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Examining P.T. [Silent Hills]: Plot Analysis, Gender Norms, and Media Hysteria
- Thread starter Finale Fireworker
- Start date
OP
OP
Thank you so much. This is extremely high praise and better than anything I could have hoped to hear. I talk about video games like this because I have a deep love for the medium and think its artistic accomplishments are often downplayed and undersung. My original motivation for making threads like these, way back in 2015, was to spur intelligent and academic conversation about video games where that kind of conversation might not exist. Now I mostly do it because I enjoy it, but to know some of my original intention is reaching people is so reassuring.
Silent Hill is one of those series that had way more potential than it ever got a chance to live up to. Maybe people like me wanted the series to be something different than it was, or maybe the people making the series had different ideas for what made the games good, but the fact we'll probably never see the series on the level of Silent Hill 2 again is just sad. I know somebody could always make a new series but it's tough to know this series holds so much unrealized potential.
It's one of those things that a new IP will never fully capture.
That's really cool, I never knew that. Seeing how other media influenced somethings helps give you a glimpse into the creative process. Authorial intent is unknowable but that makes clues like this really cool. Thank you for bringing it up!
I've actually started linking them in my Bio. I have one other repost ("remastered thread") planned from 2015 that I'm going to post on Era but it needs some work still. Moving forward, hopefully the new title format will be less off-putting to passerbys.
I think these assessments are all cleverly made and well put and well extracted from what was in the game, but to be honest, the impression I got was more that Kojima thought about a situation in which violence would break out in a normal life, and so he took these things. Remember this is done by the same guy who thought we'd be a ashamed of our words and deeds by not seeing his masterful vision behind Quiet; a blatantly sexualized character whose sympathetic backstory of stupid was supposed to justify having her wear almost nothing while performing military actions. I don't think the artistic intent was to make you see P.T. as a game with a message on this subject matter, it was just a means to an end for Kojima to set the tone for a horror story and mask his upcoming product Silent Hills.
Like... he's not aware of this outview on social norms I don't think, he just looked at how the norms are and created the plot from it.
one of the games why I picked a PS4, so it sucked when that got cancelled!
I don't see why the concept (obviously not the name) could be resurrected at Kojima's new studio and get in contact with Del Toro and Reedus again...
I don't see why the concept (obviously not the name) could be resurrected at Kojima's new studio and get in contact with Del Toro and Reedus again...
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I get that. I don't even disagree - Kojima's modern output doesn't really correlate with the narrative presented in P.T. and I have a lot of personal apprehension about Death Stranding. We've talked about it a little already, but where I really stand is here:
1) Kojima has told stories and explored concepts relating to fatherhood, conditioning, and contextual duty in the first three Metal Gear Solid games (and to a lesser extent Metal Gear 1+2, which are still thematically impressive for the standard of storytelling of the 8-16 bit era). Whether these ideas were prioritized by Kojima or Tomokazu Fukushima (who left after MGS3) isn't clear, but they've been present enough in the past that their reappearance would not be unusual.
2) I think a Kojima vision moderated by a Del Toro vision would have turned out better than something like MGSV. Del Toro is brought in a lot as a creative consultant for all kinds of work because his influence and suggestions are highly respected. I don't think Del Toro's contributions would have been marginal in any sense. If we assume they both went into the project with equal control, I think it would have been very different from any singularly developed Kojima game in the past.
3) Authorial intention isn't really meaningful with a final product as open to interpretation as P.T. - it's not something we can ever know. All we can do is interpret the text we have and use what information presented to come to some sort of conclusion. Even if this isn't what Kojima & Co set out to make, it's still easily interpreted as such, meaning it's what they've made. The work stands on its own, you know?
2) I think a Kojima vision moderated by a Del Toro vision would have turned out better than something like MGSV. Del Toro is brought in a lot as a creative consultant for all kinds of work because his influence and suggestions are highly respected. I don't think Del Toro's contributions would have been marginal in any sense. If we assume they both went into the project with equal control, I think it would have been very different from any singularly developed Kojima game in the past.
3) Authorial intention isn't really meaningful with a final product as open to interpretation as P.T. - it's not something we can ever know. All we can do is interpret the text we have and use what information presented to come to some sort of conclusion. Even if this isn't what Kojima & Co set out to make, it's still easily interpreted as such, meaning it's what they've made. The work stands on its own, you know?
But I completely understand where you're coming from. I agree with your skepticism. I've said before that part of the reason P.T. shines so enduringly is because it never had a chance to be ruined with a follow-up. Silent Hill, as a series, wishes it could be that lucky.
We also don't know anything particular behind its development really. It lists the names of a bunch of leads that worked on it including Kojima and Del Toro, but we actually don't know if any ghost writer worked on this one, like Shuyo Murata or whoever worked on past MGS titles, or maybe even Del Toro. There's the off-chance that a lot of these ideas you mentioned in your OP are actually intended to be thought of to this level of deconstruction, and also the chance that Kojima was in a bliss, because like all writers not all of hits writing has hit home but from the track-record it's true, he does have it in him sometimes.
Just wait until Kojima finishes watching The Return. He already saw the first episode and loved it. Who knows what crazy ideas he'll come up withOn the topic of women in Kojima's games, didn't Strangelove in MGSV create the AI's the became The Patriots? Or am I misremembering?
Anyway. excellent thread Finale Fireworker. PT is one of my favorite things in fiction ever. It got me into David Lynch, for wich I have to mention the obvious comparisons there are with PT and Lynch's work (aside from the sense of dread from both works).
And that's the fetus which is very, very similar to Lynch's baby in Eraserhead:
Interestingly enough, thematically, the baby serves as a representation of the main character's fears of not being able to achieve his rather mundane dreams, and is eventually what leads him to (apparently) die in a pretty surreal way:
Considering how much into surrealism and magic realism I am, and how Kojima going weird all the way in Death Stranding, I'm pretty stoked. I hope that afterwards, Kojima and Del Toro work on a horror game. Hope that you see some of Lynch's movies, Fireworker! I'm sure you'd like them.
Oh daaaamn, Kojima being inspired by Episode 8 would be nuts.
That demo changed how I preceive horror movies and horror games.
PT changed the genre aswell, the game had so much potential .. I am legit sad that it was cancelled, even more sad that I am not able to replay PT.. and so many friends of mine never got to play it.
PT changed the genre aswell, the game had so much potential .. I am legit sad that it was cancelled, even more sad that I am not able to replay PT.. and so many friends of mine never got to play it.
damn...excellent writeup.
you're spot-on about PT's influence - we already saw that breathe new life into RE7 - but i'd not given much thought to the core concepts 2 shared with this game (1 as well, and 3 as an extension of the decisions & failures of 1's protagonist, at that), much less why they'd be so very interesting to kojima & del toro.
i cannot stress enough just how much of a loss us not getting this game is - that team, revitalizing/stepping up this dead franchise, with junji ito's input as well? my god, that could've been such a perfect storm.
blew my mind how many gaming dreams came true in 2015 (shenmue 3, last guardian, FF VII remake etc) but i'd trade so many games to have seen this through, all the more so for your observations here.
you're spot-on about PT's influence - we already saw that breathe new life into RE7 - but i'd not given much thought to the core concepts 2 shared with this game (1 as well, and 3 as an extension of the decisions & failures of 1's protagonist, at that), much less why they'd be so very interesting to kojima & del toro.
i cannot stress enough just how much of a loss us not getting this game is - that team, revitalizing/stepping up this dead franchise, with junji ito's input as well? my god, that could've been such a perfect storm.
blew my mind how many gaming dreams came true in 2015 (shenmue 3, last guardian, FF VII remake etc) but i'd trade so many games to have seen this through, all the more so for your observations here.
Love when people dig into the deeper meaning of games , I only briefly played the game and just assumed it was your usual ghost story horror game .
I am not familiar with the silent hill games , never underestimate Kojima and his crazy ideas . So sad it got cancelled , based on this small teaser the final game would have been amazing .
Someone should tweet this to Kojima, would love if he could validate his themes .
I am not familiar with the silent hill games , never underestimate Kojima and his crazy ideas . So sad it got cancelled , based on this small teaser the final game would have been amazing .
Someone should tweet this to Kojima, would love if he could validate his themes .
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I'm guessing that Konami wouldn't be too happy about that.
Yeah, but who cares really. Spiritual sequels/remakes are made all the time. As long as the overall skin is different enough they can't do shit about it if they ever attempted to.
Yeah, I'd love them to make a spiritual sequel to PT.
They don't need the Silent Hill branding — heck, it might be creatively liberating to not be bound by that IP's conventions.
I just think there's real potential here for a psychological thriller where the gameplay hook is the AI director noting what you observe and don't observe, allowing the game to piecemeal out the story.
They don't need the Silent Hill branding — heck, it might be creatively liberating to not be bound by that IP's conventions.
I just think there's real potential here for a psychological thriller where the gameplay hook is the AI director noting what you observe and don't observe, allowing the game to piecemeal out the story.
Great analysis, I really enjoyed reading it!
Hopefully they get to take another stab (likely as a new IP) at the themes and atmosphere they were trying to create with PT.
Hopefully they get to take another stab (likely as a new IP) at the themes and atmosphere they were trying to create with PT.
Yknow
Something talked about in this thread, and brought up by Finale, is the overarching theme in the MGS games-That is a patriarchy through both Big Boss and Solidus, about being shaped by a person who you don't necessarily care for, about who you are and what you are to be, and overcoming it and being your own person. That despite all that, you don't have to follow in that persons footsteps. I've talked about it in the past, but my father is a deadbeat alcoholic. An asshole of the highest regard. And to me, MGS was a game that taught me how to escape that, that you shouldn't be tied to something because it's 'blood ties' or because that person raised you. I effectively don't care for that man, and my family is always baffled that I don't. And I think that's ok, that I don't care for that person because of the pain they caused me and my family.
Say what you will about Kojima, but the themes he has put in his games, are head above many other games. No other games tackle what he has, and to me, growing up a kid who cared a bit too much about games, it really helped me understand my position in life and my ability to choose.
Something talked about in this thread, and brought up by Finale, is the overarching theme in the MGS games-That is a patriarchy through both Big Boss and Solidus, about being shaped by a person who you don't necessarily care for, about who you are and what you are to be, and overcoming it and being your own person. That despite all that, you don't have to follow in that persons footsteps. I've talked about it in the past, but my father is a deadbeat alcoholic. An asshole of the highest regard. And to me, MGS was a game that taught me how to escape that, that you shouldn't be tied to something because it's 'blood ties' or because that person raised you. I effectively don't care for that man, and my family is always baffled that I don't. And I think that's ok, that I don't care for that person because of the pain they caused me and my family.
Say what you will about Kojima, but the themes he has put in his games, are head above many other games. No other games tackle what he has, and to me, growing up a kid who cared a bit too much about games, it really helped me understand my position in life and my ability to choose.
OP
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I relate exactly to what you're saying. My father was also an extremely negative influence on my life. He and I haven't spoken in over a year now.
I get a lot of pressure from other members of my family to value our theoretical relationship of father and son over our actual lifelong experience. It took me a long time to realize I didn't need to do that. My father was my only male role model growing up, and his influence was extremely negative, so his example of how to live was always more of a warning shot than an illuminated path.
Sometimes it weighs on me because I am past the age my father was when he had me: his first and only son. I wonder what my father was thinking when he was my age, and how he perceived me, and I think about how that perception changed as we both got older and it became clear I wasn't growing up the way he expected.
Movies like The Iron Giant did a lot to shape my image of fatherhood and masculinity. I can see why Metal Gear Solid reached you the way it did. Lessons from fiction sometimes get right to the heart of our problems because our guard is lower. It's not real, it's just a story, so you're not as defensive to something it's trying to teach you. By the time it hits you on an emotional level, you might not even know why, you just know it meant something to you.
I'm not really sure about this part other than the connection between being killed and being born. It could be that the man's suicide initiates his rebirth into Silent Hill, or maybe it creates some sort of doppelganger (connecting to the line the paper bag speaks: "The only me is me, are you sure the only you is you?"). It's definitely some creepy dialog and you can interpret it symbolically but I admit I've never really rationalized anything conclusive about this line.
All I can really say is that it connects the man's death to birth. Whatever it might mean beyond that is a mystery to me too.
Well it took me more than a week, but I finally finished your analysis and all I have to say is great work! I think you hit the nail on the head re: themes and did a great job extrapolating the elements of the game and contextualising them.
Can't wait for your next thread :)
Can't wait for your next thread :)
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Thank you, Overflow. I really appreciate that people are still coming back to read the thread after several weeks. I'm glad you liked it!
Sorry to bump this but I dunno if this was worth it's own thread and though this one would be more appropiated for it. It's just about a small thing just found that probably never knew till now that I found pretty cool.
wonder what else can be found now that it's being datamined.
wonder what else can be found now that it's being datamined.
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That's really cool. I love that the game is still yielding little secrets despite its size and age. Considering this is all we'll get, every tiny new detail is nourishing to me.
I fucking knew I saw something. I've played it so many times through and through and notice something almost every single time. Changing flashlight colors, dying before the picture section, Lisa following you into the bathroom, Lisa looking at you from the top floor, Lisa outside the window by the phone, Lisa at the bottom of the staircase, Lisa at the corner of the hallway, all of it is just insane. I wonder how much more is there in code that we haven't encountered.
Finale Fireworker, have you done more analysis like this recently? I loved this one and the one on TLOU.
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These are the only other ones I've posted on Era. I haven't had the time to make a new thread like this since I became a mod, unfortunately. I've been thinking of remaking the Last of Us one though because UC4 has a giraffe in it too in a very specific place and I thought the thread could use an update.
The narrative purity of Luigi's Mansion and telling stories with mechanics
Metal Gear Solid 1 and immersing a player through torture
Honestly, knowing somebody remembers the Last of Us thread motivates me to update it and post it here. I may do that.
Damn you, mod duties!
I hope you do! Love any academic/philosophy about games, and yours is great.
I hope you do! Love any academic/philosophy about games, and yours is great.
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Sorry for not being more in-depth with my compliment, but the ideas about masculinity, patriarchy, conservative radio, etc. was something that I'd never consider. As others have echoed, it kinda makes the pain of Silent HIlls' cancellation worse but still grateful for the write up!
Played through this again because I had a guest over. I was still completely unnerved. Such a pure horror experience unlike anything in the world at all. What really gets me is just how creepy it is WITHOUT needing gameplay mechanics like shooting or survival mechanics. The pictures on the wall, turning the same corner, even the act of walking backwards evokes fear of demonic forces that make you FEEL as if you are committing something unearthly.
I am so sad that this game is gone. I pray one day Kojima goes back to it. Was it ever going to be a game on its own, or was it always meant to be a teaser for a cinematic silent hills game?
I am so sad that this game is gone. I pray one day Kojima goes back to it. Was it ever going to be a game on its own, or was it always meant to be a teaser for a cinematic silent hills game?
It's incredible how much the team did with just a corridor and a couple of side rooms. All the pursuit of open-worlds that whilst incredible, has meant moments like this don't come along often.
Did it get revealed who played Lisa in the end? Outside of Norman Reedus I don't know who any of the other actors were going to be.
Did it get revealed who played Lisa in the end? Outside of Norman Reedus I don't know who any of the other actors were going to be.
Just heard a bang downstairs while I was reading this. Feeling kind of on edge now 😂. This game would have been something else had it have been made.
It was intended to be a teaser, but we don't really know what the main game was going to be. They never really discussed the actual mechanics or story because Kojima was busy completing MGSV at the time and then of course before it was completed he was fired and that meant the end of Silent Hills. So it very well could've played similarly to the teaser, but we'll likely never know.
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I'm sure there is not. The script I refer to in the OP refers to the script of PT — which obviously we take from the game itself. At the stage of development Silent Hills was canceled I bet there wasn't any semblance of a completed script. I don't think we've ever heard anything about how far along it was, but my guess has always been preproduction.
Always pleased to see this thread bumped. I always find new typos, though.
I just read this. Absolutely fantastic. I'm hoping Death Standing deals with some of the themes they had planned for Silent Hills.
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I wonder this a lot. It's hard to guess from the trailers. The only thing that stands out to me so far is the portrayal of a male pregnancy with the baby being almost parasitic inside Norman Reedus. This could relate to body autonomy in some interesting ways but there's no way to tell from the trailers. It's interesting for sure.
Thank you very much. This one gets bumped periodically, which always makes me really happy. This was before I became staff here and I almost never have time to make threads like this anymore. My current thread about media politics in general is really the first I've done in a really long time. It is very rewarding for me to see people still like the post after all this time.
I'm legit freaked out right now, I was playing this last night with a few friends over that had never experienced this before and all of a sudden this thread gets bumped....creepy.
don't touch that dial now, we're just getting started.
don't touch that dial now, we're just getting started.
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Looks like it's officially been five years since P.T. released - as of August 12th.
😢 🕯
Might play it today.
😢 🕯
Might play it today.
The game could've been finished and released by now.
Oh what could've been.
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In another universe, this bump was to commemorate the two year anniversary of the release of Silent Hills.
Agony.