, but someone or some group of someones in management clearly thought looking back was better than looking forward and the game suffered because of it.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
Everything he said sounds pretty true. The telegraph system did leave me with a deer in the headlights feeling sometimes. Plus, the scuttlebutt around this game was that the management was god awful and the working environment was miserable.

I feel like Wildstar is a good lesson in remembering that sometimes seeing the words, "The devs that worked on <insert your favorite game here>!" should also serve as a reminder that maybe there's a reason they don't work for that company anymore and maybe that reason is that they were a huge dick.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
On the contrary, they seem to mostly have praise for their actual colleagues. It's the leads/management that they are shitting on.

"The designers leading WarPlots were absolute lazy trash and would knowingly put in broken systems and call them done just to appease their bosses. " isn't exactly leads/management.
 

Reddaye

Member
Mar 24, 2018
2,903
New Brunswick, Canada
FFXIV has done well without changing the formula at all.

FFXIV is also available on consoles, and carries a very strong name on it's marquee. That's certainly helped with it's success (also being a good game doesn't hurt).

Wildstar suffers from what every WoW clone theme park MMO has always suffered from for me: why would I abandon thousands of hours in Warcraft to go play another game that's essentially the same thing with less content? There wasn't enough there for me when I tried it out in beta, and all of the people I know who went hard on it Day One ended up quitting after a month and eventually returning to WoW. There's a special kind of connection with players that Warcraft has created in the past decade. It's kind for a lot of people (like myself) to step away from that for whats basically the same experience. Worse yet they catered to the niche audience that wants 40 player raids and neck snapping difficulty above all else. There's a reason WoW continued to grow remarkably as they stripped away those features and streamlined the experience to just the right balance in WotLK.

Just my opinion anyway.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
FFXIV is also available on consoles, and carries a very strong name on it's marquee. That's certainly helped with it's success (also being a good game doesn't hurt).

Wildstar suffers from what every WoW clone theme park MMO has always suffered from for me: why would I abandon thousands of hours in Warcraft to go play another game that's essentially the same thing with less content? There wasn't enough there for me when I tried it out in beta, and all of the people I know who went hard on it Day One ended up quitting after a month and eventually returning to WoW. There's a special kind of connection with players that Warcraft has created in the past decade. It's kind for a lot of people (like myself) to step away from that for whats basically the same experience. Worse yet they catered to the niche audience that wants 40 player raids and neck snapping difficulty above all else. There's a reason WoW continued to grow remarkably as they stripped away those features and streamlined the experience to just the right balance in WotLK.

Just my opinion anyway.

Yeah that's all true. I don't care for WoW clones because I'd rather just play WoW in the end.
 

TCi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
661
My favorite MMO of all time. So sad it never blossomed into what it could have been. Raids (except Redmoon) was some of the most entertaining thing I have done in any MMO's to date. Much thanks to the combat and movement system. Played almost all classes and roles. Such a fun ride. Too bad about the content and dev issues. :(
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
Nerdslayer has done a lot of good vids like this and are worth a watch, the guy puts in his time to see what really happened instead of coming off as someone who gives broad retellings of history lacking substance.
 

Shahadan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,970
Trying so hard to sell it to TEH HARDCOREZ back then felt so weird and stupid to me....it could only fail
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,403
SĂŁo Paulo, Brazil
I picked it up at launch and played about one hour of it. Even in such a short time it was already obvious that the game was a complete mess. Never went back to it.
 

borghe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,112
REALLY loved the game mechanics. From a mechanical perspective (especially combat) the game was wonderful.

but man... the aesthetics were as boring as they could be. Subbed for about 3 months but after 3 weeks or so I really couldn't explain to myself why I was still playing. Absolutely nothing keeping me in the game.

I feel FFXIV was almost the exact opposite. Absolutely bland and by the numbers mechanics bringing almost NOTHING to the genre (though being able to play all classes on one character was particularly awesome). But the aesthetics, story, and additional content were SO FRIGGIN GOOD that despite the boring "been there done that" mechanics I always played to see what was coming next.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
I remember playing this at launch and just never being thrilled with the combat. The line about 'too many cooks' definitely seemed true about this game, and many of the MMOs chasing that WoW high around the time. A shame how a few key leads can ruin 10 years of work.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,722
FFXIV is also available on consoles, and carries a very strong name on it's marquee. That's certainly helped with it's success (also being a good game doesn't hurt).

Wildstar suffers from what every WoW clone theme park MMO has always suffered from for me: why would I abandon thousands of hours in Warcraft to go play another game that's essentially the same thing with less content?

FFXIV has done well without changing the formula at all.

The one thing that FF14 has done and has done well is making sure to keep coming out with new content. That one thing seems to be what all the "WoW clone theme park MMO"s have missed on. Just booting a game with less content then WoW had at launch, let alone what it has built up over the years since, and then just taking a "break". I love subscription mmos but you need to provide an ongoing reason to keep people playing them. In fact that is why I like sub based mmos more then the alternative since it prioritizes keeping people playing to continue making money. As opposed to making the money from the original sale, which prioritizes cycling in new players or cash shop purchases which prioritizes whale hunting.

People have various opinions on why the theme park MMOs since WoW have mostly failed, anything from subscriptions not working or them being too hardcore/not hardcore enough. I still maintain it is all a content issue. I believe that subs can work, and that having the "older" more "hardcore" things can work along with going less hardcore as well, but what absolutely cannot work is not giving people enough "game". I believe FF14 is a good example of this. It (Realm Reborn) launched being a worse and having less game in every way then WoW did at it's launch aside from graphics and the profession system, but it didn't slack off with keeping people busy and keeps putting out new stuff.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,923
I did play it in beta but like almost every other MMO, it felt very bland. I liked the style but ended up dropping it early.

I think for a MMO to succeed, you need to drastically change the formula. And keep it updated with fresh, interesting content.

IMO, the most successful MMOs since WoW are the ones that HAVEN'T changed the formula. EVE Online being the one exception. The biggest MMO failures are the ones that tried to do what you are asking.

An MMO doesn't need drastic changes to the formula to find success, they just need a meaningful gimmick that separates it from the rest. I will agree with content though, but ultimately, if you can't attract the attention, you won't survive long enough to push out meaningful content anyways so it ultimately ends up as a moot point in the long run.
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,559
It failed because it was another subscription based theme park MMO without a license anyone cared about. These types of MMOs will never do well again. Ever. It could have been a 10/10 game and everyone would still just sub to WoW, Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,376
Written up for working on a hoverboard? really now, i remember hearing how one Rare dev worked on Multiplayer in his spare time, good thing he didn't get told off.
 
OP
OP
Cyanity

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
It failed because it was another subscription based theme park MMO without a license anyone cared about. These types of MMOs will never do well again. Ever. It could have been a 10/10 game and everyone would still just sub to WoW, Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls.

You should watch the video in the OP before summing Wildstar's failure as simply due to its theme park mmo nature.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Games become what they are from the extra hours put in its development by passionate devs that have cool ideas, the thought about being written up for exactly that tells me their management are a bunch of morons, but its unfortunately more common than you think.
 

oakenhild

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,869
Trying so hard to sell it to TEH HARDCOREZ back then felt so weird and stupid to me....it could only fail

Yea, the game was quite fun, but the difficulty wall and grind was just way to extreme for all but the smallest group of hardcore players. It didn't make sense to focus on that small group of hardcore players then, and it doesn't in hindsight.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
A major reason MMO games like this fail is too little variety in archetypes and races in comparision to other games. You can't just roll out knight, mage, and archer clones with human, elf, and orc/dwarf races when every other MMO has had those locked down for ages. FFXIV is really good in this regard.

They also started as a subscription model which is basically a death sentence if you are not EVE, WoW or FFXIV.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,263
My girlfriend and I were huge fans of Wildstar and played it for awhile. I loved a lot about that game but there just wasn't enough reason to stick around. Reading about how they were always stuck in development hell doesn't surprise me at all.
 

Tension Mask

Member
Oct 28, 2017
978
FFXIV has done well without changing the formula at all.

Indeed. And ARR succeeded by learning even harder into the WoW formula than original FFXIV did. But, FFXIV:ARR has the huge advantage of having the Final Fantasy IP, and the insane production values that few developers could match. For an 'upstart' MMORPG, it's a hard sell to justify playing a sub-par WoW clone rather than WoW itself.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,028
A major reason MMO games like this fail is too little variety in archetypes and races in comparision to other games. You can't just roll out knight, mage, and archer clones with human, elf, and orc/dwarf races when every other MMO has had those locked down for ages. FFXIV is really good in this regard.

They also started as a subscription model which is basically a death sentence if you are not EVE, WoW or FFXIV.
Pretty much, why play the trinity in a whole new game when you got history with a current one. I really hate the trinity
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
I liked the game when I played it, combat and dungeons were fun though didn't get far because there weren't much people playing it, I wonder if it's possible for them to bring it to console, there are some MMOs that found success here.
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
I really don't think it is a simple as adding more servers to a realm to make all problems go away
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,954
These inside the dev drama backstories are always so interesting to me. Some true petty high school drama tier stuff.